angelsun

Picked up a compact gazebo today at BCF and got an even better deal than advertised (got the floor model that hasn't got a mark or ding on it!) Although Tony is well known for making deals, because of the sale price, didn't dicker...as it turned out, he picked up the Market Gazebo first, after the sales clerk told him it WAS the compact one....said he didn't have to open it, as it was just fine and the right one. I knew when he got home and hauled the box out of the car, it wasn't....we called...yes we could have the floor model as there were none other in stock (as Tony swore to me he saw the right one with the three tiered legs in white powder coat) and down we go to swap the Market (grey colour legs and noticably thinner metal)for the correct Compact one. This was when the sales guy said, because they screwed up and we were inconvenienced, they gave us some money back when we thought it would be a straight trade! Yup....for a brief moment (and yes I"ll note this in a ledger somewhere) my man was speachless that someone gave HIM a deal and he didnt' have to go digging for it!

If they recommend using this product about a month prior to mating, and your girl is three weeks or a bit less from being in season, by the time she's ready to be bred (add 10-14 days depending on the cycle) there is your month.... I'm thinking that the ideal amount of time is a month prior to mating, however I doubt very much a few days will make much difference as to whether the product will help you with a successful result.

These are brought out (like the plastic versions a couple years ago) to help those that don't understand why anyone would use a pinch collar, not go off half cocked and abuse the owner of the dog that is wearing one. It's a politically correct thing really. The effect is no different than the traditional pinch collar that is self correcting when sized and fitted properly. There are also some out there that have spruced up their traditional pinch collar by weaving leather strapping and bead work between the metal parts to give the illusion that the collar is in fact a simple flat collar with bling. Again, it's not for the owner, so much as those that see the dog and this device and through lack of knowledge as to how and why it works, give the owners such grief. Naturally any of these collars, either solid or original variety are hidden in a coated breed. It is only those that own a smooth coated breed that seem to feel that they need to camoflage this tool due to the reactions of the public to seeing them.

If the handler attempts the sign but the dog can not or will not do it, they are deducted points (in the system being used here, it is ten points) If they don't know how to do it, but attempt it, same deductions and a quiet word by the judge after to practice, practice, practice! ;) Rally O is well on the way to being approved at this point. We are hoping unless something goes wrong to see this accredited for Jan 1/11

What do you consider 'proper' food perhaps? This is the jist of the debate...that yes, we could use food...but we have chosen not to....sure it takes a bit longer in some cases, but in some cases....not. It is only your opinion that pats are 'ok' and that some dogs won't work their hardest to get. I will disagree with you heartily on this in reference to my Shepherd I"m training who will spit out food and won't lower himself to play with a toy, but gets absolutely orgasmic for pats and back scratches. I can RELIABLY ensure that both dogs will perform tasks asked without food or what you might consider a 'proper' reinforcement because to them, the praise and pat on the head is worth more than any steak dinner. Food is something we give them to keep them alive. They know they are going to get it, because it's in their bowl at suppertime. Praise is something they don't need to keep alive, but we choose to reward them with as we feel with THIS particular group of dogs we're dealing with at the moment, it's a far higher reward than a bit of sausage. We are not discouraging the use of food, or should I put it in the current politically correct term, promoting drive work through food, we believe that these dogs work well without that. We are not saying that this method is more right or wrong, in spite of what some seem to have twisted around to beleive I'm saying, but that for these dogs, this works. Will it work with all the dogs in my future? Possibly not, but food rewards are given when actions are performed and not to build a so called drive in an attempt to get a dog to work better or faster as is often the belief. You are right about people losing tempers and harsh corrections. The key with this discussion is simply the definition of positive training. I teach positively, however I will correct when needed. I am positive with both dog and handler, as you can not just single out one side of the training team. If the dog/pupil are making multiple mistakes, you are correct, it means the teacher is not doing their job and giving them an alternative to come around the task and end with success (positive) The definition of positive reinforcement training however, has become very blurred with those that teach that you should never correct a dog, wear a choke chain or not walk around with a food pouch, and yes, I know of too many club/schools/instructors that insist the ONLY way to get the dog to continue to perform as a good example to society, is to always pack the food pouch, even when going for a walk to the park.

