Ptolomy

Hey we could have a doggy dancing routine at this rate - a step to the right by beans and a step to the left by Snaz - sounds like the hokey pokey

UM Caffy - come training on Monday and show me I have been doing this - but Rome wasn't built in a day - I have 3 years of bad training to undo and I want it fixed NOW ;) and its just not happening fast enough

Waiting her out I believe is not a good idea as you are setting up a behaviour chain pick up the db, chomp, stop chomping and get rewarded

Yes, so there goes one of my theories I guess. -------------------- If the dog can't do it at this point there is no way it will be able to sit there and hold after having fetched the db. Have you tried handing the dog the db and rewarding before she has a chance to reposition? If you are too slow and she does - then giving a NRM?

Hi Ptolomy, love your Tollers!! Agility person here, but you did say anyone can chime in. Have you tryed teaching her to drop on a target to fix this? rather than giving her a barrier to avoid it will give her something to aim for, I find this sort of training gives the dog a better understanding of what you really want and is much easier to fade sucessfully than barriers. I would start from the beginning and free shape her to go to and drop on the target, make sure reward is given while in position, this should help her understand that the location of her drop is important, add your cue and then once you have proofed that to a few locations, position her for the COP on the target and practise it with the target for a long while before fading. With all the reinforcement for dropping you will have to do lots of rewarding for not anticipating especially while the target is still there. Try to use a target that is not too big of a visual cue for the dog to make it easier to fade. Here is one of my problems. I've been trying to teach my young dog a good solid stand stay, which she does well except that she has a tendancy to move one or both her back feet alittle, like she is shifting her weight or something. I've only taken it to the stage where I will reward her very very often and only move 1-2 meters away from her max, continually stuffing treats in her face, I've added some distractions also, generally her foot movment occurs when I am near her and doesn't seem to have anything to do with distractions. I've tryed very hard to only reward her stays up until the point she moves a foot, resetting her once she moves but no improvment, I don't think she is aware she is doing it. She is training for agility and I have done alot of rear end awareness work with her already (ladder work, standing in her water bowl, perch work, 2o2o contact training, walking on her hind legs and early handstand work) but we have hit a bit of a wall and I don't know how to fix this. Any suggestions? Hey Casima - thanks for the suggestions. I have to confess for I have sinned - I have never taught any of my dogs to target So are you suggesting a piece of carpet or something similar and if she drops off the carpet then I give a NRM? And then the idea being to gradually make the carpet smaller and smaller taking it to all different locations. Hmm if it is then I think it could work!!!! As for your sit stays problem - most dogs have issues with their front feet not their back ones. Have you had the dog checked to make sure that she isn't sore while sitting? To teach stays both stand and sit we play the steady feet game - so with the dog in a sit - we bring a bit of food towards the dogs face and if it moves then the food goes away - so we are almost tempting the dog to move and when it does the food goes away. Then we bring the food in at all diffent angles, heights and speeds, we then progress to dropping food and once again if the dog moves we step on the food and it can't get it. Its amazing how fast the dog learns that to get the reward the dog must stay still. Its my guess that if there are no issues soreness wise your dog doesn't understand that sit stays means keep you bum on the ground and don't move, so perhaps the above exercise might make it clearer to the dog. A question for you.....I am not sure what stage of agility you are up to - but if you are doing sequencing - if you leave your dog at the start line in a sit - does the dog lift its backside, wriggle or move???

