Wobbly

haha it's certainly very interesting to compare the Jarrah of then, with the Jarrah of now. Two very different dogs! Two very different Wobblies too, I have certainly learnt a vast amount in the last 5 or 6 years. It's a huge shame the people in the OP weren't a bit dedicated to their dogs, they missed a wonderful opportunity. The Bull breeds are absolutely amazing, so funny, friendly and charming, I swear these dogs have a sense of humaour too, when I laugh, Jarrah with her big wide open mouth looks for all the world as if she were laughing too. But you only get out what you put in, you need to work with the dog to bring the best in them out.

Wow, I just found a google cache of my first thread here, unfortunately I could only find the one page, which isn't the first page. From memory the first page is me saying something along the lines of "She's crazy insane hyperactive, I need help to make her a good dog." or words to that effect. XD http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FOjjMj7WFQ4J:www.dolforums.com.au/topic/125390-help-socialising-my-new-amstaff-pup-central-coast-area/page__st__45+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au That was the very day I discovered that I really needed some specialist help and education to learn to manage my dog effectively, especially around other dogs. The obedience class I spoke of on that page, was unfortunately not suitable for us since at the time Jarrah was just so beyond my control. Now she's fantastic around other dogs, but I had to see a behaviourist to learn how to make that so. I wouldn't let her play with an other dog ever now, it would undermine the calm polite greeting behaviour I have conditioned in, and Steve K9pro, who educated me on this issue said at the time - NEVER Off leash with other dogs, never excited, enforce calm, so that's the ultimate clincher for me on that subject. I am a walking, talking poster child for the need for education about dog behaviour - for both new dog owners, and the general populace. Given the amount of dogs in society, it seems to be a basic neccessity we are missing.

It's certainly very interesting food for thought for me that you say that about Greys, as I respect your opinion as a Greyhound person. Haha initially I set my sights on various breeds, including a Pug and a Weimeraner (friends have had awesome dogs of these breeds), but these dogs are (mercifully for their breeders and fanciers) very rarely found in pounds. The choice in the pound when I went was 2 Rotties (I have had friends with awesome Rottis, so these were a real contender for me), but both were male and I wanted a female, also they were both HUGE, I mean gigantic. There was 2 huskies in there as well, they're beautiful, but all the hair and grooming is a bit much for me. There were 2 bully breeds, Jarrah and another little brindle girl. I met Jarrah first (she was the only one I met), she was completely insanely hyper, and I fell in love. When I came back home, my husband asked "what's the dog like?" I told him "she's totally nuts and hyper and I love her" XD I actually think that's all here on DOL, because I first signed up here when I was waiting for the pound to desex her for me. In retrospect I would have been far better to go through a rescue, still would have ended up with a Bully cross probably though, since they are pretty much the most commonly homeless dogs (or so it seems to me), but I didn't know about the advantages of going through rescue then.

Hey Stan's mum, Jarrah is great. :D I am trying to turn her into an obedience dog, I don't know if it will work but it's fun trying. XD Interesting to read! Thanks, I hadn't known about the green collar, so never looked for it before.

Last few days I have been concentrating on focus (I am starting at the very beginning here XD) which is mostly using toys rather than food, so more for established behaviours. But also, to keep things interesting for us we do mix it with teaching behaviours for food, today i will work on a pocket/cup hand. I am not sure if "pocket hand" is common terminology, so this you tube clip explains. Harder with a shorter dog!

Try this one, i just ordered one from these guys, it hasn't arrived yet, it's local (Sydney NSW). One of the makers is a member here on DOL, I spent a long time talking to her husband about the quality of leather and components used when I ordered, and am very convinced they are of the highest quality. Very expensive, but in this case you get what you pay for. http://ruthlessleather.com/

I find the muzzling of greyhounds an incredibly bad law. If you feel your own particular greyhound needs it, then fine muzzle away. But this should be an individual owners' choice, based on the behaviour of the individual dog, to have it as a blanket law seems manifestly unfair and unjustified. What's your view on this Stan's Mum? I am always pretty happy when I see greys walked without muzzles, I am not sure if their owners are doing this illegally or perhaps there is some legislative muck they waded through to remove the restriction from their particular dogs?