I also agree with 4Kelpies post. Well said and I wish more could fully understand how you can train without noticable reward such as toys or food and still get the job done. I have a dog I'm working with at the moment and he has NEVER had any food or toy reward for his work. He is ready for CCD and will be soon ready for CD, as well as Novice Rally. He works for praise and a pat and is focused. I could if I wanted to, teach him 'pet tricks' I choose not to, however my other half uses only praise to teach the German Pinscher pet tricks. No collar, no food, no toys....just 'good girl' and a head pat....in a very short time, she's learned a variety of tricks and will perform them without fail upon command. One trick in particular took about 45 minutes to sort out. (High Five with whatever foot he asks for based on his hand position) So you see, it can be done. Now remember, this is from a person that is old school training....he was shaping behaviours without even realizing he was doing it, because the dog was having fun, and so was he in the teaching! I've clicker trained dogs to do many pet tricks over the years, and before clicker was 'fashionable'. Many methods have changed over the years....for good or bad...but they have changed. We don't generally use an ear pinch anymore.

How long is the sale at BCF? is it running the same as the catalogue one?

I've not heard of Rally in teams, but hey...who knows!!! As for correct versus fast..I'm a firm believer that you do a quality run first and foremost...the time ONLY comes into it to sort out tie scores....if you get a perfect score but take twice as long, you will still win over the 99 score that took half as long as anyone else. (make sense?) There are a LOT of Anti Rally people out there...and the majority are those that a) have never done it b) consider it a threat to their obedience trials or classes or c) can't understand or do it. Yes you have to think...the judge only says "forward" and the rest is up to you, unlike traditional obedience where the judge is constantly telling you what to do.

this is not MY assumption, but the statement on the Delta website as well as those that promote the society.

I have NEVER stated that dogs trained with food are unable to work in trials, so please do not imply that I have or put words into my mouth. I have never stated that they are lesser trained. What I have stated is that based on the ORIGINAL post which asks the question, based on that sort of class or method, what to expect overall. Read my lips..I have and do use food rewards.....I do not ban them from my class, however when attending some Positive reinforcement classes, they ban actions such as the use of a correction collar or stern commands when needed. I have seen many high in trial dogs that have a bag of hot dogs waiting outside the ring for when they are done their last exercise in obedience, and yet I have seen equally as many high in trial dogs that walk outside the ring and all they get as a reward is a high five and a good pet. Both cases....dogs have had perfect scores..... The issue is not removing rewards but CHANGING the reward to something you never run out of. Food rewards are fine as long as you remember to fill your pockets, but for those dogs that work only for a treat, what happens when your pocket runs dry? Since they haven't been encouraged to work at the same level for food as they could for praise, suddenly they 'shut down'. I have a dog here that is very food driven and will stand on his head if I show him a treat.....he works well and gives me the behaviours I ask. I have another dog that is not food driven, and works just as well and gives me the behaviours I ask, and yet I only have praise and a pat on the head for him. This is not an argument over 'give food or not give food' this is a discussion about the extremes that happen in training. A method where food reward is the only issue and in fact is often used to reinforce unacceptable behaviours because the trainers are not as good as they claim to be, compared to trainers that yank and pull and bully the dogs into submission. Both in my opinion are wrong and unproductive other than the bullied dogs do tend to comply, but work out of fear motivation compared to wanting to work. I can't stress again enough that I am not opposed to food rewards, however I AM opposed to the use of food rewards to the point where clearly the dog is not learning but simply being fed or in fact being reinforced on a negative level for behaviours or lack of them.

