Steve

Tralees dogs come from the same lines as all of our dogs and it just that they live according to what is normal for them.

There are lots of rescue groups in SA that have professionalism and accountability - they are MDBA members. You've just been watching the wrong ones.

And who is judging what crazy is

crazies everywhere Jo especially in the dog world and it has gotten worse over the last few years.

Yes, i'm just a dog owner too and have seen a dog deteriorate rapidly because of grief after her sister died. I think when you experience these things first hand that are unable to be explained it puts a new perspective in your mind. I am not saying they have the understanding we have, however, I have seen a dog go through the motions of grief and loss after death that has opened my eyes to new concepts. I have seen this as well but I interpreted what I saw was simply about no longer having the company of that dog rather than understanding the dog was dead as in dead.

Dont think you will avoid that by moving to another state - the dog world is a filthy place and is a small world no matter where you live.

Well, that's altogether too likely. Yes agreed and they have some powerful groups and people on their side including the AVA - much going on behind the scenes.

Look Im no scholar Im just an ordinary every day person who lives with dogs. Dogs are geared for survival so if there are things in the environment or the owners body language etc that they can feel threatened by which may affect their ability to survive I expect they would react - but I dont agree they can take that instinct to the next level of pre meditated thought and have an understanding of what is death. An understanding of death is difficult for children to get. Few kids think if I do that I might die and know that die means you will no longer exist until they are past a level of cognitive development yet you want me to believe a dog can. Nup. not really the point to the story though anyway - fact is the owner wanted it and asked someone to promise they would and they fulfilled their promise - dog's dead cant suffer any more even if it did know it was going to die and what that meant - end of story.

Yeah well that's about how I feel about breeding dogs as well but the law says they can be and what's more they give codes which make it unavoidable. The way rescue is going there will be laws which will say how and how many and how long they can stay etc and when that happens its cases like this you can thank for that.

Well it shouldn't have had to be policed - if the approval is for 30 that's all there should have been without further applications for more approved. Im not going to comment on the advisability of having dogs indefinitely because a lot depends on the set up and how they are housed and managed but RSPCA and council in SA dont get to say how long a dog can stay on a property for that is being used as a shelter.

Sorry but that is not proof that a dog knows about or fears an impending death. I've had that very reaction from a dog that had been poked and prodded, xrayed, needled and all manner of things done to him in my presence at the vets. We went to give him an AB shot and he screamed and screamed and screamed, it went on for a couple of minutes before he eventually calmed down. Yes, it's very upsetting and not how you would want to remember your last seconds with your dog but it's certainly not a reaction bought about by a dogs sense ( or lack there of ) of it's impending death. Read the first sentence again 'proof that it's not always the dream ending we play out to be'. In regards to dogs and death, no I don't believe they know that very instance is their death but i do believe they know what death is. You know what the question of what is death is asked every day of the year all over the world. Some believe its not the end but a beginning and others believe there is no after life , others believe in re incarnation etc etc so if a dog can understand it they are doing better than most humans. If they really did know what death is I wonder if they would choose sometimes to go in peace rather than suffer on in the hands of bad owners or suffering with illnesses their owners choose to let them suffer on with. Dogs know what death is? Crap. Oh okay, must be crap because you say so. I'll go with that then. No no , dont do that - it must be true because you say so - silly me for not knowing that.