A trick challenge, haha I am way behind you there proficiency wise, I still think getting an "out" on a tug toy is a pretty good trick. XD But I think hind leg awareness tricks would be good since that's the thread title. I will try, my clicker skills are a bit abysmal so far though, very definitely still at an early learning stage here. I'm still working on getting Jarrah to be more operant in respect to offering behaviours for clicker shaping, I have used too much luring in conjunction with the clicker, and used it extensively to pin down heel position, so when i produce the clicker Jarrah thinks it's all about intently watching me, awaiting a cue or a lure. Oops. I need to go back to boxes, and chicken camp. FOr the leash juggling I just use a really long leash and tread on the end of it, or tie it. Which leaves juggling the clicker and the treats, so instead of dropping the leash, I spill treats, effectively teaching Jarrah to disconnect for a ground snuffle mid training session. Derp.

O BC crazy, check out Denise Fenzi's youtube channel, she's awesome. She will be in Wyee doing a seminar on Jul 13 & 14, there is a thread in this subforum with all the links and info. "D

Nah, Jarrah has no ped, she's a BYB I got at the pound. Pit Bull type not APBT, under threat from BSL despite not neccessarily being APBT. Classic APBT temperament, but individual temperament variances being what they are, she could just as easily be some crazy cross that ends up looking like an APBT - IDK, Staffy, Boxer, Lab or something? I say Pit Bull type because that seems most accurate to me. Dogs of a particular look can be seized and euthed by council for no better reason than their structure. So I woldn't say Amstaff with a cool name, so much as dogs of a particular outlawed structure. And yes, I do remember someone registering a cat with the ADBA some years ago, hung papers are legion, and can't always be trusted. Gameness is a moot point to me as an owner to be honest. Important for good breeders to define and identify though. I like this defintition: "Gameness is defined as the willingness to see a task through to its end, even under penalty of serious injury or death." Some want a calm dog, some want a spirited dog, I think Pits are, most assuredly in the latter category.

The chattering depends on what you're after I think. Same with rates of reinforcement, depends on what you are trying to acheive, the Leslie McDevitt school of one treat a second makes the dog really keen to focus on you, or the Denise Fenzi school of giving far less reinforcement makes that reinforcement you do give far more valuable. A lot of the things you guys are arguing - Nekhbet & Corvus- I think are not the polar opposites they appear, it's just different ways of training depending on what you want to acheive. I have read accounts by people I really respect (McDevitt & Fenzi in the case of rate of reinforcement) that support both sides of the argument. Chicken camp I would see as incredibly valuable, clicking can be a bit of tough mechanical skill to juggle and personally I have difficulty in raising criteria effectively, I think I go too slow on that. A chicken & a dog are not the same psychologically, but the trainer of dog and the trainer of a chicken ARE the same psychologically - a human. Stuff like mechanical skills, criteria, timing - all these are skills the human needs, irrespective of what species is being trained. I am going to look into chicken camp and try to juggle my commitments, I think it'd be very valuable for me, I like the clicker, it's been very effective for me, but my skill with it needs work, have to say voice IS so much easier for the novice. Oh and I love chicken camp's sub heading "Poultry in Motion" XD

When is this chicken camp you speak of? I am very interested. Do we get to eat them after? I started with a clicker recently, I find it fantastic for fixing a behaviour exactly as I want it, but I have been relying on luring too much and so haven't created a very operant dog yet with regards to spontaneously offering behaviours yet.

