Souff

Christina, it is a tragic society and it is not improving. People are busy, shorter fused, and more self oriented.

More and more people in the same geographical area will bring more and more of these problems.

Tolerance of barking dogs is pretty much a thing of the past in many urban areas.

Years ago, I did not like the idea of de-barking but now I see it as pretty much as the answer and it has definitely saved the life of quite a few dogs. If you're not prepared to keep your dog in at night and you live in a high density neighbourhood, you shouldn't get a dog.

Souff

I don't think people have gotten more, or less tolerant of barking. They have been packed tighter and tighter, they work longer hours, and they increasingly substitute buying stuff for their dog for caring for it. I love dogs, but that love tends to disappear to when they interfere with my sleep.

"If you're not prepared to keep your dog in at night and you live in a high density neighbourhood, you shouldn't get a dog."

Souff did not write those words .... but I do agree with the statement.

What a tragic society we have become. No tolerance for anything really & hurting & killing peoples pets is despicable. What one person may considers a nuisance & keeps them awake may not bother another & that includes children playing, music & neighbours visitors.

There never used to be all this hassle about dogs years ago. People didn't complain as much & call authorities to sort everything out either. Heartbreaking thing to happen to Lily

Christina, it is a tragic society and it is not improving. People are busy, shorter fused, and more self oriented.

More and more people in the same geographical area will bring more and more of these problems.

Tolerance of barking dogs is pretty much a thing of the past in many urban areas.

Years ago, I did not like the idea of de-barking but now I see it as pretty much as the answer and it has definitely saved the life of quite a few dogs.

Souff

Why can't a debarked dog be out in public? In case someone can't hear it coming?

It is just the Victorian Government at it's possible best, Moosepup

One can only wonder what they sniff in the ivory tower when they write, and approve, such legislation.

You are also not allowed to take a de-barked dog into the show ring I understand ... judges don't test a dog's bark but nonetheless the good lawmakers of Victoria decided that this was how it must be.

Whenever I think of it I have a mental picture of a judge trying to get a dog to bark, to make sure it is not one of those (socially acceptable) quieter de-barked dogs. Cant have them in here, oh no! Cracks me up every time

Defies all logic but is good for a laugh .... provided you don't live in Victoria under such laws.

Souff

That was predicted and I am sure it will end up just that way.

I would like to know what the "dog whisperer" recommended for $500 which was apparently a failure.

+1 - and how many hours did the owner put in for training besides the cash?

The owners of yappy dogs are usually not at home when the yapping is happening. Training can be of some benefit, but is not a replacement for owners being there with the dog and this is not always possible

Souff

In NSW its illegal unless you have a council nuisance order and a stat declaration signed by a JP

Correct.

And do you have to do that to get your dog de-sexed, or to have any other parts operated on?

No, it is simply not necessary.

If you know that your dog is a nuisance to the neighbours, you should be able to simply make an appointment at the vets and get the problem fixed surgically and legally.

If you wont do this and keep the peace in the neighbourhood, THEN councils should step in and issue the order so you are then forced to have the op done legally by a veterinarian and let your neighbours get some respite from yapping dogs.

This dog might be alive today if the law allowed owners to make the choice without involving council first.

Souff

If more people kept their dogs inside, it would not be such a huge problem. If you put the dog inside and close all the doors and windows, it's less likely to find anything to bark at in the first place, and even if it does, the neighbours would barely hear it.

I think the owners and the dogs do like a little bit of fresh air. For years, we have seen bored little white fluffies and chis yapping from open windows and from balconies, with seemingly nobody at home to discipline and re-train the dogs.

Souff

Commercial doesnt mean profitable however, in order to apply for an ABN and register as a business and pay taxes you have to say you have the intention of making a profit.

OMG, did I say that? :laugh:

It could be assumed that you have that intention I spose ... wonder if this is why Souff's accountant has no hair left

Steve,

Anyone who breeds and sells a juvenile animal is a commercial breeder.