Well, the questions centred around their suitability as regular dometic pets. I have not seen your dogs with your visitors, but my dogs will not let anybody approach me whether it is inside the house or outside. I have to strategically place myself in a position so that any movement by others will be away from me. A few years back I was walking the dogs and a neighbour started to become aggressive and raised his voice. Winja was up on his back legs staring him in the eyes and barking at him. The dogs are protective instinctively, they know their business and they do it flawlessly. But I would not expect them to be listed as your everyday take home dog to be left with young children who naturally have friends that come and go. In my experience that would not just be irresponsible but criminal. They are a special purpose dog, and if you do not have a special purpose, then another dog should be considered. Regards My dogs yell about anyone approaching until they get to the front of the house and I welcome them in - they then seem not to notice. One example . We had a visitor who didnt even know the dog was in the house - she was in an adjoining room seemingly asleep. This guy is there about half an hour and stood up quickly and raised his voice and his arm telling my husband a joke .In a heartbeat the dog was between them and this guy knew he was about to die if he didnt sit down and stop. For the rest of the visit the dog sat at my hubby's feet between him and the visitor and if the visitor looked like he was going to stand or if he became too animated the dog sat up looked him in the eye and gave a low growl . Hubby took the dog out back to enable the visitor to stand up and leave. This man could never get back in the gate again without fear of being killed so he rang each time before he arrived and we put the dog where she couldnt get to him. But the same dog would never be like that with anyone else until she perceived a real threat - something other than normal. When the grandkids are here the dogs ensure they dont get out off the porch area .We sit and smile as the dogs simply calmly place themselves in front of the toddlers to stop them from going anywhere and the kids act like its a walking frame and the nice dog brings them back around to their Mum's.The kids dont even click that this what the dogs are doing .Ive never really worked out whether the dogs are protecting the kids or protecting what is off the porch from the kids. They seem to actively go after cuddles from kids and the frail but sit a distance away when older kids or adults visit - they have no interest in making friends. I had one which was born the same day as my youngest son. I had to train her not to lick the bottoms of his feet when he was a baby. I watched her simply round him up and bring him back to the house if a strange car pulled up putting herself between the gate and the kid .He had kids coming and going to play and the dog sat in the sand pit with them .When they played chasing games she watched but if he fell she was first there to make sure he was O.K. and the stories about his relationship with her could fill a couple of books. Once only ever did we have an "incident" As you know my first 6 kids are adults - 2 are younger - 26 years between my eldest and my youngest so eldest son wasnt living at home when I had my last son and the dog didnt know him. He came home for a visit and we introduced them as we always do and all was good. But one day I was in the yard with the baby - toddler - and son raced up behind us grabbed the baby and threw him up and let out a woooop .Before anyone saw it coming dog bit son on the back of the leg .Not enough to draw blood or leave a bruise but enough to let him know to put the kid down and not move.For the rest of the visit eldest son was able to do everything he wanted except go into youngest sons bedroom and at first there was never a minute that the dog wasn't between eldest and youngest son. It took about 2 days to show the dog eldest son wasn't a threat to the baby and eldest son was able to wrestle with the baby and blow raspberries on his tummy etc. But seriously in 22 years I have never had a single concern for my kids, my grandkids or any visitors kids and Id trust a Maremma with a child more than I would most people just as I trust them with lambs which are a minute old. The stuff they do with autistic kids is brilliant and that doesn't prevent people, therapists, caregivers, baby sitters etc coming and going etc. they do go in and out of nursing homes etc and thats not because they have been bred differently or altered its because that's what is normal for them. Seriously Tralee it is about what is normal and for your dogs normal is different to mine. They can and do live with a family and treat that as their special purpose just as they do any other job,penguins, wallabies, quokka, rabbits, chickens, cats, other dogs, sheep, goats, horses, cattle, as long as they are treated as a family/herd/mob/ member. Yours dont see visitors so they are working based on that just as some of mine dont want anyone else other than who they know coming into a paddock and they will position themselves between the sheep and the stranger in case they have come to steal them or hurt them. Mine also know the normal drill when you come here so if you try to jump the fence or come in the wrong gate they will knock you down. The guy who came to service the septic tank was hit behind the knees and skittled as he got out of his ute and pinned by the dog's feet on his shoulders on the ground until I arrived to save him and that was simply done by me softly saying "its O.K. come here" and she let him up straight away but the way he entered the property was way different to anyone else. Someone late one night tried to come over the house fence too and the only evidence we saw of that was some blood and half a leg ripped off his jeans and a shoe.He seemed to have gone back over the fence quicker than he came in - because it wasnt normal. So yes of course they don't suit everyone or every household especially those in suburbia but no breed does suit everyone- but to consider them not suitable is pets is something Ill never agree with.