I've got a few issues with this method, firstly the tie out part. In my opinion, to tie a dog and 'tease' it with food is just not on. It is being implied that the food issue elevates the human to alpha status and although this is partially correct, this method is simply not something I consider or condone. Our dogs from the earliest age are taught to sit and wait for their food. They are released (OK) to eat. Our fast eaters are held longer in the wait position with the food about six feet out front while they remain in a sit position. They watch to us for the release command and we alter it between a verbal OK and a finger snap. All the dogs watch us during preparation or during the feeding process as the 7 shepherds are fed all together and loose in the yard and without incident. None of them have been tied up, fed alone to elicit a food drive behaviour and yet they all work when asked and respect us as alpha. I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why the average pet owner feels the need to 'train in drive' mainly because I think most do not fully understand the term. I beleive (and this is my opinion only) that the term is misused by most and that the results from someone believing they are training 'in drive' are in fact not much different than some good old fashioned training we used to do using common sense, years ago. I've trained in schutzhund, agility, obedience and tracking...all of which need a level of drive to succeed or to motivate a dog to work, however I never have used what is considered to be a specific 'in drive' method as I do not believe that there is really such a thing. Using various exercises to stimulate a dogs problem solving ability perhaps, but calling it 'drive training' is something I would never consider doing. It's simply common sense training. I find it such a shame that society has created a group of pet owners that need to be taught to be humans, and therefore superior (alpha) to their pets. I however would not condone this method as there is a fine line between being Alpha and to be honest, driving a dog bonkers. Question then, do you really beleive that the control of feeding mannerisms and the focus of a dog to either the food bowl or the human, creates a 'drive' in the dog that will continue after the meal is over? I'm sure this will spark a few flames my way, so be it....such a shame that it will happen simply because I disagree with a method. I've trained a lot of dogs over the years, all of which have one issue or another. Food aggressives, non food motivated (to the point they would starve themselves as they have no interest in food at all) and yet I can say that on both sides of that pendulum swing, have ended up with excellant working/performing dogs. The dogs here know who's boss be it at meal times or any other time, and didn't need to be segregated or tied up/restrained to get to that stage. (flame away)

Thanks Piper, I like to see what I'm buying (be it in store or on a website listing) instead of simply picking up the phone and calling.

Does this Harris Scarfe have a website and can you purchase online?

Huski and a few others: You are misunderstanding what I am saying. Firstly I am not against food rewards, as I have said multiple times that during the beginning process I do in fact use food. I also use toys if needed, so claiming that I am against dogs that are food trained, or feel that they will not succeed overall is not true. I also brought up the mention of low versus high food rewards in response to another posters comment. This was not my experience with the belgian but anothers and yes, it does happen all the time, specially with a dog that has a low food drive. (try a great dane for example) Handlers with bad timing are in fact responsible for mucking up a dogs effort, however not all handlers are inept with a clicker, in fact many work it very well. The key again is to work the dog to the shape/behaviour desired and then wean the dog off the cliker (food) which I was told by a trainer in QLD that it was impossible to do. In their opinion, when clicker training, it is forever. There was nothing I could do to explain to this person that clicker, like any method is a tool that works if done properly but you MUST move beyond the actual clicker as a reinforcement because as mentioned by Longcoat, it as well as food and toys are not permitted in a trialing situation and my experience watching overly rewarded dogs (not little babies) is that they are not able to work without having rewards stuffed in their faces constantly. Does this mean that the instructors are wrong or the method is wrong? I beleive the instructors aren't as smart or knowledgeable as they would claim to be. I've said MANY times before, I do not have any issues with TRUE positive reinforcement training. But like so many methods out there, this one left to some, has turned into basically a joke. A true positive trainer SEES results and the level of food lowers as the training moves along. The reality though, which escapes some here in the is thread, is that you do not always have food in your pockets....how do you reward then? As for the comment made by me about distractions....it was taken to beleive that these were placed with young and inexperienced dogs, which is not true nor was intended to read that way, as I stated that during the sit/down/stay exercises the distractions were littered across the floor. It's called 'proofing' and isn't done with beginner dogs. However my beginner dogs are challenged with distractions and dogs are not pushed aside because they might be one to the rest of the class which was one of the statements made earlier in this piece. Going back to the main poster and the observations they had at the 'feed it til it drops' class, this discussion was based on that method versus anything else, and what people thought about it. Like so many positive threads to educate, this is beginning to turn into a heated debate on 'youre wrong and I'm write" sort of thread. I can not stress enough....I am not against positive training, however based on behavioural aspects of dogs, and years of experience with a great many breeds, I can not be convinced that the methods currently being used by Delta are in fact in the best interest of the dogs or their humans.

