Souff

My aunty is a nurse at the childrens hospital. She has a habit of asking the parents what breed of dog their child was bitten by. She told me there is no trend. People are bitten by all breeds of dog. While some dogs look “scarier” than others, I think all dogs have the capacity to be vicious. Just as owners have the capacity to train and socialise (or not).

Yes, they all have teeth.

Speaking of teeth, Souff had the opportunity to inspect the teeth of a deceased young male tiger quoll (Dasyurus maculatus) recently. The two central incisors were extremely long and sharp - good thing there aren't too many humans near quolls because those teeth would easily go straight through a person's hand.

Souff

Oh well we'd better destroy them just in case :rolleyes:

They are already endangered and the one I saw was road kill.

Many of our breeds of dog have less numbers than some of our endangered native species.

Sadly our politicians and the anti-dog brigade don't see the similarity.

My aunty is a nurse at the childrens hospital. She has a habit of asking the parents what breed of dog their child was bitten by. She told me there is no trend. People are bitten by all breeds of dog. While some dogs look “scarier” than others, I think all dogs have the capacity to be vicious. Just as owners have the capacity to train and socialise (or not).

Yes, they all have teeth.

Speaking of teeth, Souff had the opportunity to inspect the teeth of a deceased young male tiger quoll (Dasyurus maculatus) recently. The two central incisors were extremely long and sharp - good thing there aren't too many humans near quolls because those teeth would easily go straight through a person's hand.

Souff

btw, most aggressive dogs are that way because of the people that own them, they are usually not born that way.

I had lengthy chat with a GSD breeder of 30 years experience about aggression in the breed which she maintains is in the dogs genetics, either they have an aggression tendency or they don't, and where it surfaces is when the owners of the potentially aggressive individuals haven't dealt with the problem adequately in training and management. She told us that she had aggression in her lines years ago that came in from one dog effecting a couple of generations mainly in males that were stranger aggressive and would instinctively bite people they didn't know, she said they were not safe dogs for anyone outside the family and she corrected the situation by breeding the trait out of her bloodlines?

Others can correct me if i am wrong but as far a GSDs are concerned (to my knowledge) the working bloodline (used in police and corrective services work ect) do have a higher prey and aggression drive then other bloodlines of shep. They have been bred for this specifically in order to do the work required of them and have experienced handlers who know how to deal with them training and taking care of them.

Which is why I did not use the phrase "all aggressive dogs" in my comment.

I could have said "some aggressive dogs" but I really think that most of the aggression we see today is the result of having the wrong owners who do not seem to understand that dog ownership is all about training and management of the dog.

Souff

I am most wary of SWF as a collective rather than a specific breed.

Without fail, if we encounter them on a walk, my dog gets rushed at complete with yappy barking and attempts to bite ankles.

Looking at the world through a SWF's eyes, from down low in the size scale of things, I am thinking that a large long-legged Dobe striding close towards your territory might be something to get all defensive about?

"Yikes, man the fort kids, we are about to be invaded by a huge non-SWF" !!!

What is that saying about vigilance being the price of something else ....

Just trying to see it from the SWF's perspective.

Souff

Yeah I'm like Rubystar except for me it's any dog wandering by themselves or left in an unsecure front yard with no owner in sight. I not really wary of any breed, its just any dog unattended that gets me all nervous.

Did you know that the unattended dog senses your fear?

Better to keep a positive attitude when you see an unattended dog. You don't need to go near the dog, but should it come to you, then please say "G'day!". Keep positive and the dog will pick up on that vibe and is less likely to get defensive.

Please don't get nervous just because a dog is unattended.

Souff

Which is all well and good if the dog doesn't have an aggressive nature to start with. I saw these 2 unattended dogs, tried very hard to control my fears as I know very well that dogs can pick up on it and act on it, but it does NOT excuse these dogs from attacking me (and for the record, I stood still, did not try to run, so they only bit me the once as I approached (on the opposite side of the road) and then just stood there snarling at me baring teeth - had I run, I would have been far worse off).

Since then I have been EXTREMELY nervous around unattended dogs (there are quite a few in my street) and none have tried attacking me because it wasn't in their nature - if anything, it just made them curious about me. Some people are just naturally afraid of dogs and they cannot help their feelings when approached by dogs they don't know, and that should never excuse a dog for its actions related to that persons fears.

