MarkS

It appears the Dane has upset the dynamics of the pack that was already established. In regards to fixing this problem, it honestly comes down to LEADERSHIP, you need to be this dogs leader, you need to set rules and bounderies! Appears from your post this dog after settling into the pack is now asserting himself for position. YOU maybe contributing to this by not having the correct relationship with your dogs. You really do need to have a professional behaviourist come around and assess the situation and the relationship you have with your dogs, and how they view you in relation to the structure of the pack. A good packleader maintains control of a pack. You must see yourself in this role, and more importantly your dogs need to see you as a trusting and assertive leader. This is quite a common problem and can in most instances be corrected fairly quickly with the right methods. In regards to the Dane chasing the sheep.. If your friend really wanted to stop this behaviour, it can quite easily be very quickly modified by doing some avoidance training with the Dane.

:cool: :D ;) Well done sharpie!!

Excellent post Erny This why I also have a problem with off-lead dog parks. Sure in 'most' circumstances they are great for dogs to socialise and exercise. But all it takes is for one dog with the wrong body language and energy to enter the park, for the whole energy of the peaceful and well socialised pack in the park to shift. How many times I have seen someone bring a dog into a park that is obviously in total control of the owner and it's environment go in and try take over the park with overly assertive body language and state of mind, because this how it was ' taught' to socialise within the family. Charge up to other dogs, jump all over them and try to dominate, because this is how they introduce themselves to others (people and dogs) in the home. What you stated about teaching the lab and Mastiff X bounderies in regards to proper socialising is a good one. I hate it when I see obedience classes just allow the dogs to go crazy with each other, before doing any training, to 'as they say' allow them to socialise before the training starts. You see dogs with overly assertive behaviour charging in and taking control. This is where problems can arise. I prefer to start the training first, instill some obedience and a more submissive and calm behaviour first, then I allow the owners to let their dogs socialise, but ONLY if the dog is in a calm state of mind, is relaxed, and only when given the "free" command. If the dog is displaying overly assertive behaviour, then I ask this owner to wait until their dog has switched into a calmer state. In my group socialisation classes, some dogs are not allowed to actually socialise freely for a few weeks (some even a couple of months). Until the rules in the dogs mind is set that he understands that the owner dictates when and how to socialise. Some see my rules within my class as wrong (not my clients), but I believe it is actually conditioning a dog with correct social skills. Dogs/wolves, etc in their natural state don't socialise or greet each other by charging in and jumping over the other dog in a show of dominance. They are taught at an early age to first introduce displaying a calm state of mind and body languge. Sniff the behinds, and get to know each other first (unless you have of course 2 rank dominant dogs. But even they still introduce themselves naturally first before any challenge. They don't just charge in an try and take immediate control). Many, many in society condition their dogs with very un-natural and at times dangerous social skills.

Kelpie-i More importantly how many owners listen to inexperienced 'Franchisee's, believing they are highly qualified and experienced trainers/behaviourists. I suggest that these companies even maybe missleading the public in regards to how experienced their trainers/behaviourists are. Surely there is a law against this? Sure simple behaviour modification such as barking or pulling on the lead, or teach my dog to sit, stop my dog pulling washing of the line, doesn't really take much knowledge or experience in 'most' cases. But what about the more involved situations such as aggression (fear based, stress related, dominance related, etc,etc), overly assertive behaviour, insecurity, overly submissive behaviour, etc ,etc I had a case where an owner called one of these franchise companies out because her poodle 10 week puppy was showing signs of aggression and biting. This person told her not to worrry its just normal puppy behaviour. She ended up coming to me when this pup was around 12 months old because of its unpredictable aggression. Or the Dobi situation I stated in my previous thread. I think it's more of a numbers game. They know at least 75% of thier callouts will be simple cases. I know of one case where a lady rang a franchise owner about an overly aggressive GSD, she was informed that they couldn't fit her in for appointment for at least 2 months... Hmmm .. I wonder if the lady that rings about her dog pulling her washing of the line got an immediate booking? Really.. I think this profession needs to be more regulated (sad but true). And you should achieve a certain amount experience/training before being allowed to call yourself a professional. Can you imagine the outcry if the all of a sudden they allowed an electrician to call himself an expert after only 4 weeks training? If it wasn't such a dangerous situation it would be laughable. Footnote: My reference to Franchises in my threads are not necessarily in reference to Dogtech, but to dog training franchises in general..

