Steve

Errr since when is that? As far as I know GTG (the main "DNA Testing" lab in Australia) will test any dog (registered or not) for a disease. I've certainly paid for a test for a non-registered dog by them. No issues. I also work in a DNA lab (research with a little bit of Disease testing) and as far as I know - we will test the genes in any dog regardless of registration. Don't know why any lab would make such a rule - would cut out a clients...which isn't the aim of any business. At the same time - for registered breeders - you generally have to get the DNA collected by an authorized person (i.e. a vet). But if you just want the results for kicks or your a non registered (non-ANKC) breeder then you wouldn't necessarily have to do this. for PRA ? You may be right but isnt there something about certified results or similar ? Yes for that you need to get the DNA collected by a vet, but the dog doesn't have to be registered. This just insures that the dog your testing is the dog who supplied the sample (i.e. no cheating). There are also "By parentage" certificates - no DNA test done (based on DNA tests of parents), perhaps the dog does need to be registered for this. I dont remember what made me believe you needed a dog to be registered - it was a while ago. Either way according to GTG there are no DNA tests available for cavs anyway.

Errr since when is that? As far as I know GTG (the main "DNA Testing" lab in Australia) will test any dog (registered or not) for a disease. I've certainly paid for a test for a non-registered dog by them. No issues. I also work in a DNA lab (research with a little bit of Disease testing) and as far as I know - we will test the genes in any dog regardless of registration. Don't know why any lab would make such a rule - would cut out a clients...which isn't the aim of any business. At the same time - for registered breeders - you generally have to get the DNA collected by an authorized person (i.e. a vet). But if you just want the results for kicks or your a non registered (non-ANKC) breeder then you wouldn't necessarily have to do this. for PRA ? You may be right but isnt there something about certified results or similar ?

http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/227496-dog-boots-shoes-donated-by-boronia/

https://www.facebook...1909729?sk=wall Snook The MDBA has always been against BSL and many of the original board of the MDBA were foundation members and board members of the EDBA so we have always been in there boots and all. 6. Position Statement – Breed Specific legislation The MDBA supports reasonable laws to protect the public from dangerous dogs and opposes breed-specific legislation in any form. Breed-specific laws target good dogs and responsible animal owners along with the bad. They take away responsible dog owners rights and lead to dogs who have been loyal family pets and who have shown no sign of aggression or dangerous behaviour being killed. They also give members of the public a false impression that unless a dog is of a certain breed that they don’t need to take adequate steps to ensure people’s safety and ensure their dogs have good manners and training. The MDBA believes the only dog laws that work are the ones that hold owners accountable for the actions of their dogs that use minor or first offences as educational opportunities, and that reward owners who make efforts to do the right thing. The MDBA favours strong dog laws that are evenly and effectively enforced, with the burden on confinement and control placed squarely on the dog owner. Effective laws *Provide serious consequences for owners whose dogs attack people or other pets. *Offer education and incentives to encourage responsible pet ownership. The MDBA believes that no dog laws will eliminate dangerous dog problems unless they are followed and supported by the public and entail fair and appropriate consequences, which are strongly and evenly policed and enforced The MDBA supports nuisance ordinances and dangerous dog laws to protect the community against unruly or dangerous dogs and irresponsible dog owners. MDBA Policy on Breed Specific Legislation MDBA policy is to promote conscientious ownership, reward responsible pet owners for their actions and encourage better relationships between dog owners and local authorities.

Simple- Its the owners responsibility to keep their dogs on their own property and under control. The council made the rules and made a promise to its citizens that it would enforce these laws and keep people safe to walk on their streets .the council have been alerted to the pronblem - keep any evidence of written complaints etc and threaten to or even better sue the council for not doing their job if you are threatend or nipped or bitten again.

I agree. I said as much. What I object to is the idea that the ANKC should be providing an Ark of protection for dogs and owners based on breed description when that simply cannot be verified. We should be FIGHTING ALL legislation that suggests that breed alone is enough predict whether a dog is 'dangerous' OR 'safe. I think the ANKC will probably be busy enough keeping the Amstaff out of the firing line. And a requirement of them having their exemptions for members under the domestic animals act is "statement that the organisation does not represent owners of dogs of a breed whose importation into australia is prohibited under teh customs[prohibited imports ]regulations 1956 of the Commonwealth.

