Steve

For the first time I can remember I don’t agree with allLilli has said regarding Maremma Ordinarily when you have Maremma you expect to see no stockloss but also no dead bodies because a Maremma won’t go out and take onanything if it means leaving the stock exposed they prefer to yell and do allthey can to keep the predator away and don’t like attacking because when youare fighting one another can come in and hurt the stock . It is also true theyare far less territorial and defend the stock not the territory. But there is ahuge difference between how one Maremma works in comparison to how a pack ofMaremma work. To suggest that Maremma cant and don’t do what is required ofthem and kill the predator if required is assuming that only one or two Maremmaare in the paddock. To see them working as a team is awesome and fascinating towatch and note the differences. In areas where they are defending against un owned dogs huntingin packs the farmers have more Maremma in the paddock. In the Bulli areas wherethere is a massive un owned dog problem we have placed some which work as ateam of 7 and the owners wake up to dead wild dogs with backs broken floating bellyup in the dam. On my property the difference between what happens and howthe dogs work when there is one in the paddock or three in a paddock is hugeand it has nothing to do with the gender or the size of the dog. If you have an un owned dog problem you have more Maremma but the species makes nodifference – they work as well with any species from tiny to huge.

With loads of pressure you may get them to begin recording scores and test results etc but I don't believe they will ever record all of the info needed for someone looking to breed a dog requires to select a breeding animal. Any system that relies only on breeders adding info especially info that's negative is doomed to failure. I want to know if one of the ancestors was itchy or epileptic, or nasty, or timid. I want to know if they had an auto immune disease and if they were working or pets etc.

Logically if the LGD can guard any species against wild dogs then why not cattle ? Same wild dogs and same LGD .Some of mine are working with cattle but mainly for fox control as the foxes were eating the udders off the cows etc . Its all about how big the property i and how many the dogs have to guard - you then adjust your LGD numbers accordingly. No LGD worth its salt would leave its stock unprotected to mate with a dog running with a pack no matter how horny it got.

They are used in protection of cattle and will adapt to protection of any species as long as the bonding process is covered http://www.feral.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Guardian-Dogs-web.pdf

This is why the MDBA began its registry and why our members provide duel registration as everything is recorded on our pedigrees including,health , temperament issues , non ANKC sanctioned awards and what work the dogs do etc. Dog owners and breeders provide the info which is entered into the data base so it is available via the pedigree. Theoretically eventually people will be able to sit at the table with a pedigree in front of them and have all info for every dog in at least 4 generations to be able to profile breeding partners and track problems.

Its good fun too isnt it?

Geez how scary - keep us updated.

That's what works best for me and no one would ever get a puppy from me without a lengthy conversation or three or four regardless of what they say in an email or questionnaire. By the way this is what I recommend to those looking for puppies too - get the breeder talking - listen to how they feel about their dogs, how they house them and what their philosophies are etc get a feel for whether they think they can feel comfortable going to them into the future for help and advice and whether they think the breeder is savvy enough about dogs and their breed to be the person they feel is most qualified to help them if they have questions etc.

Two different topics why do breeders not advertise and should breeders desex prior to sale . Not a chance Im desexing prior to sale.

Agree with Sheridan - but if we want to be able to advertise anywhere we want and not get the crap beaten out of us because we do its going to take all of us deciding to stand up to to them - not care what they say about us and advertise in those places again as a movement .The chances of that happening - unlikely - we have become in the main a group of people who do all we can to keep our camp fires low and most of us don't need to advertise in those places so reward doesn't equal effort and the beating we take to our image.

Also just went and checked with my son who was with me when we had the vaccs and chip done and he agreed my vet didnt use a swab prior to insertion. Cant believe I didn't pick that up at the time - my puppies are super clean when they go to the vet but skin would still have bacteria wouldn't it? Have you checked temperatures to be sure its no sign of infection - any swelling in the close glands around the neck? I dont think its a good thing for so many of your pups to have the lumps - not good at all -makes for questions about the batch

I always had the destron ones - the longer skinny ones - and for over a decade never a problem. My vet changed to the shorter white ones and Im back to the vet tomorrow morning too. No lumps yet but they were only done on the 3rd and three are nowhere to be found - not scanning and one pup which isn't scanning has a massive scab on his back - bled for over and hour. Its clearly not my scanner as all of the others are scanning O.K. Very strange. I agree with Wunderhoo I think its more likely to be chip than vax at this stage.