Your dogs reward should be dictated by you and not your dog. Sure your dog should have his own toys to play with. My suggestion is have one 'special' toy that only comes out when 'you' want to initiate play, and is then put away when you decide the game/play is over. Other toys he has you totally ignore if he brings them over to you.

I have heap of info on my website go to http://www.caninetraining.com.au/dog_sense.html http://www.caninetraining.com.au/ecollar.html (This I just re-read and decided to edit it a bit. This is a very old article, and found I needed to make a few changes) http://www.caninetraining.com.au/PDF/staticpulsecollars.pdf http://www.caninetraining.com.au/PDF/e-collars.pdf

Yes and he even registered the term so nobody else can use it... Silly man.

Poor dog Consistancy here is of the utmost importance.. He is a very confused dog. Only pay attention to him when ALL 4 paws are on the ground.. Standing, sitting, etc. Everytime he rolls on his back just immediately walk away saying nothing. You can call him to you but again if he flops. walk away again. You really do need to be quick at re-enforcing the behaviour you want

Don't discipline! Just ignore. When he flops on his back, walk away call him to you... if he stands reward him, if he flops again, walk away.. He will get the idea soon. Seems this overly submissive behaviour has been imprinted since puppy.

Yeah, but it will cost you... I suport NILIF Google is you best bet.. HEAPS of info out there ....

I agree with both ROM and Erny It's not the individual person, it's in my eyes the whole concept of a franchise. Anybody that states they can know it ALL or even most of it in just 2 to 3 weeks is beyond me! We are not dealing with a Doggy Wash Franchise here.. I have been working with dogs now in a professional manner of over 27 years.. I would not even sugest I know it all. Canine psychology and behaviour is an ongoing learning process. We all come across dogs that test our abilities and knowledge, and give us new insights into the canine mind. I know of one instance. A new franchise owner was called due to an overly active Dobi. They had 3 lessons with him, and in the end said I am sorry I can't help you anymore, and refunded their money. I really felt for the franchise owner. He was probably a young person that just wanted to train dogs for a living, and got sucked into the advertising of " We can make you a canine expert in 2 weeks, and you can make lots of money". I don't blame the franchise owner, I blame the head of the franchise for, in my opinion, falsely advertising that you can be an expert in your field in such a short time. This Dobi was just a typical high drive, high energy working dog, that the owners needed specialised advice that this person could not offer due to lack of experience and knowledge. I don't care what anyone says.. you can't learn it all in 2 to 3 weeks in a classroom. This industry needs to be better regulated. I also believe that dog trainers that start up a franchise in this manner should really do some soul searching, and really consider if what they are doing is in the best interests of thier clients and the dog training/behaviour profession. Would you trust an electrician to wire your house knowing he only completed a 2 to 3 week course? Why then do we trust them with our dogs? I agree there are probably many within the franchise that have been working with dogs for many years and do a great service to dog owners, and that use the franchise to help them run their business and get lots of advertising exposure. However I really feel its taking pot luck. Oooops my apologies - its 4 WEEKS TRAINING Dogtech - Australia at a GlanceConcept:In-home dog training Territory:Franchises available in most parts of Australia Training Provided:4 wks + ongoing training and support Marketing Support:National & local promo Agreement Terms:3 years plus 3 years Number Of Units:Over 30 franchisees. Investment Required:From $20k to $35k Business Established:1996 Franchising Commenced:1997 Qualifications Required:Motivated, business minded person with a love of dogs.

Point taken Kelpie-i And agree with you. And yes in regards to training the dog in drive, could be the wrong way to go. My personal opinion drive training if you are using it, should also include not training in drive. Doing the command or obeying because I said so. I feel if inexperienced people focus to much on drive training, they can inadvertantly be playing into an assertive dogs hands. Don't get me wrong, training a dog in drive is the best way to get sharp focus and quick responses. But for overall calm home discipline it's not always the best way to train. Having said this..a high drive dog does need to be able to express its drives, so training and or working in drive to help the dog express these instincts is good..but it should also be trained with drive extinguished. Most dogs that are trained almost entirely in drive. ie; dogsport, are usually kennelled, as they are trained purely for a purpose, and short term intensive focus, not for general home discipline. I know my theory on all of this will get some people up in arms saying "I train my dog in drive all the time, and he is a wonderfully well behaved dog" I am just sugesting there are always exceptions to the rule.