Although that said, as Mel and I were discussing in another thread, in Australia "Pit Bull type" covers an incredibly broad range of temperaments and structures, so it's most definitely not one size fits all, there's massive variation in ancestry for any given Pit Bull type in Australia. Blanket statements don't tend to cover it here, so the above is for the Jarrah types only. XD

I do think a really well bred APBT might be too much dog for the average owner. Lots of breeds are like this - most people are aware of the lengths they would have go to to manage a really well bred kelpie of working lines in suburbia - you basically need to be doing organised dog sports of some sort if you don't have access to sheep to keep the dog happy and balanced, or for those less inclined toward organised sports you will see people throwing balls and frisbees on beaches & in parks for hours, or walking, cycling or jogging with the dog for hours, it's a basic neccessity for the dog. People already accept and understand that about working line kelpies and collies, they need to accept that about Pit Bulls too.

One thing I am noticing now, which I am delighted with - Just recently, I have become quite interested in obedience training. After 5 years of basically conditioning my dog away from focusing on me (we were bushwalkers, she sniffs and generally delights in the environment while I ambled beside her woolgathering), I am finding I have a dog whose temperament seems tailor made for obedience. She has the drive and motivation, and a great attitude, although we are at puppy basic level on focus because I never worked on it before. But the improvement we've made on that even in the last week is just astounding, such versatile dogs. I used to be mesmerised by her physical and athletic ability (Jarrah is pretty incredible in terms of agility, sometimes seeming more like a cat than a dog in her climbing skills especially). Now I find myself mesmerised by just how quickly she is picking up on the focus homework we have been set by Denise Fenzi in an online course I am doing with her. I am afraid I am a bit of a slow learner, so I am holding her back here a bit, she has the talent, I need to learn more though. Simply amazing dogs. It was just a happy accident I walked into the pound and got Miss Jarrah, so glad I did! There is a real visual difference between APBTs & Amstaffs, whether they are a separate breed depends on which registry you prefer, AKC, UKC or ADBA. Here's a great visual comparison: http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=31155&page=1 Note the very, very handsome Hornet's Ch Kit Carson, who is just the spitting image of Jarrah. For myself I do prefer the look of ADBA registry dogs, specifically Kit Carson, wish I could find more pics of that dog.

Imagine if the owner of the dog who bit the lady that this thread is about, had had access to a class like Badrap's. That attack on the other dog would likely never have happened, and the lady would not have been bitten.

Yeah forget about walking the dog, these can barely walk at all, you'd have to get a pram to wheel 'em round in. One of the most attractive things about the APBT to me is their athleticism, they are the perfect structure. These travesties are a mockery of that. The most disturbing thing is that the more extreme examples are probably experiencing pain due to their faulty structure. Breeding a pup to live a life of pain is just dispicable. Melz - Badrap sounds great, I wish I had had access to a resource like that when I first got Jarrah, it would have been so helpful to me, she really was "way too much dog" for me when I first got her. I was lucky I had access to a great behaviourist, so I did get the knowledge I needed very early on in the piece, so I never had problems. But not everyone can do that, either due to location or finance. A group class like that is great, most especially for the dog reactivity, which is what I struggled with most. The thing with that is, in Jarrah's particular case (and they are all individually different), it was so easily fixed, it was just a case of teaching her polite, calm greeting behaviours, and reinforcing and conditioning those in heavily. You saw her at the seminar, she's great with other dogs now (that said she will never be allowed to be excited around other dogs, all love, no trust here). But teaching her calm polite greeting behaviour wasn't something I was born knowing, I needed education to know how to approach it.

IDk, prong collars maybe, or just spiky punk rock leather collars? I can't see the spikes you're looking at to know which. If prong it's a training tool - that's a question for the training section of the forum, or if fashion, a question for general discussion or OT. I can tell you that the structure of those dogs is horrific and if you get one you'll spending a lot of time and money at the vets. Structure is closely tied to healthy function, legs at the angle some of the Gotti line "American Bully" dogs are at are a health disaster. ADBA registration? I know of a case where a cat was registered as a APBT on the ADBA books, go figure.