Sorry but that is not proof that a dog knows about or fears an impending death. I've had that very reaction from a dog that had been poked and prodded, xrayed, needled and all manner of things done to him in my presence at the vets. We went to give him an AB shot and he screamed and screamed and screamed, it went on for a couple of minutes before he eventually calmed down. Yes, it's very upsetting and not how you would want to remember your last seconds with your dog but it's certainly not a reaction bought about by a dogs sense ( or lack there of ) of it's impending death. Read the first sentence again 'proof that it's not always the dream ending we play out to be'. In regards to dogs and death, no I don't believe they know that very instance is their death but i do believe they know what death is. You know what the question of what is death is asked every day of the year all over the world. Some believe its not the end but a beginning and others believe there is no after life , others believe in re incarnation etc etc so if a dog can understand it they are doing better than most humans. If they really did know what death is I wonder if they would choose sometimes to go in peace rather than suffer on in the hands of bad owners or suffering with illnesses their owners choose to let them suffer on with. Dogs know what death is? Crap.

Yes thats exactly the point. Any DA will say how many and in reality I think thats what everyone expects anyway - but once you get into how long they can stay thats a whole new ball game and not up to anyone but those who manage it .Different in Victoria because the RSPCA were able to get laws in to restrict these things but not in any other state so far.

The RSPCA in SA dont have the same kind of powers they do YET in NSW and Victoria though its still a fair bit - but either way the RSPCA can only police and up hold what is law - they don't get to come in and announce their own policies and make everybody do as they do as they would like them to do. By the way this sort of thing is happening all over the place - You cant beat them when council joins in and places restrictions on what is required to run this sort of business from home - or any property - though if you had the money you probably could because many of the things they put on are not required via mandatory codes. But the RSPCA are coming in and putting their own policies on and people are too frightened to stand their ground. All of this is really important stuff especially as they are wanting to do inspections on breeders before they allow them licences and if any such thing came in for rescue they would want the job. Just because the RSPCA dont agree with no kill or dont think a dog should stay for longer than 2 months doesn't mean they get to call the shots on every other rescue group. Every person in this country should be calling for them to have an outside accountability process .They use our taxpayer money and public donations to do this and they are policing their competition or people they have a basic abhorrence to. Whether you agree with no kill or dogs staying longer than 2 months surely you can see that any situation where this can happen and if they dont comply they can simply take the dogs away is outrageous. They can come in take a dog , their own vet checks it over, no second opinion , no consultation with the owner or the owners vet , no accountability , put the dog down or simply rehome it and say what ever they want about the dog without any transparency the person they have taken it from has no defence and no where to go to be able to do anything to stop it. I know nothing about Lola or this shelter but this is much bigger than just this case and no matter what you cannot simply say its needed in this case and forget about it - this is much bigger than that.

A local law can't duplicate or contradict federal or state law.A council must advertise any local law that it intends to make and must consider any public submissions it receives about the local law before implementing it.Copies of all of its local laws must be available for public inspection and/or purchase at the council offices. They could tie them up about the development application - put stupid restrictions on re buildings, sounds , smells, waste removals,parking, etc They can also pull rank with anything that's in state animal cruelty laws or any dealing with rescue shelters at state level but they don't get to determine their policies or how long dogs can stay. While ever running a no kill shelter is legal anyone can run a no kill shelter as long as they fit the environmental requirements and if that means dogs stay longer that's the way it goes. Doesn't matter if some don't like it until it really does become state law and that would take years.

No they cant and nor can the RSPCA - if we listen to gossip and determine the laws can be changed for this one because we think there is a sound reason for it then each and every rescue group in this country are sitting ducks.