Rally (Obedience) is on the left and combines with the traditional skills nicely, in fact Rally skills make for better traditional obedience. You learn more doing Rally and the skills encourage better and more precise traditional obedience.

Yes I agree in what you are saying that the BH is a far superior and more difficult test than a CGC ever could hope to be.

It won't just be Mason that is tuckered out...so will you be! As for the CDX dogs of advanced years..this sport is perfect for someone like you that wishes to continue to compete and trial, and yet is concerned about the welfare of your dogs, or has dogs that simply can't progress beyond CDX for whatever reason or another. No one to date has committed to hosting a seminar in Adelaide. A few have chatted about it, but for one reason or another nothing has been done. Hopefully someone out there will take the bull by the horns....I don't have the connections to organize it, but I do help if needed to advise what should be done for advertising and how to run one of these.

This is very true and the sign of a well 'proofed' dog. During many of the classes I had in Canada, during the sit/down stay exercise, I would drop chairs on the floor, toss tennis balls and leave dog cookies laying around. With those same distractions littering the floor, we would go into recalls.....a properly trained dog will get its reward from the handler, not what is under foot or laying around. What is that reward? Well it's different for every dog and yes, sometimes it's food....but it's hard to not let a dog self reward in regards to food if there is food laying all over the place. The same can be said for a toy driven dog when it sees a bunch of balls on the floor. Praise however is one of the few things that isnt' laying around and should be given in plenty of quantities and only from the handler to the dog. This is a tricky reward to use on many dogs, and although I do begin with food treats if needed, the key is to wean them off quickly, teaching the dog that my praise is in fact the best motivation for working. Dogs primarily rewarded with food or animate objects often can run into problems performing when the reward is not there. What I mean is that they may do the task once and come up short with the reward the dog finds satisfying, but most dogs won't be fooled the second time. (similiar to the story of the Belgian and the high value reward versus low value reward) the problem is however, soon, the high value reward, isn't so high anymore....where do you go from there when you are using food? Kibble to cheese to sausage to......well.....uhm..... My concern with food trained dogs as a primary source of motivation is simply that in my opinion, many trainers are failing to reward correctly (like people that are not timing right with a clicker) or rewarding for anything and everything and thus the dog has no idea what is positive. everything in life is not positive for dogs or humans...it's just how it is. What about when you run out of food? You never run out of praise...but if your dog is geared to eating, and not thinking/working....where will you end up? I personally would like to see the statistics of Delta trained dogs, that have achieved things such as CCD's or above. We can't use the numbers for CGC because only that society runs the test, and people must take their six week course before being allowed to take the test. This skews things drastically as dogs that are trained in other methods would be added to the success stories when in fact, they should not be. Take those numbers and compare them to traditional methods of training using correction collars/food/toys or whatever methods the club/class considers appropriate. The arguement has been lately that the Delta trained (positive reinforcement) dogs are simply to provide a better pet for the owner. Traditional obedience training also does that. The difference is simply that the former dogs in many ways are not prepared for the stress that comes from trialling, where as the latter more often is proofed and conditioned for it. I will state again, that I am NOT anti positive training...I use whatever method I need to use for the individual dog to get the final results desired.

What breed? Manchester Terrier How old was the dog? 3 years old Was there a familial component? not to my knowledge What was the dog being fed? Need some detail of what exactly - if dry food, which one, if raw, what it was Raw How often was he fed? Once daily or more? once per day and in the evening Was his bowl elevated, or on the ground? ground What was he doing when he bloated? (ie, at a show, at home, playing, at home alone) at home, not any sort of exercise in fact if memory serves she was snoozing on the pillow in the hall when I noticed her start to get uncomfortable Has he bloated more than once? twice Has he had a gastrowhatsit? LOL (too lazy to look it up, but you'll know ) no Did he ever bloat after that? n/a Did the dog also suffer GDV not to my knowledge as we did not use a vet on either case Did it have surgery? no What was done to relieve the bloat? [/b] I induced the dog to vomit and then walked about a million miles slowly in circles in my front yard to gently produce a swaying motion which in many cases will solve the problem and in this case it did. After about an hours walking (and stopping to vomit occasionally) it was clear that the tension in the stomach was reduced and the dog began to clearly be less stressed. Another hours worth of walking reduced the stomach to correct size and feel (was no longer drum head tight) and the situation was fixed. Had the change not begun, I would have been prepared to insert a large guage needle to releive built up air, but it's not recommended unless you REALLY know what you're doing as you can in fact kill the dog with this if it's not done right. It is in fact a last ditch manouver in many cases.