Being bitten by dogs leaves its scars - mentally and physically - but one has to realise that it is usually the fault of the owner that the dogs were out and running loose, it is not usually the fault of the dogs that they are out. The pack behaviour is something that is straight out of nature and when there is more than 1 dog loose, they are a pack. As a pack, most dogs are very capable of rushing and attacking, the name of the breed does not matter.

It is natural for people to be afraid, but it can also be very dangerous and it can take a lot of mental energy to overcome that fear. Having an umbrella with you can help to overcome the fear. Be prepared to use it.

A dog's reaction to fear is straight out of nature - it is a very primeval instinct that has been around since dogs had to hunt for their food. To a dog back then fear = dinner.

If little bunny was afraid and gave out the fear pheromones, then the dog had an easy meal that night.

If a cornered cat arched up and had the claws out and started screeching "Oh no you don't!" then the dog is unlikely to have been eating cat that night.

A human armed with an umbrella can see the umbrella get bitten, instead of their legs or arms. It gives time for help to arrive, summoned by yelling loudly. Be like the cat, not like the bunny, and you wont be the dogs dinner.

Fortunately most dogs no longer have to hunt for their food, but the basic instincts of a dog are never far away.

As dog owners, we all need to understand this. I have had to think like a dog to get in control of fear and very importantly I have to respect what the dog is about, particularly if I am on its turf.

btw, most aggressive dogs are that way because of the people that own them, they are usually not born that way.

Like you I dislike aggressive dogs, but I dislike their owners far more.

In a perfect world there would be no aggressive dogs, but we do not live in a perfect world and we need to stay safe.

Souff

Yeah I'm like Rubystar except for me it's any dog wandering by themselves or left in an unsecure front yard with no owner in sight. I not really wary of any breed, its just any dog unattended that gets me all nervous.

Did you know that the unattended dog senses your fear?

Better to keep a positive attitude when you see an unattended dog. You don't need to go near the dog, but should it come to you, then please say "G'day!". Keep positive and the dog will pick up on that vibe and is less likely to get defensive.

Please don't get nervous just because a dog is unattended.

Souff

Cant imagine why ....

Hi, I have been reading about BSL in the other threads and kept thinking I would gladly run into

a Pit Bull or any mix thereof than an unnacompanied German Shepherd Dog or Siberian Husky

I think I have a bit of a fear of GSD's since my cousin was bitten by a nasty one back when I was 10.

It lived on a corner we had to walk past to go to school and it was out one time and bit my cousin.

Have been wary of them ever since. Not that I think they are all nasty or anything.

Also, saw a girl in emergency one time that had a nasty bite on her arm from her friends Sibe. Not nice.

Wary of them as well, though I think they are beautiful looking animals.

We also had a cranky, huge rotty live next door when I was a kid, but I am not afraid of them at all.

Probably since I have met so many over my lifetime and most are real sweeties.

So I was curious if anyone else has a bit of wariness regarding any particular breed (whether it be

from a childhood trauma or not) or if you have been bitten by any breed, are you wary of that breed?

Souff is wary of men with red hair, and snakes.

Horrible things, both of them.

Have nasty memories of both and will cross the street not to be anywhere near them.

Toads also are in Souff's bad books ... there is just no need to have those ugly things so cant we just nuke them all?

I spose there will always be things that I don't like and things that I do like.

I don't like those cars that look like they were made in the 1940s but had a revival here a few years ago - people paid big money for them I hear, but I think they are just plain ugly. Cant nuke them too I suppose?

Souff is not really wary of any dog breed.

Am more wary of some of the owners really, and very wary of people who give breeds a bad name.

Souff

Dear Mr/Mrs Deshonko,

I see that you now sell the carts with the Rockwheelers - that is a very good idea.

Can you tell me how much extra it would cost to put some BRAKES on the Rockwheeler?

We have quite a few hills here ... and there is this cat down the road ....

Thank you.

Souff

PS: one more question, what is your refund policy re the above?

The thing about small breeds, especially Mini Foxies for example, is that sometimes they do have fine bones and are not so sturdy in consideration of interacting with a child under five years old that might be a bit clumsy (as many are).

So I can understand the concerns of any dog breeder (of small breeds) in this situation.