Unless of course, both breeds carry recessive genes for genetically identical PRA. You know, breeds like Labradors and Poodles. :cool: Yes thank you I thought I was covering that but was only discussing risk factors for these two breeds with PRA. edited to ad so its easier for everyone to understand the PRA gene in cavs is c-PRA in mini and toy poodles its prcd-PRA . In lab x poodle its prcd- PRA in both so anyone breeding them would need to test - but you can only test if they are registered. Other words in this particular recessive - PRA depending on whether or not the two breeds are known to have the same kind of PRA some cross breeds are more rather than less likely to show up than it is in purebreds though in the cav x poodle chances are remote. Steve sorry for those non-genetically inclined what does that mean? That theoretically a lab dad and a poodle mum could have the same 'strain' of PRA? Also why do they have to be registered to be tested? But a cav and a poodle cant as they don't have the same "strain" for want of a better word? Just curious Yep thats it - Labs and mini and toy poodles have the same type of PRA so their puppies can get it because both can be affected or carriers .Cav and mini or toy poodle have a different type of PRA so their puppies could be carriers of both but not affected. the DNA people wont accept the samples unless the dog is registered . So if the parents are registered they can test if not its back to pot luck and its a higher risk because they dont know the ancestors etc.

Just wanted to say thank you to all of those who have offered to help but we could still use a few more if anyone is interested. Julie

Any minute now Im putting some boots up in the pacers fundraising forum.

Unless of course, both breeds carry recessive genes for genetically identical PRA. You know, breeds like Labradors and Poodles. :cool: Yes thank you I thought I was covering that but was only discussing risk factors for these two breeds with PRA. edited to ad so its easier for everyone to understand the PRA gene in cavs is c-PRA in mini and toy poodles its prcd-PRA . In lab x poodle its prcd- PRA in both so anyone breeding them would need to test - but you can only test if they are registered. Other words in this particular recessive - PRA depending on whether or not the two breeds are known to have the same kind of PRA some cross breeds are more rather than less likely to show up than it is in purebreds though in the cav x poodle chances are remote.

im going to have to agree to disagree with you there. if you don't test your breeding dogs how do you know what you are breeding? you could be breeding in any number of genetic problems. and i know that some reg breeders don't test and i know that purebreds can suffer with diseases just like crossed DD's can. and yes we breed for alot more than health we also have to consider type, and the working breeds have to consider working ability as well. whereas they don't have to do any of those things just breed a pup of any description call it a unique name that is fluffy bung on the high price thats it easy peasy. See this is what I dont want to have to do. You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA. If you are breeding Cavs you would still need to check for heart problems and Sm and LP ,HD etc because you only need one parent to have these issues and of course knowing the lines and what the ancestors had in these diseases is a huge advantage because they skip a generation etc. Im not saying they dont need to test for anything. Im saying there are some things which we need to test for and we need to be worried about that they dont. the chances the dog will get PRA is remote that isnt saying the chances it will develop some other polygenic disorder isnt higher than it is with breeders who know their lines and test their dogs. thats weird because i have a book on genes and it said that in order to get a recessive gene come through you need 2 carriers from both sides of the pedigree in order for the genetic problem to express itself. and i've come to the conclusion thats how we were able to get away with most of our dogs bar one with zero grades in their patellas. then we started mixing bloodlines and there started to be alot of unknowns in the pedigree and thats when i got that dog with grade 3. if you only have on parent affected it cannot be expressed it states it clearly i guess there are all different views on it maybe. i will have to find that again and i will put it up here but it will have to be tonight. In order to have a recessive problem show as an affected dog you have to have both parents with the gene so when the genes match up you get a pup that has the problem.Carriers and not affected have no symptoms so unless you test you cant tell if the gene is in there - but you need two one from each parent. You are talking about Patellas which hasnt been decided is a recessive problem but if it is you would need a gene from Mum and a gene from Dad to show an affected pup . If only the new dog had a recessive you wouldnt see it in your first generation but if you keep any for breeding and mate them with dogs whcih are also carriers you would then see it everywhere.

