Steve

What poodle fan said

Sounds like a nomination to me . www.mdbaawards.net.au

Anybody who breeds large quantities of dogs with primary regard to profit and secondary to nil regard to dog wellbeing and the betterment of the breed as a whole. That is my definition. But thats not mine nor is it the agreed definition by every single group who attended the round table and agreed to fight it so where does that leave us ? You think Im fighting to stop your derfinition of a puppy farm - I think you are fighting mine. We fight together and if new regs and new laws come in who will they be legislating against - yours or mine or the 198 in between? . Life would be so much easier if we had a definition or at least some new terminology we could all agree on. But its still groundhog day.

Chill out sandgrubber- one thing for someone to take a crack at a public figure but you have to play by the rules here too. No personal attacks .if you dont play the game properly the unpire will send you off.

Why? Sounds good to me.

the chances that her pup will get PRA is remote - different dna tests for each breed and you need at least two carriers of the same recessive - not likely

This demonstrates a basic difference in start point. Some focus on unwanted dogs and how many are killed but even though I wish that didnt happen I see killed as dead and not suffering. Some people need to focus on that but my focus is on preventing animals from suffering while they are alive . Not just suffering due to rotten care and living conditions but also through poor selection and breeding choices. Every day in England there is news of a puppy farm being raided and the RSPCA over there is hated .When interviewed regarding the success of their licencing system one of the heads in charge told us that people simply went underground and found more innovative ways around it .They felt they lost registration and license revenue and dogs still suffered. in australia as long as there is a demand there will be someone who will see money and supply what people will buy including rescue .if rescue didnt know they could find homes for the puppies born in their care they wouldnt do it. One rescue saved pregnant dogs and whelped over 200 puppies in one year - not sure if its counted that she sometimes makes them pregnant her self and claims they were pregnant when they arrive. Not gossip or hearsay - fact. Word on the grapevine is that another big Asian buyer is currently in negotiation with a PIAA registered agent to purchase thousands of puppies for their pet shop via Australian breeders just as Dan Mcdougall has done - however, they are happy to take them with or with out papers in larger numbers .This will mean both registered and non registered and cross bred breeders will have larger export markets opened to them and still stay with in the laws and within their codes of conduct . you cant compare other countries in ths equation as we are the only one other than NZ where you can export a pup today and it can be in its pet shop or new home tonight - because we have no rabies. There is just so so much which goes on behind the scenes,stuff we havent even touched on here and if we are going to ever be able to bring down numbers killed and numbers suffering we need to share this info with each other and work together under a realistic moderate legal strategic plan .if we keep going off half cocked and yelling all kinds of stuff which is easily disproved we wont get anywhere. we cant be seen to condone illegal or redneck methods or propoganda and sensationalism or we wont be heard .

Yes that's what I thought, Nic. If it had just been a puppy shot on a breeder's website I wouldnt have thought anything of it, but her name and the office of PM attached to it for the purposes of promoting something - looks really bad, doesnt it. Hi Raz I am one of those "activist nutjobs" We rescue puppy farm dogs (and others) - I have seen it all . I have seen the trauma, the damage beyond belief to a dogs mental state after years of confinement, and the disease and ill health. Fortunately we rehabilitate and rehome. I personally think it is a slap in the face for the MDBA and all ethical registered breeders who promote healthy purebred dogs. It is also a slap in the face for breed rescue and rescue in general. The purchase of this puppy reeks of total ignorance,lack of education, and irreverence to the plight of thousands of dogs pts each year. It doesnt feel to me that our face has been slapped. I dont see why if some people choose a cross bred that its our failure. I choose purebreds and I promote my reasons for that but it doesnt bother me if someone wants to own a cross bred mutt. Im not sure they would qualify for one of our member's pups anyway as we like ours to go to homes where families have time to spend with them and they are stable. Nor do I think its a slap in the face for rescue as some people like me wouldnt consider a rescue dog . Having compassion and caring about the amount of dogs being PTS each year doesnt always have to equate to being prepared to take one into your home. I dont care what sort of dog anyone else owns or wants to breed as long as their dogs dont suffer and in all honesty I cant see why I should.

Aahh, that is the question isn't it? I would think that if a place is being run for the keeping and breeding of animals for commercial purposes then it is a farm. So if the 'farm' animals happen to be dogs does that make it a puppy farm? I guess in the strict sense of the word it does. If it is kept clean and tidy and complying with all the relevant rules and regulations then it is a perfectly legal business and attacking the 'farmers' just makes us look like fanatics in the eyes of the general public. I don't really know the answer to the question to be honest, it's a bit like - what is a backyard breeder? We are still stuck in ground hog day. According to the RSPCA Australia a puppy farm is a place which breeds dogs in substandard conditions.Their motivations, their numbers or how many they breed dont count - problem is there are about 200 definitions and everyone who wants to shut down puppy farms has a different idea of what that is - so when I say shut down puppy farms then some people think I mean non registered breeders, or commercial breeder or any of the other approx 198 definitions .We end up being lumped in with the rednecks, crimminals a loonies who have no credibility so it impacts on ours.

But what is a puppy farm?

:thumbsup: So where do you find a constitutional lawyer and how much do they cost ?

