snobbybobby

Thank You for supporting my contention I have the book that you suggest and find the same theory being put forward. I not only use positive reinforcement with my two dogs but, I use the same techniques with shelter dogs, in particular puppies! I find it amazing the response that is obtained when an action is REWARDED rather than PUNISHED. A dog that sits then is rewarded with a treat will sit and sit again until the treat is forthcoming! That, my friend, is positive reinforcement. Henrynchlo

Nat, PGM is not insulting, just has a small, closed mind and I feel for any animals who are caught up as the result of this discussion. Where would the world be today if everybody had that sort of outlook? We would still be wondering if we would fall off when we rowed too far! Henrynchlo (thinking "what's the use, the animals are the losers"!)

PGM, B.F. Skinner wrote about behaviour of organisms in 1938 and many people who have trained animals for a variety of purposes have used the science of Operant Conditioning since then. I suggest you get hold of a book called "How Dogs Learn" by Mary R. Burch, Ph.D. and Jon S. Bailey, Ph.D. published in 1999 by Howell Book House. BTW the method is used by people training sea mammals in places like Sea World. These animals can't have a check chain around their necks for obvious reasons. Does that answer your question? I'm not about to get into discussions with people who simply want to make a laughing stock of the method. Henrynchlo

Hi, POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT - Anything GOOD that is added that INCREASES behaviour. POSITIVE PUNISHMENT - Anything BAD that is added that DECREASES behaviour. These are scientific facts. Please don't put your own interpretation on them. Now, can you tell me where the confusion can be in the dog's mind? Henrynchlo

Hi, I may be mistaken but, staffordsrule (please correct me if I'm mistaken) was referring to *K9events* a webpage devoted to information for dog lovers and promoting training using positive reinforcement methods. The site can be found at www.K9events.com/ The page has a wealth of information on it and, in my opinion, a must for anybody who has a dog and loves it. K9events is an Aussie site which has nothing to do with K9force the dog trainer so often referred to on this list. You will also find on the site lists of trainers in areas around Australia. Henrynchlo.

Sounds, to me, like they have no idea of canine behaviour. When are so called dog trainers going to start looking at the species as separate from humans and not attributing human emotions to dogs? For example jealousy and dominance. When a trainer convinces me that she/he understands the canine mind then, and only then, will he/she gain my respect. In the meantime, I will steer clear of franchises and people who are only out to sell exorbitantly priced electronic equipment. Henrynchlo The magic is not in the wand but in the hand that guides it.

Hi, We live near the beach and the tide was way out tonight. My two were just going around, paddling, sniffing jelly fish etc., when along came a guy with a JRT who was "digging to China" between the guys feet. Bloke said he doesn't do it at home, just down at the beach. The dog was having a blast. Maybe your problem could be solved by giving the dog a sand pit or, if your lucky like us, you could take him/her to the beach when the tide's out. Henrynchlo (and dogs who are rinsed off and happily in bed).

When you say you are committed does it mean you have paid upfront to Dogtech? I tend to agree with what aatainc says and wouldn't bother with franchises if possible. Personally, I believe the dominance theory is over-done without very much real understanding of underlying dog behaviour. I would, if it were me, commit to Get Smart Dogs. They sound as if they will lead you to a great working relationship with your dog, help you to understand how dogs learn and enable you to learn about dog behaviour as well. Henrynchlo

Hi, From what I've heard Dogtech is yet another franchise and different franchisees have differing levels of ability. I certainly agree that a GOOD puppy class where puppies are not put in positions to be bullied by other more confidant puppies and a good obedience club where they can give attention to individuals having problems would be my first choice. Look up K9events on the web. It is an Aussie site and has links to affiliated clubs as well as private trainers using dog friendly methods in all the States. You should at least find someone near you that way. Good luck Henrynchlo.

Good for you! If they haven't got it in stock, ask them to track it down for you! It may seem expensive but, to my mind, it's worth it because - if you take other advice, you have a bigger problem! cheers Henrynchlo

Hello Alainnah, I'm down on the Mornington Peninsula which is quite a distance <g> from you! I was looking through my bookcase and found The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training by Pamela Dennison ISBN 0-02-864463-8 published by Alpha. You may have seen other books in this series - computers - software etc.. The book is great because it explains all sorts of problems including the one you have, and how to deal with them. I bought the book at Angus & Robertson in Melbourne. (Ask someone to give it to you for Christmas <gg>) Over the Christmas holidays, it will be a great way to start and then you will be ahead of the rest of them when you get to Keilor Ob. Club. Good luck Henrynchlo.