Poppy - my Lexi is very unsure in stays is always looking sideways to see what is going to come and get her. In March this year at the Western Classic - we were in novice and the GSD next to us got up in the sit stays and stood over Lexi. The dog did not hurt her physically but psychologically it was the end of the world for poor Lex. The judge gave us three attempts to repeat the sit stay that night and I would have had more chance of winning first division lotto. It had such an effect that a few nights later I attempted to do sit stays with lexi and the rest of my kids and she couldn't cope with that - she got up, or dropped. In the end I had to go right back to basics and with just Lexi build her confidence by putting her in a stay and going back and continually rewarding. I then added Blaize into the picture as she is my most reliable dog and once again started close in and kept going in and rewarding - then I added, Scoota and beans and in the end at home in the back yard we didn't have an issue. I then took it back out on the road - and once again it fell to bits - with my dogs she was OK - but introduce another dog and it was anxious and would drop in the sit stay. I then started training with a guy with a GSD who also had stay issues. At this point I decided not to do sit stays at all and I would put lexi at one end of the lineup and in the middle I had one of my other dogs and then we had the GSD. We kept a good 2m between dogs. and I stood relatively close - kept giving her verbal encouragement and going back and rewarding. Both dogs have come a long way. I can now have Lexi and the GSD side by side. When I go out of sight - I will often come back and reward or come into sight and give verbal praise. I have also introduced a verbal release cue (FREE) - so I will go back to the dogs and say exercise finished, three blind mice and eventually I will give my release word and they have now learnt that until I give this word they don't move. So my advice is to get her out with other reliable dogs. Don't be in a rush to do full distance stays - stay close and continue to reward both with food and verbal praise. Increase duration before going back to square one and increase distance. Good luck - I think sit stays should be outlawed

pip - does you dog carry anything around in her mouth at all eg a toy??? and have you tried asking her to hold anything else other than a db? Is your db wood or plastic? - I guess this question should go to dogdude as well - have you tried a different sort of dumbbell?

When she presents. She holds it too loosely, and lets it slip back into the back of her mouth, then does this little "minnie chomp" thing. I was always careful of the point in which I released, so it doesn't seem to be an anticipation thing, like a food rewarded dog sometimes does. ETA: Sometimes I think that just trying to draw breath is causing it. I have got her going out pretty hard, and by the time she gets back, she is blowing pretty hard. Surely I can have speed and a good hold at the same time? Going back to basics - if you have her sitting and give her the dumbbell to hold - what does she do? If you place the db at her feet and standing right in front of her and ask her to fetch - does she still reposition and chew?

We're not trialling in obedience yet, but can I jump in? I have a sighthound mix, who for quite a while I have been trying to teach her the start of the retrieve - just to hold something in her mouth. We gradually "shaped" it up from look at dumbell, touch dumbell, take dumbell in mouth.... at which point, she launches said dumbell across the room!! I've tried different items, but for her, she always sees them as either a toy, or something that needs to be killed Any suggestions on what I can do about it??? When the said toy goes flying across the room - what do you do???? And just checking at what point id the holding process did it become a missile?

Dogdude - is the mouthing as she is running back to you or only when she presents?

Oh goodie some more issues - glad to see I am not the only one Some feedback on the suggestions people gave me to try with Beans to stop her stepping to the right when I give her a down signal in the COP. Firstly, she doesn't step if she is on the move - so a drop on recall she goes straight down. The size of the step to the side seems to be related to the distance I am away from her. So 1m in front and she still steps sidways - but it is only a small step. 5m away and it is a sizable one. Me taking a step to the side and then giving her the down signal - made no difference whatsoever - she still stepped. I tried giving her a sit signal and although smaller - she still stepped sideways. I did set her up on the side of the driveway and gave her a down signal and she just stood there - so I broke her off and tried it again and this time she went straight down without a sideways step. So thanks for the suggestions I will keep using some of these and going back to basics and will let you know how we progress. If anybody has any other suggestions - I am more than happy to hear them PS - Jules P I hadn't thought of the agility connection. I do have to say that Beans has her masters agility title, but she is the most unmasters dog out there and she tends to run around with me and stuggles with distance handling. But I will keep it in mind. Thankx