I"m familiar with the BH testing and like it very much, however I will disagree that the tests are the same even in principal. The BH is obedience AND behaviour/temperament whereas the CGC although has small elements of obedience is severly lacking in my opinion. I've done the BH (in North America) and done both AKC and CKC CGC testing many many times, as well as being an evaluator for the latter. I'm a bigger fan of the Temperament Testing done that bases responses to stations on the breed and how that breed would respond or react. Lets face it, a GSD should NOT react the same way as a Golden Retriever or a Bassett Hound, and yet many alleged temperament tests lump them all in the same. The CGC is no exception.

We go through all the stations and explain them all in detail as well as you won't be sitting the whole time as you will have to go 'do' some of them to learn them properly. (I"m a firm believer in doing to learn properly) Because of time restraints, we can't do advance or excellant courses....we just don't have the time....the lecture is 6+ hours with short breaks and every minute of it is used and lets face it..you only want to listen to me and this accent (what accent?) for that long!!! The next day goes as long or longer depending on the group and you will be exhausted by the time I let you call it a day. My hope is that those that attend that are instructors, will take these basics and begin teaching classes to use the more advanced stations and prepare for the trials that will happen. As it turns out, I"ve not been welcomed to teach rally at the local dog club (go figure that mentality!) or I would be offering rally classes which progress people through the levels. This is something that needs to be done through your training club. All I can do in two days is explain the stations and how they work and beleive me, you will have a full head of it with Novice....as I say, wish I had a full week to train you all, but I don't. (I've got to train a mob of judges on the Monday after the Perth Seminar so yes, I"ll be toast by the time they plop me back on the plane and send me home....poor Tony will have to deal with a very tired and likely grumpy wife when I return!!)

