angelsun

I think it's always important when trying to figure out if a pup has potential for whatever sport you are wanting to do, to do the testing to get a rough idea, but in the end, you must use common sense to help you decide in the end. As well, remember that a good trainer and good consistancy in training will be far more important than a score on a piece of paper when all is said and done.

I have used the Volhard testing in the past and althought it does give you a good idea (if done correctly) about the pup and what could be apparent as to personality and workable traits, like all methods of grading, it's not infallible. There are a number of similar testing proceedures out there that can claim similar results. Although I have seen pups assessed in certain ways that have come to pass as adults, I have also seen an equal number assessed to be one thing or another and at maturity, this not to be the case. It is important to remember that although genetics play a part in what makes any dog, who it is....enviroment is a huge factor....all too many dogs assessed as strong minded with good work ethic, can easily be ruined in the wrong home. Likewise, dogs assessed to be laid back, not dominant or with lower working drives, can turn out to be full on and amazing when it comes to some performance disciplines....it comes down to the motivation and committment of the trainers in that case. There are many stories of dogs that this sort of thing happens...going against the 'grading'. I myself have had a few pups in the past that graded low (when looking for the next performance prospect) only to find a month or so later, be amazing workers and go on to great things....if I put total stock in these grading tests, these dogs would never have achieved titles in performance as they would have been placed in non performance homes as couch potatos etc. Over the years I've graded pups for myself or taken part in other breeders grading days with different breeds, I can honestly say while I don't dismiss these tests and I will agree that they do provide some basic information, they should not be taken as the 'gospel' as to stating that the pup would turn out to be one way or another.

I've had quite a few girls that whelp two hours after eating their supper, not nesting at all, nor giving me any visible signs of contractions or labour...the moral is simply that the text books tell us certain things, but the bitches don't always read those books. Breeding is a crap shoot as far as I"m concerned....all can go wonderfully and easy or all hell can break loose or something in the middle and the longer we do this, the more chance we have of experiencing it all.

Was not questioning what you were saying, only that doing so was in fact in violation of the rules, so if the VCA encourages it, they are in fact breaking their own rules and as such ANKC as it's coming down from them. As we know, there are many things done in the world of dogs that are not always following the rule book. I was simply attempting to show what the actual rule was based on ANKC/VCA rule book as opposed to the many 'unwritten' and beleived to be 'real' rules that are around when it comes to dogs and shows/trials.

According to VCA rules: (bold is mine) Hoperfully that sorts a few things...I'm sure I"ve missed something but haven't had a chance to really go over the rules and regs..in short, although some clubs HAVE taken entries without numbers, they are in fact in violation to do so. Numbers must be in the owners hands prior to entry of a show/trial/event. (there is no provision that I can find for 'pending' when it comes to what is considered to be proper information on the entry form. Limited registration are ineligible for competition at a conformation show (any class)

I thinkI have this sorted..thanks to those that replied.

and then perhaps heading up to the North East for shows, that would consider meeting a person to pick up a wire crate at KCC park on a Saturday and bringing it up this way? shows coming up in Albury in a month or so that maybe a few might be heading to.....(hoping to save a six hour round trip if I can!)

I have always beleived that crappy temperaments produce the same....even having one dog of very strong or questionable temperament, will often result, in spite of all the best training and socialization and good things in a home, a dog that will be a problem. HOWEVER, I have also seen exceptional dogs be screwed up by owners in as little as a month (I had one dog tossed out back and basically forgotten=separation anxiety, another dog confined in a crate or behind a door of a small room=claustrophobic) I still beleive that genetics plays a big part of things, however enviroment can play a bigger part both good and bad....as many in dogs a while, we've seen dogs with issues be turned around and live settled lives without issues. I don't think that it's black and white in this subject...there is a lot of grey area deciding the answer to that question. I will still work to find the best temperamented dogs out there to breed with, but I know that it's only part of the equation in the long run.

I have a friend from the east coast hoping to find someone that might be travelling from Australia to Canada's east coast (although anywhere could work as she would ensure that the package be picked up) that would be willing to take an additional piece of checked baggage with them. She has ordered a trolley and the person that was to bring it, has fallen ill and won't be travelling. All costs plus some extra for your bother would be taken care of. She is a personal friend of mine, and I can vouch for her covering any expenses incurred (there would be an additional charge at the point of departure for the extra luggage) I know she would like to try to find someone travelling fairly soon, but any info on folks heading over there at any time, I will pass along to her and get her to contact the travellers directly. Thanks!