I would recommend Keilor Obedience Club for using gentle methods that work, otherwise try Jenny Pearce, the trainer you found on the Delta Website. I don't know about Preston, but Northcote has an obedience club. In my experience, a lot of Obedience Clubs teach you to walk on a lead but in LARGE numbers and beginners don't necessarily get the help they need, especially with equipment like gentle leaders, check chains (not recommended) or other equipment of the like. If you can, use a private trainer, at least in the beginning. Cheers Henrynchlo

Hi Alainnah! I would suggest you get someone with experience in using any of these "props" such as gentle leaders, haltis, etc.. Like any piece of equipment they can be misused. I know of one person who has used a prong collar on the dog for years and the dog still pulls through it, sooo! take care! You've got to look at why the dog pulls and get around the behaviour before you try to remedy it, by that I mean "hey! there's a big world out there - lemme at it!" It's called motivation and we've got to deliver a much better reason to be with us I suggest you contact the trainer you mentioned before who uses motivational methods or, if you're close enough or don't want to use a private trainer, go to Keilor Obedience Dog Club. They will be able to help you too!

Hi Alainnah, If they are on that website, the dog trainers have done a Cert. !V in Dog Training using motivational methods and have a good grounding in dog behaviour. I have heard good reports of Jenny Pearce. I'm sure she would give you some help to start off life with your new puppy! Good luck! Start out as you mean to continue! Henrynchlo.

Hello Alainnah, Whereabouts are you in Melbourne? I would suggest looking on the Delta Website for trainers in the Melbourne area at www.deltasocietyaustralia.com.au/ and look under Instructors by State. There are many ways to teach a dog not to pull - "quick fixes" which can be hard on the dog or the use of motivational methods which make the dog a happy participant. It's up to you! Cheers Henrynchlo.

Hi, Good on you! From what I've heard, Northern Suburbs has an excellent reputation. The head trainer gets scores of 198-200 using PURELY POSITIVE methods. I have contact with a dog on a daily basis in the park who wears a prong collar, I'm firmly convinced that, unless the behaviour is dealt with at the dog's level and not for the convenience of the handler, nothing will change whether it be a halti, prong collar or (shutmamouf!) an e-collar!. Until humans recognize dog behaviour from a canine, not primate, point of view - nothing will change! I'd love to be in a situation where dogs ruled the world. I wonder how we as humans would cope. The dog I meet daily has been wearing a prong collar as long as I've known her (4years). She pulls through the discomfort! JMHO Henrynchlo

Hi Delta Society Australia fosters the human/canine bond that is why they advertise QUALIFIED vet. behaviourists. The true dog behaviourist, imho, studies how dogs learn! They look at why the dog is behaving in "that way". We are two different species! If you look at Patricia McConnell's book "The other end of the Leash" published by Random House - ISBN 1 86325 320 3, you will see what I mean! IMO, all the "rot" that people talk stems from the ignorance of the behaviour of a different species! Methods of training pale into insignificance when you understand that fact. I don't feel, for one minute, that punishment gets any gongs!, for humans or canines! Don't get me wrong but, I have found greater respect for our canine friends by studying the difference. Henrynchlo

Hi, If you go to the Delta Society Australia Website (google search will find it), there are Vet. Behaviourists listed by State. At least that way you can look at their qualifications and don't just call themselves a behaviourist. Good luck Henrynchlo

Reeda, To begin with, I was mainly concerned with the possibility of the speakers' points being distorted and misreported. The speaker concerned is a highly respected and experienced Animal Behaviourist. He/she has not been afforded the courtesy of a chance to reply because he/she is not on this forum. Misreporting happens all the time in the media as I'm sure you are aware - in that situation it can, and quite often does, put a whole new slant on things for vested interests (one of the reasons I go to the non-commercial TV & Radio stations for info.) Secondly, and more importantly, people put their own interpretation on this as has happened on this forum. The discussion has, in my opinion, done nothing to "clear up" the confusion - just gone back to "opinion without evidence"! JMHO

What about using his dinner food. That way you are treating the puppy and not overfeeding him. The tastier the treat, the more the puppy will be willing to work for it Cheers, Henrynchlo

Thank you Kelly for, at least, giving us some hard evidence to work from. An intelligent discussion is more than needed! Henrynchlo.

I've just read through all the replies to this topic. To be fair to the lecturer ( who, it seems, is a *qualified* canine behaviourist, in all probability quoting scientific research) why isn't a direct quote aired on this forum? How are we sure what is reported actually what was said? The right of reply seems to be sadly missing and ppl are airing their own agenda. JMHO Henrynchlo

Hi Bigbum, Can I query your statement. As far as I can interpret the use of the clicker, the click MARKS precisely the behaviour you want, ie, the rolling motion! In order to do a complete behaviour it is 'shaped' gradually using the clicker. For example, I taught my dog to play 'peek-a-boo'. I shaped her, gradually, going around with a target stick, then, the moment she put her head between my ankles, I clicked. I got a "photograph" to plant in the dog's mind of what I wanted. Sure, the click does 'end' the behaviour but, if you click AFTER the rollover, you are 'marking' the dog lying on his/her side. A lot of people, IMHO, misuse the clicker and then wonder why it doesn't work! ;) Hope this helps. Henrynchlo.