I can't possibly change arms as I am so unco with my left. I am also working 5 dogs and trialling 4 of them. My first dog Lara had one set of signals and then I started working Blaize and decided to change my stand and about turns. Well the number of times I did the wrong signal for the wrong dog, or the wrong turn - it was just lucky for me that Lara had more clue than I did So for the mere fact that I need to keep it uniform for all I will leave this one. But I will certainly try the step to the side to see if that makes any difference at all. Dogdude - I know a lof of people who teach DOR and COP on a step or a verandah - so that the dog can't move forward. I am not sure if she will put two and two together and not move sideways if there is a small drop there or not. Yep I agree I need to pattern train and get it right before making it harder and then taking it out on the road. Anybody else got a problem you would like some suggestions on how to cure or am I the only one with an issue ;)

You might both be onto something Erny and Ness - thanks for your suggestions. I will try mixing it up more and sometimes doing a sit. I am not sure if I asked for a sit whether a) that would fry her brain or b) whether she would still step sideways. I will also try reducing the distance to see if I can work out where it actually goes pearshaped and build reliability before building distance. So if a dog was moving forward would you recommend the same things - or would you suggest something different?

Erny - I am standing in front of the dog - a usual COP is about 5m approximately - but as I said she will still move sideways if I reduce the distance to 3m. Perhaps even 3m is too far and I need to go even closer and reward when she gets it right and give an oh too bad so sad when she gets it wrong. The one problem I have in trying to solve this issue, or any issue, is that tollers don't do well with repetition - they either start throwing all sorts at you because they think they have got it wrong - or the bigger problem is that they start anticipating - and I have visions of her dropping as I walk away to leave her

Any object on her right, no matter how small, will stop her from stepping to the right. I have created the problem - because I didn't go back and fix it when it first started happening And like all novice dogs you have problems with the dog sitting up, or not sitting up in most cases - so I stopped worrying about the side step and started rewarding/Jackpotting the sit up. Distance related - nah I can pretty much bet my house on her stepping sideways no matter how close or far away I am standing - its almost like she thinks this is part of the exercise, and she is only going sideways - not forward at all So I am open to suggestions - and will give them all a go in an attempt to solve her little issue PS in her first UD trial last week - the judge commented on her sidways step before dropping and said isn't that cute she was trying to line herself up to present straight ;)

The off season is the time to sort out issues that we have had during the Obedience trialling year. Here is the chance to post an issue and get feedback on whether others have the same problem, or some hints on what you would do to cure the problem. Please join in - I believe that everybody has something to offer My problem..... well Bean's really In the COP (change of positions) I give the down signal and she takes a huge step to her right and then drops. ;) She has always done this. If I stand her next to a post or a cone then it doesn't happen, but usually in a trial you don't get the chance to use a post or a cone and it usually costs us a couple of points. Any suggestions on how to cure this ......please

Leopuppy - I can't view your photobucket round, but the first one you posted whoever says that obedience is boring and dogs don't enjoy it need to be shown this clip. Kinta has a bounce to her step, has a smile on her face and is enjoying every minute. You have done a terrific job with her

TerraNik Jedi's attention was lovely - I can see why this round is special to you and I am not even thinking of his allergy issues. Fingers crossed you can get his health issues sorted and can get back into the ring.

So you will both qualify and be let loose on patients in the same year

What exams?!!!!!!! 4th year Uni exams - next year she is off to the country on a rural scholarship - 10 months in Kalgoorlie and then back to Perth for her final year. haven't you just had exams TerraNik????

My daughter passed her exams 4 years down.......... 2 more years to go

Well done Don't you hate it when you lose more points than the dog Good luck training for open

Cortavance is what they are flogging for feet chewing at the moment. Terranik - heres hoping that you get Jedi sorted so that you can get back into trialling.

Is EPO the answer????? Have you tried another shampoo?? We were put on Pyoderm S and malaseb for the feet. On bad days I upped the Zyrtec to one tablet morning and night. I was also using Capstar during the warmer months as Beans is allergic to fleas. We started off on 3 x 1500mg fish oil per day and then changed to emu oil. We have done it tough but managed to avoid the steroid path

Terranik - I will watch the clip when I get home tonight. What allergies does Jedi have, has he always had them and how do you treat them. Does the treatment affect his performance or are the allergies enough to do that?? Just asking since Beans has allergies to the max and is on immunotherapy.