Do they work for people? *sigh*

Just bumping this up and reminding people about the seminar coming up in March in Shepparton Vic [email protected] Please contact for more information and to sign up. Looking forward to seeing folks attend. As well there will be a demo/fun day in Myrtleford coming up (details to follow) which will have a Rally course set up for anyone wanting to give it a go, as well as some agility, flyball and possibly conformation. Stay tuned formore details on this Ovens Valley Canine Club event.

Laptop is near by and internet hooked up so I can webcam to those wanting to watch...play games if I have to and listen to music etc. I used to have a futon by the whelping box so wasn't too terrible bad really....now that I"m here..have no idea what or how I'll be doing this....(we have a slight disagreement as to whelping arrangements for GP's compared to GSD's!)

I thought it was a well run show and noone really seemed too bent out of shape due to the weather...I'm betting the toy folks were VERY glad they were last on in their ring and the puddles had a chance to drain off and soak in, as it was half a lake by the time the deluge stopped!!

State firmly that you want the exhibitor to leave room. Do not ask as most of those sorts won't listen unless it's someone that simply didn't realize where they were and that does happen, but if it occurs frequently, they know better. If it persists, mention to the steward prior to going into the ring that you are having a problem with an exhibitor behind you, crowding/intimidating and generally not being ring polite. the other items mentioned work as well....you have YOUR space in the ring and do not let anyone else shove you out of it....once you start sticking up for your space and your dog, generally the pushy ones will leave you be. It's no different than someone in the breed ring, running up your dogs arse during judging....don't be afraid to stop short to make your point. If you do not stand firm with your rights to your space during judging, you will continue to be bothered by this sort of thing.

In spite the downpour which really didn't dampen anyones spirits, the show went well with only a few vehicles mired in the muck trying to get out! We picked up a couple challenges and a Junior in Group (5) so yes, good day for us.

Firstly, let me point out that I have double handled in both the specialty GSD ring and the GSD all breed ring..however I do not get assistance from anyone with a whistle, cowbell or squeeky as indicated in my first response. The trick to double handling is getting the dog focused as has been stated by others in this thread....tired or bored dog (regardless of the breed) can benefit from this sort of thing. I do not agree with the double handling techniques used SOLEY in the GSD ring and as such, never used them and yet was still competative being judged in that ring. If as has been mentioned, the dogs in that breed are being judged on endurance as well, I agree..get an ET...good on those that have achieved it as it's NOT easy to do for ANY breed. When the majority of people discuss double handling, the GSD's are usually first to pop into mind because of the circus that usually happens at a specialty show. Can't deny it people....there are lots of us that have seen it (and been doing it) and it IS in fact deplorable what happens all in the attempt to 'get a dog to focus' or simply keep him running..... I state again after being an all breed handler and doing not only GSD specialties but MANY other breed specialties...the GSD specialty events are well known for double handling and it being the accepted norm. The onlookers are in fact amused and entertained by this behaviour and as someone that's been both inside the ring and watched from the outside, I have seen the majority of dogs not respond to double handling..so therefore..is it effective? Someone commented earlier on how a squeeky used by another exhibitor would set off their dog to distraction.....distraction is not focus....we know that anything used to the point where it is not exciting and new, a dog will naturally begin to ignore the stimulus (because that is what double handling really is...a new stimulus) We have also seen time and time again, dogs being 'doubled' and not producing the desired results because 1)the doubler is in the wrong spot 2) the stimulus doesn't excite the dog anymore 3)too much stimulus results in a dog that is not focused on anything. I have been to everything from toy group specialties, to breed specific ones, from the big terrier shows in the States (Montgomery for those that are into the terrors!) and to working dog and herding dog breed specific specialties...there is not ONE of those that permits a second outside ring and blatent double handling.....All these breeds believe that their dogs are designed for a purpose and should be shown to their best to exhibit that strength, tenacity or motion as well of course as the basic conformation of the dogs and yet, there is not ONE breed or group out there ANYWHERE that permits the use of a double ring and people running around with whistles and cowbells.... Yes I double handle when I feel I need to do it...no, you won't ever know when I'm doing it and please...feel free to come ring side and try to catch me...many have....for many years...remember..I've been doing this a long time, and professionally for longer than I care to remember....I got paid to handle better and to know how to push the dogs buttons.... I personally would like to see ANY breed or group specialty judged in one manner....without the permission to double handle in the beleif that one breed is so special that it has the privaleges that other breeds either do not or would never desire to have. I beleive that if anyone discusses this matter with others familiar with their breed specialties, you would find that the GSD's are in fact a minority in how they do things at specialties. As for the comment about only one standard....please feel free to also ask the labrador people and the golden people that as well...they will be happy to tell you of those that breed "field" dogs versus conformation show dogs....they look and act differently.....such is also the case with the GSD breeders that breed for All Breed versus Specialty. However that is not the discussion....the case of double handling in fact is and hopefully I've answered or helped explain a few things that maybe others don't want to discuss.....