Yes it's true especially in terms of the catch all phrase "Pit Bull type" - such a huge variety of temperaments and ancestries. But the thing I have been thinking lately, while breed specific legislation seems to me to make the problem worse (since now we only have BYBs producing the banned dogs, and temperaments are getting dodgier and dodgier in some cases). I tend to think Breed specific education might be helpful? Anyway read excerpts from this thread, tell me what you think: post 39 with the big pic (i am like the poster child for derpness in the pic) http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/249700-dogo-argentino/page__st__30 and the whole last page is funny, but the last 2 posts I mean. http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/249700-dogo-argentino/page__st__60 A public education program isn't too hard to get off the ground, it's definitely needed IMO, doesn't really require political will, although that would help ofc. Concept has legs or no? Interested in your thoughts.

It strikes me that pic is a really great illustration of the case for educating the general populace about dog behaviour. XD Returning to our regular scheduled programming: I present the case against dubious assymetrical clipping aesthetics amongst certain band breeds.

O serious? Damn, they changed it then. It used to be that way back in the day at Sydney Uni. Well scratch that comment then, if it's no longer relevant.

I have a notion you're a student? If you are, is there a veterinary faculty at your uni? Back in my day (a good while ago), uni students could access cheap, good quality veterinary care via their uni veterinary science faculty. Worth looking into, it may be same now? :)

Yeah Mel that is so true. We have very few real APBTs of known heritage in this country. We have a massive number of Pit Bull types, of widely varying ancestry, I always say "Pit Bull type" to cover that. How varied were the types of Bullies at the seminar - all so very different in structure and temperament. The only dog there who looked like a real APBT was the little fine boned seal girl, remember the one who was primarily concerned with wriggling round on the grass, she was gorgeous, little too - couldn't have been more than 22kgs. You're right there is a huge variety of temperaments, you can't lump them together - what is true for Jarrah is not neccessarily true for Coco. In my experience with Jarrah though - I don't trust my fence as adequate containment and I got professional advice on the dog/dog socialisation front, I really needed that and got great advice, so Jarrah's dog greeting skills are great now. If you are committed you'll go to whatever lengths are required, which may be more or less depending on the dog in question.

Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head there, the dogs who have great value to their owners are well managed, those that are of little value are likely to be inadequately socialised, trained, exercised and contained, and that can be very problematic indeed. I am really not sure what the solution is? Pit Bulls are a fad breed, meaning there's a hell of a lot them around, many of those are not bred carefully and that issue is compounded when they are inadequately cared for and managed by idiots. I don't think we will see an end to the current problems until the fad effect dies down. I am not sure how that can be acheived, but I do think that being illegal contributes to the problem of undesirable owners acquiring them. Just recently (in December) Melz, Ruthless and Glen Cooke (Herr Rottweiler on here I think) organised a Bull breeds seminar day, I wish the people who were scared of Bullies or don't like them could have been there. 20 waggling bully dogs all milling round happily together, on leash of course. With good owners they are good dogs, they do take a fair bit more dedication than other breeds though, I guess most larger breeds do - fences that will contain little dogs don't contain bigger dogs, there is a predisposition to dog aggression with Bullies, and I know for myself, as a noob owner, I had to see a professional behaviourist to learn how to manage dog-dog socialisation. That kind of thing - seeing a behaviourist to get the knowledge you need for socialisation, having enough common sense to not trust in an average 6' fence for containment (my dog has never escaped my yard - because she has never had the opportunity, she isn't allowed out without supervision), these things do set the breed apart from some other breeds, and they do need a careful, committed owner.

I am really glad that's on again! I am attending a Denise Fenzi seminar with Jarrah on July 13th, I have become interested in obedience lately (we got the perfect breed for obedience!) so sadly can't be at the rally, what a shame. Next one I will though!