Souff

Not so, and you also have the option to disagree with what people tell you.

Commercial means profitable.

And herein is the dilemma.

We all know that puppies cannot be raised properly for some financial return.

However, the government will extract taxes from commercial breeders.

Px

I exercise my option to disagree ... frequently. :D

However I was told this by one who has enforcement powers so I preferred to exercise the right to remain silent.

The ATO doesn't give a damn how you made your money; their aim is to collect their share of your profits. But before one can declare a profit one must deduct one's costs.

Pups can be raised properly and some breeders can make a profit ... depending on their outgoings and the breed they have chosen and the desirability of that breed to people who can afford to pay big money.

Elitist stuff really, but there you go.

Souff

Steve,

Anyone who breeds and sells a juvenile animal is a commercial breeder.

I was told that by the head of a leading animal welfare org in this country.

So we are ALL commercial breeders unless we give the pups away!

Forget numbers.

Forget being commercial.

If somebody is over-breeding, or if their kennels stink, or if their dogs are not healthy and are denied veterinary care, then they deserve to be subjected to a visit from the law.

Sadly, to find this information, the good breeders will probably be subjected to a unheralded visit from the law, at any hour of the day or night, and this is the part that really stinks.

Souff

Oh dear.

And we have government rules that make de-barking a criminal offence.

Totally absurd.

Surgical modification of this dog's vocal chords, by an experienced veterinarian, could have prevented this tragedy. It is NOT a cruel procedure when done by a veterinarian and the dogs have excellent quality of life afterwards.

IT IS TIME for the government get rid of the ridiculous laws that surround de-barking.

Souff

I don't think any one at any time will ever agree on the wording. When a legislation is passed to help stop bad animal husbandry I think that is great, but playing the negative word association game of ' Puppy farming' is just that a word association, lets all use the words primary puppy producer instead and start a new chapter.

So would that let those off the hook who are not registered as primary producers ? How do you decide if someone's motivation is only for money ? Is there a magic number?

Souff has been in establishments that had large numbers of breeding and show dogs, and also plenty of staff to maintain high standards of hygiene and excellent interaction and training of beautiful pure bred dogs. A lot of money had been invested in the dogs, the premises, the staff and everything else for the dogs. Such establishments are rare and it is because of the $ required. The bitches were NOT overbred, were well exercised and socialised, and some of the dogs were rarely used for breeding but kept in the best of everything. Top notch places like this will still get called puppy farms but they will be able to meet the requirements of any government laws.

I have also been in places where people have too many dogs and do NOT care for the animals properly.

And I could reel of a list of domestic residences where just two dogs lived in appalling standards of care and facilities, but no laws were broken because the dogs had shelter, water and food!

There is no magic number.

I believe that the focus of any legislation has to be about the standard of care and the observance/enforcement of rules, whether those rules be set by a canine council or a government.

And anyone who wants to get into breeding dogs in numbers in a serious way would be well advised to make sure that they have plenty of the folding stuff to not only set up a proper facility that will meet the stringent requirements expected and be approved in the first place, but that they also have enough of the folding stuff to maintain high standards.

There is a huge cost to all of this.

People will still breach the rules, whatever they be, and people will still collect and hoard and see the dogs suffer.

Breeders and their organisations need to fight to have the right to be a smaller numbers breeder, who just want to breed a few good dogs at home without having to get a bank loan to build the concrete/steel/septic tank housing for the dogs in the backyard. But the canine crew here have told Souff that they will refuse to move in - even if I was forced to build it to suit any laws. :laugh:

We need good dogs in the future.

We need good breeders of those dogs.

But it is probably a sad fact of life that the good breeders will have to pay through the nose to breed dogs, and tick all the boxes.

Souff

So much of the animal world is greatly underestimated and the ignorance of most of our society is mind blowing. Perhaps articles like this on the net can bring a greater education and appreciation.