I agree that ANY dog that is stunning on the stack can fall to bits on the move, however a good judge can see that clearly by the first turn. As for judging on endurance, it's more the handlers than the dogs I think....that was always the running joke during specialties, that who ever kept running the longest was the winner..... I do not agree that running a ton around the ring shows if a dog is a better example of the breed..if that were the case we would require shotguns going off over the gundog ring, and whoever didn't bolt, would stay to be judged, we would release rodents to the terriers and those that snatched and grabbed would be eligible for a ribbon, and what about the other herding (pardon me, 'working') breeds that are not judged in the same fashion as the GSD? Are we assuming that the Border Collie doesn't have to be as fit and sturdy as a shepherd? Should we honestly beleive that the Corgies out there don't have to maintain their work and still be acceptable examples of the breed? Quite honestly, the fact that GSD's seem to have their own set of rules compared to ALL other breeds either in the specialty ring or the all breed ring has always amazed and amused me. I believe there is only one breed standard for the breed?

boy you said it there...agree...how silly of me to think such a thing!

I used Crown Royal mostly for intense cleaning and a few other good whitening shampoos that are out there, but be sure to dilute as if used too strongly, you can end up with a 'blue' dog or at least paws!! If the stains aren't coming out fully, you can use terrier chalk to whiten up before going in the ring, just be sure you pat or blow out the chalk before you walk in there!

Iagree I dont mind what people use to bait their dogs with but PLEASE pick up your food bait I totally agree....there is no reason to turf bait around and leave it there....yes it's harder to find it sometimes in the grass...but when I was showing inside for the most part on MATS and CONCRETE..there is NO reason not to bend over and pick up that slab of meat!!

Yes I have competed in the specialty rings in North America quite a bit. I gave it up a few years back when my back began to act up as I simply can't do the marathon running that these specialty judges seem to feel is needed. (which is another bugaboo of mine as if they can't see in one go round how a dog moves, they aren't going to see it after six go rounds!!) I also don't have the patience for the antics seen at the specialty rings...perhaps I'm getting too old and cranky! I also have never agreed with the condition of some of the dogs often highly rewarded at specialties which included roached toplines, sickle hocks and questionable temperaments.....yes, I am getting too old and cranky!