Agree with this Steve. Just looked through the puppy listing on DOL for my breed and as usual was Heaps of 'puppy farmers' merrily posting on there. And they do the health tests. This thread has helped clarify for me what I expect in a breeder. Ground hog day - What is a puppy farmer?

im going to have to agree to disagree with you there. if you don't test your breeding dogs how do you know what you are breeding? you could be breeding in any number of genetic problems. and i know that some reg breeders don't test and i know that purebreds can suffer with diseases just like crossed DD's can. and yes we breed for alot more than health we also have to consider type, and the working breeds have to consider working ability as well. whereas they don't have to do any of those things just breed a pup of any description call it a unique name that is fluffy bung on the high price thats it easy peasy. See this is what I dont want to have to do. You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA. If you are breeding Cavs you would still need to check for heart problems and Sm and LP ,HD etc because you only need one parent to have these issues and of course knowing the lines and what the ancestors had in these diseases is a huge advantage because they skip a generation etc. Im not saying they dont need to test for anything. Im saying there are some things which we need to test for and we need to be worried about that they dont. the chances the dog will get PRA is remote that isnt saying the chances it will develop some other polygenic disorder isnt higher than it is with breeders who know their lines and test their dogs.

It is a lottery with any animal with its health. Yes there are some things that you can test for but they are living creatures and there is a whole heap of stuff that can go wrong with them. The only thing I would say is a lottery with a DD is what the coat is going to be like and what size they end up. as i said before many times testing is a tool that not enough breeders use true, but it should be used IMO with research and there is some amount of success this way. and this is not what farmers are doing 9 times out of 10 as i have grown up with several of them (unfortunately living in puppy farm central and they being locals) i know what they don't do adn what dogs they are using not great examples. steve touched on putting two breeds together more than likely you would get healthy dogs well what i know and what i have seen for many years she is talking about hybrid vigour, which only happens if both parents and their families are healthy and sound to begin with. it has this same info on DOL home page. i find it hard to believe that the DD's stuck in farms have a family full of sound healthy dogs and before i had pedigrees my mother actually did have cross breeds they were known as mongrels in those days (1970's) and they even had their problems. Poodle crosses. accidental mating with pups unfortunatley. yes all dogs can have health issues but its not about the dogs its about the people that breed them breeding them irresponsibly IMO not taking care to produce healthy pups. Hang on thats not what I said or meant. There are a hell of a lot more genes and more variables in breeding dogs than just having to consider the recessives. I said that if you breed cross breds you dont need to test for the recessives as much as we do and why using an argumant of them not testing especially when you chuck in PRA isnt a great argument.

It is a lottery with any animal with its health. Yes there are some things that you can test for but they are living creatures and there is a whole heap of stuff that can go wrong with them. The only thing I would say is a lottery with a DD is what the coat is going to be like and what size they end up. There is a whole heap more in that lottery than just coat type and size .the fact that coat can have that many combinations times that by 100,000 genes which can match and mix up in any combination .

i believe i was just trying to explain my experience and just trying to get to the bottom of why DD is not a good choice trying to go another avenue with the science of breeding to use in a productive what i thought, debate. if we can't get them on the care, the profit, health, there is nothing much left. so what are you saying we should just accept that DD puppy farms are here to stay and not fight for the animals being bred en masse this way. wipe out the pedigree dog in the future after sometimes thousands of years evolution. my own breed they were saying is about 4000 years old. i wasn't trying to say how bloody wonderful my dogs or I were, if i have created that impression i apologise, i was using myself as an example and just sharing my experiences of what i've encountered in my life with dogs which started as a small child. i don't really understand what you have written here TBQH. i thought we wanted to create a plausible counter argument there are many wonderful people in the dogworld. and i think to myself that thank god there are breeders around who are breeding wonderful examples of our purebreed dogs because quite frankly all these DD farms sprouting up all over the place makes me feel threatened and i worry for purebreds who are a dying race as you say there are only 4000 breeders australia-wide? and that is very worry-some. and very sad. anyhow i must go got heaps of work to do. toy dog I wasnt addressing you personally I mean on the whole - everyone .

huh? wahat? Meanwhile the govt said we need more people from other countries to help populate our country as Australia has many unpopulated areas, work in melbourne and you will see this argument supported. i think thats one persons opinion somehow living in the sticks somewhere. You see just bunch of loonies and rednecks - scary thing is some of them are vets.