Perhaps thats true but if governments are concerned about this then they need to change state laws and not bully people. If she is guilty of animal cruelty or neglect there are ample laws available to see her shut down and so far I haven't seen any suggestion she is being charged. Sorry I cant just agree that the law can be changed for some and not others and people treated differently. If her facilities are in need of repair or renovation - fair enough but unless its illegal and its not in that state then they don't get to just make up policies for her. Local council don't just get to make up businesses and non profit polices. If she wants to run a no kill shelter in that state she has a legal right to do so if all else is covered. If businesses and non profits got shut down because the people speaking for them were perceived to be putting their emotions first there wouldn't be many left.

All that aside unless not being able to house a shelter dog for over 2 months is state law how can they put that on them? As far as I know in the state of SA its perfectly legal to hold a shelter animal indefinitely and council laws cannot be harder than state laws. How would everyone in NSW like it if over night they started picking off some rescue and not others to restrict how long you can keep a dog before you have to put it down.?

Yes we said that and its working well. It won't work as well until its official shown on the pedigree certificate..... then it is open for everyone to see and not the ability of the breeder to pick and choose if they are going to advertise the results. At the moment the hip/elbow scores are sent to the Assoc before the dog or bitch can be used however the result is not added to the certificate.... It is on our [MDBA] pedigree certificates and why many breeders are now dual registering their dogs. Not only are their scores and results added but also if they do specific work such as assistance or search and rescue etc so the breeder has it all on one document when they profile their pedigrees. And we don't just rely on breeders to enter the details either -the good and the bad stuff is entered by people who own pet puppies as well as breeders so it builds info of all of the relos. So where do you get the breeders info from..... the breeders or the schemes etc. The info is provided by breeders , pet owners, rescue etc anyone who owns a dog with a pedigree. They send in the vet reports, verifiable scores and test results etc, we also ad in qualifications which are and are not ANKC recognised,temperament issues , work [or not] to enable the breeder to have as much info as possible on whats in the pedigree.

Yes we said that and its working well. It won't work as well until its official shown on the pedigree certificate..... then it is open for everyone to see and not the ability of the breeder to pick and choose if they are going to advertise the results. At the moment the hip/elbow scores are sent to the Assoc before the dog or bitch can be used however the result is not added to the certificate.... It is on our [MDBA] pedigree certificates and why many breeders are now dual registering their dogs. Not only are their scores and results added but also if they do specific work such as assistance or search and rescue etc so the breeder has it all on one document when they profile their pedigrees. And we don't just rely on breeders to enter the details either -the good and the bad stuff is entered by people who own pet puppies as well as breeders so it builds info of all of the relos.

I dont think its O.K. but I do think its more O.K. than telling lies to someone and then breaking your word when it was probably the most important request to them the person asking ever had .If you cant promise and know you will keep it you shouldn't promise. This person got a promise from her son and I expect any promise my sons make to me they will be kept whether Im around to check on that or not. By saying yes and then doing the opposite it prevents her reconsidering and finding someone else or another alternative which she had some element of control of.

Yes we said that and its working well.

what happens when there are in season bitches around? Either the owners or the neighbours? They are desexed. Not because of the owners or the neighbours but due to potential issues with wild dogs or dingo. These dogs are on tens of thousands of acres. Also a couple who work at a wallaby sanctuary and live with and guard the wallaby on thousands of acres all desexed.

That's part of the beauty of the breed - yours live a completely different life to mine - even more so than the working ones but they suit each of us even though what is normal in our worlds is so much different. Again I say its about what is normal and in my opinion if a Maremma is going to be a show dog and have strangers handle it when its off its own turf on leash then it should be able to cope with it as much as any other dog being shown. There is certainly no reason why the breed should be stopped from being shown but the fact is if the dogs are selected for how they look and not also how they work inevitably our breed will end up like the Kelpies and Border Collies - huge gap between those that work and those that are shown and I would hate it to go that way.