Yep I agree with you Kelpie-i I just get the feeling there are too many inconsistancies. I have lost count of the homes I have been to because of overly active dogs. I take one look at the energy of the owner is projecting, and I see exactly what is triggering this overly stimulated dog. If this is imprinted from puppyhood, the puppy also learns to control its environment in this way... Going over the top when visitors come over, during play, when socialising with other dogs, etc, etc. So many owners don't really understand the theory behind when you pay attention to your puppy/dog, you are also reinforcing a current state of mind. I have seen so many dogs use overly active behaviour to dominate/be assertive, because it works. Once the puppy has had this behaviour imprinted, just the tone of a voice can set the dog off into control mode. Many owners don't even realise the energy they themselves are projecting until someone points it out to them.. as 99% of the time its subconscious. Now I am not suggesting this is the problem here, as none of us are in a position to evaluate the situation properly. But usually it takes someone outside the picture to sit back and observe the relationship between owner and dog. Just because a dog will do all the obedience commands, doesn't always mean its a dog that isn't controlling the family. We also need to look at the percentage of success of the dog responding to the commands, and the real reason behind why the dog is responding to the commands. Is the dog conditioned to expect a reward for the wrong state of mind, and if so was this dog reward whilst in an assertive state of mind, etc, etc..... We really do need to becarful about making judgements without understanding the whole picture. But a high drive dog, and controlling the home usually (imo) is a result of its environment.

Hi Rachelle My concern as from memory you say she is calm in the back yard? Am I right? If it is environmental, and her overactive behaviour is not constant..then I am not sure Hyperkinesis is the problem. As her environment shouldn't affect this. I still tend to think it's an issue of her environment... I know I could be TOTALLY wrong..but from the info you have supplied, I think we need to look at what triggers her over active behaviour and work from there. Keep a diary and note when she is overly stimulated, and when she is calmer..Find out if there is a pattern. Looking for the triggers is I feel the first course of action. Of course if it is constant..and she is rarely calm..then yes Kelpie-i may have hit the mark. I am just one that believe medication isn't always the best way to go..should be used as a last resort. But thats just me..everyone is different.

www.canineshop.com.au Still in the process of adding stock and completing the site... More work than I realised setting it all up. But the leads are there. Cheers

Talking about Innotek. You could try their 'Zones' . These are very affective for training dogs to avoid certain areas/locations.

If you do a search online dog training shops you are sure to find them. Don't just look in Aus..try international. Usually from USA you have your leash within a week or so. I actually sell 6mtr and 10mtr long leads. Good quality with brass snaps.

Hi CBL When he refuses to follow on the walk, what do you do? Do you go mad at him? Do you get tense and angry inside? If so then you are creating avoidance. When he refuses to walk, honestly you must show leadership and just walk. You need to project calm and relaxed body language. He will get the picture that he must walk. Don't talk to him while resisiting, as if you try to encourage him with calming voice you could be reinforcing his behaviour/state of mind at that moment. Only encourage him when the resistance stops and he walks. Does he usually stop walking at a certain location. If so was this a place you maybe went mad at him for stopping and sniffing etc? Does he associate this place with punishment? Have you tried walking a different area/direction? Turning around and going home will not fix the problem. Dogs don't understand the concept of refusal to walk means we go home. Dogs live in the moment they don't think of the pleaure ahead, they only think of the pleasure they are experiencing now. Cheers Mark

I tend to have an issue with dog training/behaviour franchises. It appears to me as long as you have the money you can buy a franchise, do a 3 week course then advertise yourself as a professional, and walk into homes and give the impression and act like you've been training for years. I personally can't understand this. Sure some that buy in to a franchise have a background with dogs and buy into the franchise to help them fast track into the business. But there are also many that have virtually no background in dogs, and in 3 weeks are instant experts. I believe this franchise industry needs to be better regulated. There are so many dog trainers now starting up dog training franchises that it's turning the entire profession into a joke. In my opinion its more about the fast buck than a concern for proper and expert service. What next.... human psychology franchises? Just my 2 cents worth.

I think at the beginning we tried to give the best advice.. Get a professional in, thats my opinion. As is shown in many posts here..sometimes what we see happening is not exactly what is happening. We tend to colour our view with human emotions and intentions. Your initial post was about aggression and biting from a 10 week old puppy. Without the correct advice in person, this can turn into a major problem. An overly insecure dog, or an overly assertive/dominant dog..you don't want either from such a young pup showing so much aggression. The way you treat it now will imprint the type of behaviour it will adopt to deal with all situations later. With young children this is a disaster waiting to happen. I agree nobody has a right to judge you or your personal situation..But everyone has a right to be concerned about aggressive dogs mixing with young children. I hope you seek professional advice soon. Remember this pups true personality hasn't come out yet..you only just got him. A few more weeks may tell a completely different story. If your heart is saying "I should be concerned"..then listen to it..it is guiding you in the right direction.