Stop comparing us to them .I dont want a discussion here defending them or promoting them and when you bring in all this crap they supposedly do or dont do its a waste of energy .For everything you come up with there is a counter argument and everyone else can see it . Again- tell me about what you do and why you do it and how bloody wonderful your dogs are Nominate any dog owner, rescue breeder or antyone else who is doing a great job and lets make THEM famous and the talk of the town so peopel can see the difference.

I actually don't know any oodles that have had problems and I imagine that I got/get to see more of them then the average dog owner as a groomer and obedience instructor. Know a shitload of purebred dogs with serious problems though so really that isn't a good argument. Billabong actually offers a 1 year health guarantee so if the pup has a problem on its first birthday it may be covered. well thats going to be interesting if the pup ends up with a inherited disease they offer to replace it, and i know of many owners who are attached to the dog by then so don't want it replaced or they offer their money back but that still doesn't address the problem that the owner has a sick dog and even if breeder says give the money back, sometimes the owner still isn't very happy with the breeder afterwards as the breeder sold them a dog that eventually got sick, it sometimes does nothing towards the attitude of the buyer offering an olive branch, been on the end of that and so has many other breeders, i should explain in reference to PL. so its going to be very interesting what transpires! The AAPDB have in their codes that they cant demand the dog back if they refund

im not trying to judge anyone i am just genuinely interested in what, particularly BCF who are show casing themselves to everyone now, do when they do breed a sick dog that clearly is a result of a genetic problem in their "stock". i know that most of the time pups are bred blindly, and even in some cases the same stud is used on a wide gene pool and then perhaps there is a need to inbreed several times not just once which is very dangerous given that they ARE breeding blindly. in my experience inbreeding should only take place if you know the bloodlines thoroughly. where would they get studs from. but anyway genetics and breeding is a very hard thing to do if you want to produce sound healthy dogs and its a hit and miss project taking many years to accomplish. They are only breding first crosses - They are only ever breeding first crosses so they dont have to consider the same things we do because we also have to consider the future generations and not just the ones in one litter. there is no in breeding and there is less liklihood of recessive diseases showing .There is still the same risks as polygenic issues showing - More so if the problem is impacted by nutrition of the bitch or environment they are raised in etc if they are covering those things.Every pup they breed is a lucky dip - we use science to breed healthier predictible dogs over muliti generations.

The law says they cant breed a carrier or an affected animal but so far only 5 diseases are listed as the 5 you cant breed and they are all recessives. when it was all happening we had a big maon about it and said it would stop people testing - which it did - so they added in the word wreckless - so if you have a breed which is prone to one of these and you dont test and therefore know you have a carrier or an affected you could go down Its a law most likely to affected purebred breeders because you need two carriers for the thing to show .For example if there is a test available for PRA in your breed but you think its not a biggy and you choose not to test and in 6 years time the pup turns up with PRA or its tested and is shown to have PRA you are more likely to be done in than a cross bred breeder .

According to our health survey and that we are talking about a poddle cross cav and PRA the chances are remote that PRA would be a problem. However SM, mitrio valve desease, luxating patellas - high risk. Higher risk than in a purebred pup whose parents have been tested. It can however have up to 69 different coat combinations. well that is a good point, we have had surveys for pedigrees i know MDBA did a survey for health across all breeds, but it is difficult to survey cross breeds and particularly dogs and crosses from these farms but going on what i know that are problems with our pedigrees and farmers having F1 crosses that all the things we deal with they'd have to deal with too. Its not necessary to produce pups that are healthy as most people when the pups are young don't know and also some genetic problems only come out when the dog is mature. i mean what do these farmers do when they get buyers coming back with a sick dog? or do the buyers bother coming back. sometimes buyers don't want the 3rd degree they say from reg breeders so get a pup from a farm or shop where they aren't asked any questions so go on their merry way never to be heard from again i suppose. so maybe they dont' come back and make the farmer accountable. dont know what goes on. I can tell you what one did last Monday when a buyer came back with a complaint the dog now 6 months old was nipping the kids .She tried to educate the buyer on how to stop this kind of play and suggested a trainer - the owner didnt want to go that way so the breeder offered to give them a full refund and bring the dog back to them. Rescue advised the owner that he shouldnt do that as because it was a lab cross poodle and desexed the breeder would take it home and shoot it. WouLD the breeder pay 1600 to bring a dog home to shoot it ? I dont think so. I dont know what any of the others do but I know registered breeders who wouldnt offer to buy a dog back 6 months later let alone if it was genetic or sick. When I bought one of mine I offered the breeder membership with the MDBA and she told me she couldnt join because she couldnt agree to the code .She said I dont care what happens to that dog after its gone home and Im not agreeing to help the owner to be irresponsible. So the answer is what does any breeder do in this situation? You have to judge each on a case by case basis and you cant lump the likely outcome on what group they happen to slot into.

