Crisovar

This vet has been very brave putting this in the public arena. It won't help, of course. Won't help what Sheridan? Won't help the health of purebred dogs? Too damn right it won't.

We have dogs that have Eye clearances from specialist Ophthalmologists both before Crufts and after. These same dogs were DQ'd at Crufts, as everyone has agreed this was for the health of the dogs, not the standards. What does this say about Health Clearances, given we all bang on about ensuring you go to a Breeder that does this and that it is the way forward, the Breeders of these dogs certainly do and yet they despite having these clearances were DQ'd. The Bulldog passed muster under the Crufts guidelines prior to the show then they DQ'd it,then it again was assessed and was cleared after the show. Does it make much sense? eta The KC will happily register litters from non Health Cleared parents. The KC will accept registration for pups whose parents have failed health clearance. Yet the KC think they can fix the health of purebred dogs by stopping dogs competing for for BIG. Sorry, but it makes no sense.

How do you explain the multitude of clear certificates from specialist ophthalmologists?

I actually think most dogs have the instincts some just need shaping a little, ours have all readily done what was required, but dual purpose has always been to the top of our requirements. I think it is sad that so many are happy to go along with the pretty show pony cannot work theory, but then dogs doing what they were bred for has been a fact of life all my life, and it has always been taken for granted. Last year when one of our oldies had come to the time that we all dread, we went for our usual late afternoon stroll knowing it was to be his last. He was rising 15 and quite a grey old man, and his eye sight was going, but he got wind of some quail and how I wish I had my camera to record that last shaky point, and a gun to let him bring back that last bird. He was a Gr Ch in the ring and his collection of BIS sashes are near my desk, but those few moments are the most dear to me. I had his favourite ball in my pocket intending for him to have one last play but he found something better to do instead.

Not a show Lab, but a failed guide dog trainee Lab. This fellow couldn't swim, in his new home, so his owner gave him swimming lessons. I have never met a Lab that couldn't swim, and swim very well maybe it is just as well this boy is out of the gene pool. It doesn't look as if he is lacking leg or suffering from barrel disease :) Out of curiosity do you know why he failed his GD training?

It is all in the execution. For what it is worth the Interview with the Clumber Spaniel...that woman showed far more grace and dignity than the KC deserved. Your complaint is that we're saying it wrong? Seriously? If you want to think that Sheridan I cannot stop you. You think this has all been handled well then fine that is your opinion, many don't share it. As an aside though read all the threads Sheridan....read all the generalisations..read all the insulting comments...and then tell me that all everyone is doing is just nicely pointing out that some breeders have issues that they need to deal with. Since apparently it is ok to add one of these in :laugh: just to sweeten the blow you can have one of them too.

It is all in the execution. For what it is worth the Interview with the Clumber Spaniel...that woman showed far more grace and dignity than the KC deserved.

As far as I am concerned and that of my circle it is "don't lump us all in together" Work with us. How does the sort of grandstanding that the Crufts joke was solve issues like PLN, MVD, HD, PKD? it doesn't. It tells us that no matter how much testing you have done and how hard you have worked to produced Healthy animals the KC will smack you down for Haw. Some will say it is a start, but no it isn't the Breeders had already started some always have. But everyone is happy to stand up and say well done to the KC for slapping a few big names out of Crufts. How did you expect Breeders to react to Crufts?

One was shown and one a pet but from parents who were shown. There really should be no difference in health between the show and pet pups from one litter or from one breeder. The difference between a show quality dog and a pet quality one should be in the finer points of conformation not in health. Has anyone claimed this is what happens?

I think Jumabaar and Espinay have nailed it. When selecting for a particular trait it pays to be very aware of what else is coming along for the ride. When gold was the must have colour for a cocker those that bred only for that colour did the breed a great disservice, same as the chocolate Lab. It is not the colour that is the problem it is those that bred only to produce that colour, paying no heed to what else they were selecting for that cause problems.

It's a little disturbing that people concerned about the health and function of pedigree dogs are being labelled animal rights nutters. It is extremely disturbing and certainly gives the general public more cause for alarm. If the breeders of dogs, especially dogs that have extremes in their conformation, hide their heads in the sand then members of the public may think the fox is in charge of the hen house and ask for even more restrictions on breeder activities. It is shameful that people cannot see that the health and welfare of the dogs must be paramount and that dogs need to be able to function. If a bred cannot mate naturally nor give birth naturally without human intervention then without us the breed would die out. Most people think that is wrong and must be fixed. Most people want dogs to be able to be dogs and to do dog things like run and play and mate and give birth without human intervention. It is bloody shameful that SOME people don't get it right, but it is not complete Breeds and it is not every Breeder, so while everyone is happy to see calls for entire Breeds to be rehashed because we have some fools amongst us forgive those of us that think that is shameful. Why do some of us get a little angry? Because we have threads across this forum and others that use sweeping insulting statements that toss the entire breed in as one. No one wants to hear about those that are good Breeders it is all :laugh: but it is only a few. Well how about some of you stand up and support the good Breeders instead. This is like watching a snake swallow its tail.