Just re-reading your initial post. Maybe we are not looking at an overly high drive dog. Maybe we are looking at a dog that has learnt to control its environment by being over the top. Maybe all your dog needs/seeks is some strict and assertive leadership. You say your dog will not sit for more than a few seconds. In all honestly it shouldn't matter how much drive your dog has, you as packleader should be able to make your dog sit and stay sitting. Have you considered the possibility your training methods are not working? Also that you are not being assertive enough? Do you feel confident around her? Do you project leadership qualities to her? Are you sure she isn't continually testing you due to some inconsistancy in your relationship with her? Do you ensure consistant rules. Do you mistakenly reinforce assertive behaviour in her? Do you pay attention to her when she is displaying assertive body language? Dogs are a product of their environment, and the strongest influence is you. Earlier its stated that she adores you, and I think follows you everywhere. I think there are some very strong clues here. Just maybe you are not seeing the entire picture as it really is from your dogs point of view.

I agree with Steve. When I was talking about running.. I didn't mean just taking your dog for a run. This will not satisfy the dogs drive. I meant working your dog in drive and yes selecting games where your dog can also exhaust not only its mental energy, but also its physical energy. Yes mental stimulation happens when working your dog in drive. Your dog needs to focus, and drive training is the best way to achieve this, but make it physically challenging as well. We can work a dog in food drive, but not exhaust it's physical energy. I still believe that a high drive dog that is restricted from expressing its natural drive instincts can become a very stressed dog. Making a dog work for all its rewards is working the dog in drive. Even though we say we give our dogs plenty of exercise, this usually means at the most a couple of hours a day. What about the other 22 hours it's confined to, in the dogs mind, a sterile backyard? Some dogs were just never meant to be confined for long periods of time, in a small yard, and high drive dogs become mentaly bored very quickly, and also if it has high energy levels can become very stressed. When you bring your dog home from its fortnightly herding, what is your dogs temperament like for the rest of the day? Working breeds with extrememly high levels of (herding) drive should be on farms, and not confined to a yard. When a person says to me that extended periods of exercise and drive work is not an option, we are not looking at what is best for the dog. Without sounding mean, many in society tend to focus on their own needs and not the needs of their dogs. Not suggesting it's the case here. We should all sit down and decide if we really believe we are doing what is best for our dog, and not placing our own interests first. We can't make a dog do what it instinctively is not capable of doing. Trying to suppress drive for long periods, isn't fair on these types of dogs.

Again Tony I agree. Also if she is continually this overly active.. I am suggesting it could very well be stress related. Again, not being able to express her natural instincts enough. A dog that is constently in a high state of agitation and anxious, is a stressed dog, and not in a balanced state of mind. to me it really sounds like a VERY high drive dog that should be out running/herding a farm every day.. But then hard to say without actually seeing her. But fortnightly runs in drive work I am suggesting may not enough for her. What diet is she on?

Good points Tony. If its drive she is displaying, exercise, exercise. Remember she is a working dog. She needs to be able to express her drives. Walking her 20 mins to and hour a day may not be enough for her. She needs to get out and run, run, run,run. Tony has made many important points for you to consider. I personally don't agree with medication if its a dog that is becoming frustrated due to not being able to express her drives. How many hours a day is she confined to a yard with little stimulation?

Mark, how do you suggest this approach is used in a multi-dog home? For example, Coda will sit quietly at first and Jatz will be fussing around. Then Coda will get tired of waiting and he'll start to fuss by which time Jatz has usually calmed down. And so on it goes. Am I just not waiting for long enough perhaps? Next time you go for a walk with your dogs.. look at your state of mind and body language... I'd be interested to know. To many look at their dogs, but not at their own body language and the energy they are projecting at that moment. Are you really calm and relaxed when you go for your walks, or are you projecting a totally different attitude when you are about to go for your walk? Your dogs are a good judge of the energy you are projecting Sometimes it take us longer than our dogs to have the right attitude, body language, and the calm assertive behaviour we need to go for a nice walk We are to busy focusing on what our dogs should be doing.. and not looking at what we are projecting to our dogs.....