Thanks for that Sandgrubber.

Souff

At least they feed raw :rolleyes: they must care.

poor dogs. 'we breed for demand'.... grrrrrrr

Have some sheep to mow the grass - saves money on fuel and oh so green.

Sheep make excellent dog food - saves you a motza on that awful processed food that has to be transported from somewhere and leaves a great big carbon footprint.

All very ethical and green in Tassie. ;)

They hit the nail on the head in the article though ... they "breed for demand".

Sadly the demand is there and will probably not go away now.

Not unlike plastic bags really

Souff

Good on this guy for drawing attention to the subject, but no, he does not have the right to kill the cats..

He most likely does have that right.

I can't open the original link but in Vic and NSW it is lawful to kill a cat that enters inclosed lands and threatens any other animal. You only need a cage bird, chook pen or similar on your property to be justified in killing a intruding cat.

NSW legislation: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/caa1998174/s32.html

You are right. I was thinking that this bloke was in town, not on a farm, etc but if you have aviaries yes, an act like that could, and should, apply.

Souff

Brother Fox I don't know why you bother.

Most of this site is made up of do gooder dog rescuers who have no idea or show people who have lots to answer for in regards to dogs health today.

It is quite difficult and in most cases just pure time wasted to try to put your point across.

But the saddest part is they feed off each other with the self opinionated fanciful and on the most part ill informed ideals.

Because BYBs are known for producing sound, health-tested dogs, right? :rolleyes:

If you actually feel this site is a waste of time.. why exactly are you here? The only thing I can think of is to troll.

Also.. for someone so bothered by "do gooder dog rescuers", you sure do spend a lot of time in the rescue section ;)

I sure do saving worthy dogs.

Not trying to save every impounded dog at any cost.

God luv ya, Hotdogz, you didnt have to edit your original post. You just told it like I often see it :laugh: but I hasten to add that there are still one or two of us somewhere between those two descriptions, cringers and cowards though we might be, it is just far easier to leave the bleeding hearts and the blind showies to the crap and go and enjoy life and give our time to other pursuits ;)

Interesting thread. Has strayed quite a way from the fact that someone had two dogs that roamed and did damage, and one has now gone to its maker, and the other will probably join it there.

Interesting comment about breed registers in there too. Misguided, but interesting nonetheless.

Always good to drop in to DOL, and get a smile before one goes elsewhere.

Souff

Good on this guy for drawing attention to the subject, but no, he does not have the right to kill the cats.

Hope somebody is crossposting this stuff to cat owners sites.

There is no excuse for letting cats roam the neighbourhood and creating havoc, at the risk of their lives.

The dog is an animal with teeth, and most dogs will use those teeth if they feel the need to. Whether or not that need is deemed to be appropriate in today's society is quite another matter.

<br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247); ">

This should be a poster !!!!

OOOooh no, much too scary!

Not PC at all ... all those dog owners in denial would need therapy, and the pre-school teacher/gurus would banish it to the realms of the Big Bad Wolf, and of Noddy & Big Ears ;)

Souff

"But we have done an analysis on our pet insurance statistics and have found that owners of purebred dogs on average spend more time and money at the vet than owners of your average mixed breed," Mr Steele said.

The better response to this is "SHOW ME THE NUMBERS". They are worth knowing!

I've been looking all over the place for insurance statistics on vet costs by breed . . . to make a case that the much-maligned pug is actually fairly healthy.

The only thing I can come up with is PetPlan's 10 most expensive breed list, which is US based: http://www.mainstreet.com/slideshow/smart-spending/10-dogs-priciest-vet-bills (The ranking from most to least expensive of the top ten is: American Bulldog, Burnese Mountain Dog, Rotweiler, Samoyed, AmStaff, APBT, Frenchie, Basset, Akita, and Great Dane . . . the costs seem to be skewed by the high cost of a few procedures . . . eg, cancer treatment, bloat, removal of foreign objects from stomach/intestine, HD surgery, and cruciate ligament surgery . . . breeds that aren't prone to any of these are likely to have lower vet bills . . . mutts . . . depends on the mutt).