This does need to be repeated :)

Just because they can Cockers

Of course they can Pugs

I must admit there was a great deal of mirth in our household reading a post in one of these many threads that was talking about the inability of show Labs to swim. Not only can they swim in deep water but they can carry a large bird while they are doing it, and deliver the bird to hand and rinse and repeat, then after a quick hose off if needed do a few laps of the showring and/or compete in an Obedience trial that night. The human may need a longer nap but the dogs cope admirably. eta One of the biggest problems with Labs is actually getting them out of the dam to get them to a show.

Good Grief that can't be true Espinay a peke that has legs, can run and jump and carry a dumb bell :laugh:

Having the pleasure of living with dual purpose dogs all my life I have to say there is no need for them to be worlds apart. It may be marked in some Breeds but most certainly not all. To me having a dog that can prove its versatility by being a very successful show dog that also works equally as well is just the way they should be. Many people simply cannot be bothered to do both.

What I don't like about this idea is that (A) you've structured a lure to represent a prey animal in movement, looks (to a degree) and texture (ie fur) and (B) you've made that lure something that is remote from the owner/trainer - not something that is in the control of the owner/trainer where the dog's respect for owner has anything to do with gaining the lure. If this is to be an idea for all people who own and/or breed that specific dog 'style', some specialised training needs to be added (IMO) to ensure that this training does not create a dog who thinks anything that is furry and runs like prey is prey to be had. ETA: Reference to "you've" doesn't mean "you" personally, Kavik. I mean it to mean "in the context in which this has been written". My hounds have always hunted, they can distinguish between prey animals and household pets. Part of owning Sighthounds for instance has always been managing this as far as I am concerned. I think I get where you are coming from Erny, but I guess I don't see the need.

We have a police dog in our town and all the other coppers are scared of it!! What happens to these dogs when they retire? Most retire home with their handlers :)

Actually I think "function" has little to do with it. The judges (trained by successful bulldog breeders/exhibitors) put up the dog that best fit the standard (set by breeders/exhibitors). Its a cycle.. your dogs go up... you get to train and evaluate the next generation of judges... who put those dogs up... If that is how it is now then that is really sad, I found that many trainee judges were more than willing to learn in depth about the Breeds they were hoping to adjudicate. In fact many were happy to sit at the feet of old timers (who didn't even set foot in the show ring with their dogs) to learn more. Many a long night spent discussing and dissecting. Weekends watching dogs work, watching litters of pups getting their hands on dogs they would never get a chance to judge but would bring to life the breed standard they were trying hard to understand.

Don't forget we are also being restricted by legislation, that is having an effect on the types of activities we can do with our dogs.

Unquestionably... but I still find it highly stylised, mostly a breach of the rules (contact between dog and handler occurs frequently) and not in the interests of the dog, chiropracticly speaking. A dog has peripheral vision way better than ours.. why it has to have its head around your leg and to be looking into your eyes to be considered to be "paying attention" beats the hell out of me. But it's here to stay and obedience will go the way of agility with it being less about something everyone can try with a dog and more and more about 'dogs for the job'. That's if it ain't already. Herding breeds now dominate and the original breeds whose obedience it tested are fading into the background. When I started out in obedience with Zoe 12 years ago, the majority of dogs at the highest level in my club were Golden Retrievers. Watching Crufts agility, DWD and flyball I would say BCs made up the majority of dogs. That they have an ABC (anything but collie) class in agility tells you something! Dressage has moved the same way with horses, now it is "if you want to compete you must have a Warmblood" and for those that want something smaller we now have the purpose bred dressage Pony. It appears to be more about how the movement looks rather than how you get it executed,if that makes sense.

Whilst I agree that it is a good idea to have some testing for breed function it is never going to be able to replace the purpose that dogs were bred for fully, and compromises will be made and as has already been mentioned all these things can alter the dogs to some extent. Whippets for example (just now being discussed at my house) you can test their speed and agility and fitness, but that is no way to test the dogs ability to catch and snap its prey. They need strength of under jaw (sadly lacking in some today)and how do we test for that. My rambling point being we risk losing the headpiece that the functional animal needs. I spoke to a Whippet breeder once who had no idea why they need that strong under jaw. As we move further and further away from the time that dogs could be used for their intended purpose we are losing the background knowledge and the dogs are changing.

May I ask which of the dogs vetted out had its eyes sagging around its chin?

Yes :laugh: At hand but not under your feet, laying quietly till needed, it is a far cry from the obedience tests we see now. It seems that people look for such intensity it looks almost frantic at times, not what is wanted out of a hunters companion.