I agree with what you are saying re: legs all over the place, hyper and crazy GSD's and the inability to function without a doubler....have seen that FAR too many times. I agree as well that it's gone over the top when it comes to specialty events and the GSD's are the only ones 'privaleged' to do that sort of thing...however I should add at one of the last specialty events I did in Canada, it was announced prior to the start of the event that NO double handling would be permitted on ANY level, and as the judge announced this (not the steward) the ropes were being taken down for the outside ring....people's jaws dropped and the complaints followed furiously!! I laughed....thought it was a riot and wasn't surprised given who the judge was....that day, we saw how the dogs SHOULD be shown (in my opinion) and the big winners simply couldn't function and perform in that sort of atmosphere. As for toys being a distraction in the ring....well that's showing....and I have no sympathy for those that get bent out of shape....bottom line..train your dog....I came from the terrier ring where a squeeky mouse was mandatory equipment....knowing this, I never trained my dogs to respond to one...so yes, I had many handlers behind and in front try to distract with it, and get no where. Coming from the very competative AKC handling world where bait is thrown by the kilo in the ring I realized quickly that if I wanted focus on my dog, it was not because there was food..it was a case of training my dog to focus on me, and when it did, it got a bit of bait....there is a big difference in training methods to achieve that and when done, the dogs aren't distracted by food on the floor/ground or being tossed by someone else in the ring. The same arguement comes from those showing males when a female is in season and being shown...they bitch and whinge and whine about it being 'unfair' to their dog, or 'distracting'.....well until the rules state you can't show a bitch in season....get over it and find a way to be of more interest than the bitch is....I had a male that got one sniff of a bitch and he lost his head..took me a while and wasn't always successful but I managed to find his button that made me more interesting than 'that girl over there'. It all comes down to training. We are all out there to get the judge to look at our dog just a bit more than another....this is a COMPETITION after all.... As for calling a dog by its name....if the judge beleives they will look foolish for not putting up the bazillion best in show winning whatever....calling a dog by its name isn't going to matter much as they have already memorized who's on top in the point score or who had the flashier ad in Dog News.

Yes you can call the dog by name....and for puppies, I do...there are no rules stating you can not...only those wonderful 'urban myth' rules that many preach when showing.

double handling means a lot of things to different people...in GSD rings, it's obvious, annoying, humorous and entertaining just to name a few things and I"ve been on the inside of the ring many times watching other doublers attempt to get their dogs to show correctly and with animation with use of bells, whistles, balls and squeeky toys, never mind running madly around the outside ring and yelling and screaming. I showed a GSD one time with his owner outside the ring sitting quietly on a chair 'reading' the catalogue. The young dog knew where his mom was and I kept whispering in his ear..."find mom....where's mom?" That was all he needed to keep those ears up and look around with attentiveness.....during movement, his mom quietly chirped from behind the catalogue as we turned the first corner, to which he responded by digging in and really stretching out as he looked for his 'mom'. He wasn't out of control or attempt to not go where he shouldn't..and each time we turned corner two, she did the same chirp and he dug in again....we went puppy in specialty show that day...no bells and whistles and squeekies and no one thought we double handled. I've double handled in the all breed ring simply by asking a friend who the dog knew well, to stand in one spot and quietly watch....I would whisper in the dogs ear...'where's your auntie XXXX' and the dog's attention level jumped....the person standing knew that if they saw the dog get fidgety or unfocused, they simply had to cough or sneeze or even just drop their catalogue and pick it up.....because I knew where they were, i would make sure the dog could catch sight of them...it was all that was needed...that's double handling. As well you can double in the ring off another dog and it works well many times as long as the other people are not bothered by it, which means good manners on the exhibitors part. If my dog feels that dog behind him/her is fascinating....I"ll let her/him turn and stare at it....often in my breeds case, tail wagging and rolling up on the toes, so just doesn't look much better than this...(was great in the terrier ring) Many times did I find myself in a ring with a Pinscher only to have a manchester walk by and the Pinscher stand up and stare.....no doubt wondering if that was 'our' manchester that came to the show that day.....used to happen when some would see Sammies (who were raised with the white fluffies) and again when I had a mob raised with Cresteds.... One time I was showing a Pinscher and he was totally fixed to something in the crowd..so much so EVERYONE including the judge saw it and tried to figure out what he was looking at...he was a statue....turns out it was a person with a toy manchester on their lap watching my ring.....we won the group that day...and yes I did thank the person with the MT for the win! that's double handling...intentional or not...many more stories of both I can list....if you want to double...just be smart and do it so you aren't looking like you are...it's not rocket science, just good handling skills and a team of people that also know how to read the dog that's in the ring. I want to add re: name calling....I usually don't use the dogs name in the ring, but mostly that's out of habit as a handler I often couldn't remember their names!! One time though (to turn this around a touch) I was showing at an invitational event...to be eligible you had to have an All breed Best in Show to go....showing my pinscher he was busy watching the dobes in the next ring to which the judge who wanted his attention on her, called out his name in the ring..yes he snapped his head forward.....

It's got nothing to do with ANKC from my sources, it's Victoria law.