This holds BIG concerns for me for a number of reasons...firstly....these trainers present themselves as people that can take any dog with any problem and fix it using only positive/food methods. The website also presents these people as 'some of the highest qualified' in the country and proclaim their Certification Level 4 as the be all, end all. Now if this is the actual case and this qualification is what they present it to be, then having a problem dog, would not present a problem....(pardon the play on words!) It strikes me very odd that a group of people, that loudly proclaim their method of instruction IS THE ONLY CORRECT WAY, and yes, they are indeed that vocal, will pass off or ignore dogs that are disruptive or difficult or come with problems. The next concern is this, and this is happening in my region.....These instructors have falsely told people that correction collars are not allowed (against club rules) on the premises of the training/show grounds.....therefore with that statement, and a dog show coming up in a week, no one would then be permitted to show their dog on a choke chain of any sort, in fact martingales are also considered incorrect, but head halters and body harnesses are acceptable. Now saying this, we have a large group of people that have been turned away through one reason or another from this group of instructors. They have been told that their dogs are not suitable, they as owners are to blame, or a combination of the above. They have an unruly dog with no hope of getting the instruction and support they need to turn that dog into a good member of their neighbourhood. This is the dog club...the Canine Club....the place where most would turn to with a dog, looking for help, and yet, because the intructors with their Certification 4 diplomas will not deal with dogs with problems and issues, be it dog to dog or dog to human, these dogs and their owners are left hanging and risk the worst fate because they are being ignored. This is where I came onto the scene, with a lot of years of practical training behind me, and when I say that, I mean training that makes a better social pet, AND can be used for trialling IF the team wishes it. I do not just do "pet" obedience...to me, obedience is obedience, full stop....I will polish you and your dog should you wish to trial, but to me, the same rules apply regardless of what you are going to do with your dog. I had a new student today....this makes in the past three weeks of getting together to train, the numbers going from a start of 4 dogs, to a group of about 12. All these dogs come to me with some issue or another....all are different little personalities to sort out and all are being taught the same disciplines, albeit with slightly different methods depending on the dog and what it needs. In less than three weeks, I've taken a dog with lead aggression issues to being able to be within a couple metres of another dog and most times, not reacting. This same dog that pulled her mom around, today did a stellar heeling routine full of tight circles and direction changes and really wanted to work....by the way..no food involved. I have a couple Sibes that because of their Delta training, would simply not even sit without food in front of them...they both now work well with praise only and are corrected only slightly for slow responses. And then there is my over the top GSP who's energy levels make me tired just watching her.....she now settles into work and heeling and is far less flakey...she is a play machine....high praise makes her worse....so we know now to keep the praise quiet and sporatic to make her work her best. All my class did exceptional today as they learned a lot of new things in both obedience and simple behaviour training. All but one came with a correction collar, and all dogs are learning to respond to the rattle that a properly fitted and used choke chain will do. Tails wagging, and people smiling because they are learning. But I will also mention that I'm in the black books with some, specifically the instructors that also train in the same location, simply because I buck the system.....(in their opinion) That I do not have a Certification 4 diploma issued by someone (I really don't know who issues them) to tell me that I am capable of training someones dog. And yet those same people with that slip of paper, won't take the dogs I have in my class....why.....simple answer...because they are NOT easy to work with, and these particular trainers and their methods do not want to show that they do not succeed, or it simplyl undermines what they are pushing out there as propoganda stating that their method is the only "HUMANE" method to use, and anything less is archaic..... Do I say no to my dog? Damn straight I do..I don't couch it by saying I use 'whoops' or 'wrong' or 'uh oh' etc....call it what you want, it's a negative tone, it's the same as saying NO....but perhaps the word NO is concidered politically incorrect now? That negative tone replaces the mother dogs low grumble when a pup is naughty, and the quick pop on the correction collar (is that politically correct enough instead of choke chain?) is the neck grip and hold that mommy dog does when needed. Pups know the rules....it's very clear to them and if we watch baby pups and their moms we see them being taught to respect.....then suddenly we humans take over and that well behaved pup that doesn't nip or bite, turns into the hound from hell.....why? Because we stopped being 'mommy dog' and began to rationalize with the pup.... I do say please and thank you to my dogs when they do as I ask or when I am asking them for a behaviour or action....but I do not reason with them. They love me anyway, and I"m pretty sure won't grow up and write a novel about how horrible I was to them as they grew up. (Remember "Mommy Dearest"?)

Yes, the novice has no jumps, but we will ONLY be doing novice courses as the Advanced and Excellant are off lead and that is not what we're focusing on...remember, we are there to make sure YOU the handler understands this sport...from there, you train your dog.

We can dance around this topic forever and there will always be some that disagree. The reality is, and it is not often acknowledged by the purely positive trainers, is that they have dogs that are not able to be manipulated with this method. Trainers using check chains are not all about evil pain infliction, and not all owners know nothing and this is the reason they go to training class. There are many methods that work, many variations within the methods and not one will work exclusively with all dogs, regardless of the brochures that are handed out to promote 'training school A' or 'B'. I've had dogs in the past that require a heavier hand, and dogs that if you look at them crosswise they turn into water. Using the same, or even similar methods on these would result in a confused dog that didn't know the boundaries of what I expected. As for trialing after two months...yes it's possible, and it doesn't have to be through positive reinforcement training. I've seen it with a good old fashioned check chain. I also had a mini aussie shepherd that after four classes could complete the requirements for a CD (in Canada) Again....check chain, BUT also food reward when needed but very little, and a ton of happy praise. So yes, it can be done to combine the two mentalities successfully. I've done it many times. There are no perfect training methods and it's like the arguement over which is better, raw or kibble for a dog.....no one has to prove their methods, because it's not a contest. In the end, whatever method or combination of methods, wins a well behaved dog. The arguement is simply that people should be permitted to choose what they beleive is correct for them and their dog to attain that goal.

Have they forgotten how a mother dog will discipline their young? How a wild wolf or dingo will discpline a naughty puppy?