i don't know about that unless there is some literature around that has proven that to be the case, has anyone proven that with results? you'd have to breed crosses to find out i suppose but i believe myself that my understanding is PRA is PRA there's not all different types of the one disease so 2 dogs on 2 sides of the family have PRA regardless of their breed bang then you get it expressed in one pup or several pups. maybe someone would be able to shed more light on this. No they couldnt just say one day we can now identify PRA in all breeds - they had to find the specific genes which are different and peculiar to each breed .This is why there are over 100 breeds but only about a quarter so far have DNA available for PRA . So if you had 2 poodles where PRA is noted as a large potential problem in the breed who were carriers or affected you can get affected pups but its not that much of a big deal in cavs and the specific gene is unlikely to be in both breeds.Even if both parents had PRA the chances of the pups getting PRA on a first cross is very remote and wouldnt justify a need to test either parent for the purposes of breeding. However, if later on the PM's dog did turn out to have PRA that would mean the breeder has bred carriers or affected dogs and would be looking at a gaol term as they bred them in Victoria.

According to our health survey and that we are talking about a poddle cross cav and PRA the chances are remote that PRA would be a problem. However SM, mitrio valve desease, luxating patellas - high risk. Higher risk than in a purebred pup whose parents have been tested. It can however have up to 69 different coat combinations.

Well for what its worth I think we should start minding our own business.Rather than trying constantly to find things to make "them "look bad and tell everyone why we are better than them and we are breeding dogs better than them, healthier than them, more socialised than them ,cleaner than them etc we should stop being so defensive and start educating people on what we do and why we do it .We can do this without having to make them look bad and by simply demonstrating that what we do is different and why. We can make our dogs look great without needing to make them look bad. We can respect that we are all different and some will be good with a rescue , some wont, some will be able to live with any breed or cross breed some wont . Some breeders suck and regardless of what they breed or how many they muck it up . Some of these think they do a great job. Some rescuers suck and regardless of what they rescue or how many they muck it up. Some of these think they do a great job. Some owners suck and will always see a dog as a throw away or that their dogs are special and dont need to be kept under control or teach them manners. We need to talk about why we choose a purebred dog and how important we think it is to be able to predict management issues,we need to explain why we breed papered dogs and what advantages that gives us and the owners and the dogs .We need to show case our owners of the pets we breed every bit as much as any champs we breed. Rescue needs to talk about why they follow certain policies and procedures and show case the families who own their animals. By doing this we educate other breeders, rescues and owners, we work together for a common goal - less unwanted or suffering - we focus on how we can learn and do a better job and entice new people to join us and breed smaller numbers and sell to people who have the opportunity to see why we do what we do. We need to work more closely with trainers and other canine professionals.We need to research and collect real data so when we do say something to tell the world what is a preferrable situation we have the goods to back it up. We dont need new laws or new regs - unless they take some away that are there and while we are constantly hearing about terrible breeders and terrible rescue we dont get a chance to focus on the great stuff and achievements of those who really are getting it right. Puppy farmers who keep their dogs in rotten conditions and who dont give them the things they need should be charged and punished and if anyone is aware of anyone doing that - owners, rescue, breeders no matter how many they have report them and allow the process to deal with them . There are laws in place to ensure this can be done no law is going to stop people breeding based on their motivations, numbers, or breeds . Right now Im in the middle of the awards and that gives me the opportunity to hear the most amazing stories about people who should be the ones under the spotlight to allow people to see what the good guys are doing.i read what they do and speak with them and I cry and wonder why everyone doesnt know this stuff - why dont they? The best way to show what should be done is to create role models and show people what they should be looking for and shine a light on the advantages for people who do these things and those who take the animals they place in new homes etc.