It would be very interesting to see the insurance companies stats on how many ops were obstructions caused by foreign objects and stuck bones, or from road accident injuries.

I suspect that accidents would feature highly in insurance claims.

Souff

Those of you who are critical, what is a suburban shelter to do with a cattle dog x rotti? People with the environment, skills and knowledge appropriate for such a cross are few in number, and they aren't likely to go to a shelter to get their pups.

The message I take away is too many people are dumping animals over Xmas. Shelters may think it's better to place with a degree of risk than to pts. Who knows, this placement may work out fine, despite the danger signs.

Y

es, it may work out, but it also may not.

Placements with risk can mean that a dog ends up on the revolving door of doggy welfare. And every failed placement creates more emotional damage to the dog.

Souff has had some of the damaged dogs that went down this track and they all started life as cute pups.

Some were turned around and are in their forever homes; some were sent to God.

Is the needle kinder? Sometimes it can be in the long run.

Sometimes the damage cannot be turned around successfully.

When lights are flashing red, Souff baulks, and when I see two large breed pups homed together with a family who have been used to a small breed dog, well,I see those red lights flashing.

Souff

Oh dear I think my main point may have been missed.

I am all for the correct placement of rescue dogs, it's just that I have found some shelters wanting to "off-load" 2 puppies, especially an active breed like that i wish they would get the people to read all the problems siblings can bring, and maybe think a week or so about taking 2, especially after having only 1 small breed.

I know the shelters foster people do an AWESOME job, but i worry that they should give the clients requesting 2 ("to save 2 lives") maybe consider different aged dogs.

You raise a very good point. Like you, I admire the work done by the shelters but .....

What happens at the end of the January holidays and the new pups are left alone when families go back to work and school?

Is this really very different to the impulse buyers who get a pup from a pet shop during the school holidays?

The pup that they buy from a pet shop might well be sent to a shelter in March because it is no longer cute and has eaten a few cushions and screen doors (after having been such a fun pup to have during the holidays?

I also think the practice of sending two pups together is very wrong, and I also think early January is a bad time to promote the re-homing of dogs from shelters.

jmho as usual.

Souff

OMG! Every step that poor boy took must have been excruitating:(. Run free Floyd. Karma will catch up with the scum that did this to you.

Thanks Sujo, you said what I wanted to say.

Sometimes I wish the same sort of pain could be exacted on those that do this to animals like Floyd.

Souff

Another dumb article.

However, if I had a dollar for every time a dog owner stated that their dog would not harm anyone, I would be very, very rich.

The dog is an animal with teeth, and most dogs will use those teeth if they feel the need to. Whether or not that need is deemed to be appropriate in today's society is quite another matter.

The point made about dog owners not being the best person to give an opinion of their dog's capabilities is valid.

Most responsible dog owners, who know and understand the history of their dog's breed, do a pretty good job of having a balanced view and do take the necessary steps to protect the dog from itself, but there are far too many other owners who swear their dog would never harm a fly. Those owners are usually not interested in educating themselves about the dog's instincts but still see it as their right to own a dog.

Souff

http://www.themercur...ar-stories.html

Why would you finish an article with those words?

Mmmmmm, because good old (mythical)"hybrid vigour" that keeps dogs away from vets might be a good selling point when it comes to selling crossbred mutts?

I agree with your comment re the owners who are more likely to insure their dogs.

Once you insure, you become part of the statistics that people quote from in articles like this.

Now what is that saying about statistics and lies again?

Souff

Kellyville Pets in NSW has been selling cats for the Animal Welfare League for ages.

The moggies are in a separate section to the other baby animals that are for sale.

I haven't seen anything in the news about it.

Souff