Got a reference for that ? OK, here we go The domestic dog: its evolution, behaviour, and interactions with people By James Serpell notes higher levels of 'problem' and fearful behaviours in pups not whelped in domestic environments (try page 89-91) You can read it online. Behavioural effects of differential early experience in the dog M.W. Foxa, D. Stelznera Scott and Fuller seem to be the most frequently quoted authors on this. ETA: Eureka.. found it. Link to abstract thank you. Ill have a better look later when I have more time. that abstract talks about it between 3 and 6 months doesnt it - unless I rushed through and missed something.Ill go back later

Got a reference for that ? UQ Study touches on it but let me hunt for it. I havent seen any which gives much on up to three wekks but lots after 3 weeks . Most breeders would handle them a little before 3 weeks when they are checking them and cleaning etc but they are born blind and deaf so its very limited even when they are in the middle of your house. there are loads of studies though that talk about puppy socialisation over 21 days - gotta remember when they talk socialisation they are also talking staying with Mum and the litter as well as humans http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/puppysocialisation1 http://www.sciencemag.org/content/133/3457/1016.short http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html http://www.nwk9.com/dehasse_pupdev.htm

Got a reference for that ?

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Oodles can have up to 69 different coat combinations and all of the other genes can mean thousands of different combinations in every dog which makes it impossible to predict what management requirements will be needed as every single dog will be different . Some families can live with any dog of any type but being able to predict what a dog will need to remain healthy and happy and match that to what suits you and your lifestyle means there is less risk that either you or the dog will not be able to live together as happily as possible for ever after. It seems rather a wasted effort to put in time and energy and ask yourself what type of dog best suits my lifestyle and then choose one which is not able to be predicted. Because of the volume of puppies bred ,commercial breeders sometimes see their stud animals as stock and there is a higher risk that there is no post sale support or that they are as motivated to be sure that the dog is suited to the buyer’s lifestyle. The need to cover costs and make profits can create a higher than average potential to see a compromise on testing and husbandry issues.

Stop - take another look at what you have written - then see how this looks to ordinary people . Julia didnt buy the dog her partner did as a gift for her. He did the research and conducted the transaction.Do you ordinarily judge people because another person purchased them a gift ? This is a free country - people do have the right to choose which breed of dog or part there of they want to own. There is no evidence that the breeder is treating their dogs cruelly or that anyone who has purchased their puppies have any grievance against them. All this is doing is giving them MORE publicity and ensuring we all look like a bunch of fanatics who lack any logic or credibility.Its proving everything they say is true. Of course they will get more business - lots of people will assume that the puppy wouldnt come from them if they were crook and lots of people will feel special to own a dog bred by the same people as the PM's dog But anywhere the PM's dog came from would get the same benefit.If it had been purchsed from a particular rescue group they would have used it to strutt their stuff and so would any purebred breeder. Not sure what other clear demonstration we need to show us the methodology thats been used is counter productive and to make us see if we continue to say things out loud and behave like a bunch of fanatics we go backwards. Sticking with something that not only isnt working here didnt work in the states or the UK and they have had 20 years to demonstrate is madness . This stuff doesnt just take back any fight against puppy farms it also hurts purebred dogs and rescue.

Yep I know makes you want to yell and kick and scream and do all manner of things not classified lady like but seriously I really do think we have some things we can really use as long as we stay focused on what it true and legal and provable.Its the methodolgy that will kill us off if we dont stop and moderately develop a strategic plan .

I guess the only consolation might be that people can't afford one of these ridiculously priced mutts and might end up coming back to a registered breeder. Bloody hell I felt sick opening the paper to see this picture today. People havent gone away from registered breeders - we still have more demand than supply and we make it pretty hard to get one too.

The whole point to their marketing since way back in Don Burkes most active pro DD days is that they dont need to test because each breed has different recessives. While ever there is no mandatory health testing and breeders from all groups dont test its rather a wasted argument .For every commercial breeder you find who doesnt test you can find breeders from any group who dont test . Fact is it works more in their favour than against it as their stance is there is no need - and there isnt for recessives.

Nic No one who owns a dog in NSW or Victoria can stall the RSPCA they have the power to come and go and check at any time .In Victoria they have the power to police outside of POCTAA and their website would at least imply they are anti commercial breeder and wouldnt cut them much slack. They have been inspected by a constant stream of puppy buyers, council and RSPCA and put under the microscope over and over and they are still operating and whats more the people who buy their puppies are seemingly very happy with them. According to them they are not penned up all the time and they say they are doing what they need to in order to give them all good quality of life. We have to stick to the facts which can be proven we cant beat a drum because we think the way they do it isnt any good without any evidence and without them being found guilty .We cant fight based on what quality of life they may have and what happens to them isnt something anyone else gets a say in. If they do kill them when they dont want them any more thats still not making them suffer and unless they do its not something anyone else can make a judgement on. Stand back from this a minute - how you feel is how I feel but that wont win any battles. We need plans which entail gathering the science to back up what we think and real facts and data and we have to stop fighting with what we feel because obviously plenty of people dont feel the same way and feelings dont count when you go into to fight a war.

surely there has to be some reason - have they given one?

But did she buy her puppy from a puppy farm and if so by who's definition ? Is this a filthy disgusting place or is it someone who breeds dogs commercially?

Every [puppy I send home has pet insurance on it which lasts the first 6 weeks . There have been several claims over the years and petplan have always come to the party. Beagle pup who ran between the owners legs when he was practicing his golf swing and broke its neck Beagle pup who fell into a swimming pool and couldnt get out - drowned, Beagle pup who ate snail bait Maremma pup which was killed by a snake Maremma pup which was killed by a tick Maremma pup which was killed on an electric fence As you can see none of these tings would have been covered by the breeder but Pet plan covered purchase price and vetting for the new owners. I recommend people take out insurance for the first year at least because if anything nasty is going to show usually its by the time its a year old - then re assess .

Looks like an eye problem/infection on the pup on the left. Yep I wouldnt buy one from that litter.