Do you remember if the inserter for the chips looked like one of these?

I have a list of things I want to know that I tick off as I speak with people . For me questionnaires are impersonal and it gives someone who wants to tell fibs time to think about it ,makes them feel Im in a more powerful position than they are and thats not want I want my puppy buyers to feel. No one Im speaking to knows Im doing any more than chatting about me, them, their family , the dogs and the breed and I let the conversation flow so I get a feel for the idiot factor if it shows and their lifestyle etc and put a tick or a cross on the big ticket things I want to know before I tell them I have a puppy which may suit them. If I have a puppy that I think wont suit them or if I think they need to re think their breed choice I explain why and offer them help into the future even if they buy a puppy elsewhere.

That about covers it.

Puppy buyers come in waves too. You may breed a litter this week and have loads of great people lining up for a puppy and you have every reason to believe if you had another litter in a few months that it would be the same - there are no guarantees that will be the case and if you are in a position where you need to advertise it doesn't automatically turn you into a 'terrible,mass producing breeder who only breeds for the pet market ' and has no desire to do what is best for the breed.

Not just by AR folks but by other breeders, too. Yep.

So the answer to the original question "So why are breeders reluctant to advertise where there is a demand for animals" Answer - Because they are negatively judged and bullied.

The same can be said for breeders of pedigreed dogs... how do you know that they are reputable or ethical either? A membership to the CC in their state and papering dogs isn't the only indicator that someone is likely to be "reputable"... it's all about researching where you are wanting to source the dog/pup from... T. I believe that both need third party accountability - at least then you have somewhere to go to be listened to if its not done according to their code of ethics / practice. Any one or any group can tell you their policies and codes but without outside accountability its too easy to do what you think people wont notice or you you think you wont get busted on ,sweep unsatisfied customers under the carpet etc.

What do they do with pups they don't want to show then? Drown them to keep them out of the hands of the majority pet owning public? Sadly some do - better that than have people talking about you because you have puppies you need to advertise - nutters.

Yep but more exposure of the good ones in places where the dodgy ones also advertise help people to see the difference too.

The reality is that regardless of why you breed the majority of your puppies go to pet homes so whether you breed for the pet market or not you still have to find suitable homes and move out the ones you cant or don't want to keep and deal with the public. If you can do that without needing to advertise - good for you but most of us cant and Id refer to see puppies advertised on other sites and in papers with the breeders still being responsible for their placement than having them disappear and turning up dead or in pet shops because of the craziness it has become.

Some of it comes from those who think we shouldn't be breeding pets as you say H W but in the main its mythology created which tags a breeder as a puppy farmer etc if they breed more than they have homes for before they breed them or if they are seen in the same place as someone judged to be lesser people or breeders. Its been pushed by loonies for years and we let them run with it until now when you go looking for how to find a good breeder it will tell you to avoid those who advertise in papers and free websites etc

The majority of my Maremma pups go to working homes.You don't find homes for a dozen working dog puppies from only dogz because its less likely those looking for a working dog think to look here. People who want a pet Maremma come here to look but the breed isnt suitable to just place it without lots of education and lots of screening. I have a litter here which was all sold by 10 days of age and only one of them came through the dogz ad. I get just as many enquiries for puppies when I have an ad up on dogz as I do at any other time BUT Ive been around a long time and now most of my puppy sales go to people who have already had one of my puppies or who know someone who has one of my puppies.I also have a website that is overloaded with stories about the breed and stacked with info to help people understand the breed before they get to speaking with me and I advertise where ever and when ever I get a whim to do so - sometimes when I dont even have any puppies or any expected. I talk lots of people out of the breed and constantly promote and talk about my breed and my dogs and Im good with tyre kickers because Id prefer the opportunity to make a difference to the way they may be thinking for the sake of the breed.