If you could extend yourself to a larger breed of dog, really, a golden retriever breed might be worth considering. They tend to be very affable, and sturdy with regards to children.

That is not to say that a suitable variant of a Jack Russell Terrier would not be a good match, in fact I own two JRTs that are almost bomb proof with children, it's just that not all small dogs are.

Yes, we used to have a mini foxie X chi when we were kids....well, one day my little brother decided to see if she could fly off the trampoline, her leg snapped, thankfully my dad took her straight to the vet and had it fixed...needless to say, the dog was banned from going anywhere near the trampoline after that. I can only imagine that wouldn't have happened if we had a slightly bigger dog, that wasn't so easy to pick up...old Missy lived to the ripe old age of 15 too lol, hardy little thing she was

Ah yes, the failed fliers ....

One young pup was hurled off the swing by a hyperactive pre-schooler and unfortunately connected with the edge of the concrete path on the way down. It went to God a few days later when the spinal damage was diagnosed.

Tragedy takes just a few seconds to happen and we cannot have our eyes on the kids for every second.

We cannot predict, but we do have a responsibility to protect.

Souff

As others have said, sometimes people tell us what we don't want to hear.

Sometimes those people who don't seem to be listening to us might have had extensive experience working with hyperactive or autistic children and have a pretty good idea of what can go wrong ... and what can work.

Sometimes those people know that a young pup of a small breed is not a tireless toy and that it does not have the same amount of energy and adventurous ideas that a young hyperactive pre-schooler might have who has no idea at all of the long term damage he/she might be inflicting on a young puppy.

Like young children, small puppies need to be carefully nurtured in the imprint stage of their development and a calm environment will give good results for life.

However, if the imprint stage is damaging for the puppy, then the puppy is damaged for life.

Damaged pups end up as damaged dogs.

Society no longer wants damaged dogs and most are put to sleep.

She did listen and suggested some very good alternatives where there is probably a better chance of success for all concerned, including the puppy.

Some more excellent suggestions hve been made here by people who have a wealth of knowledge.

Listen to them carefully and don't be quick to think that they too were not listening.

We wont always be told what we want to hear and sometimes that is a good thing and can lead to a better path.

Sometimes people go back and thank the people who guided them to a better path ... but not always.

Souff

Sandgrubber, for a moment there I thought you were for real and that some kennel council had allowed such wording in a breed standard.

Please tell me that this is hypothetical.

Such wording has no place in a breed standard.

Humans, through action or inaction, can make any dog aggressive, HA, DA or any other kind of "A".

Breed standard or no.

Souff

Consider the breed standard is translated to English.

Translations can provide problems, particularly if taken out of context. It was my understanding that there was a joint meeting of the major dog breeding nations, probably about 10 years ago or so, to try to use standard phraseology across breed standards, in a bid to minimise possible problems with translation.

Souff can't read Japanese but gosh, if you want to own a dog of a breed that has a long history connected with dog fighting, would you not expect a certain amount of aggressive traits to be in that breed?

On the other hand, if you want to own a Labrador or a gun dog, you can expect to have a wet duck dropped at your feet now and then. You wouldn't want a duck aggressive dog, I suppose.

Think I will just go back to turtle watching ....

Souff

So what do Bull Terriers dig up?

Toilet paper rolls

and shmelly old bones

My friend is interested in getting a husky pup ($700, no papers) and has 3 kids under 3 and two older kids. Husband works long hours. Do they require much training? I'm just concerned and want my friend to be prepared as I love her dearly and want the best for her

Any help would be greatly appreciated

No.

Sandgrubber, for a moment there I thought you were for real and that some kennel council had allowed such wording in a breed standard.

Please tell me that this is hypothetical.

Such wording has no place in a breed standard.

Humans, through action or inaction, can make any dog aggressive, HA, DA or any other kind of "A".

Breed standard or no.

Souff

I write this after not having read many of the posts in this thread and it is not directed at any one individual or instance. It is written without bias and it is based on observations. Please do not be offended if it hits a bit close to home.

I have had the feeling for some time that we are going to see more and more of this 'I am failing the puppy' syndrome and I feel it is directly linked to two things:

1. owners having busy lives, with not enough time to relax and truly unwind (and no, 20 minutes in a herbal with oils and candles once a week is not enough);

2. a lot more advertising and hype about what owners should be buying and doing for your puppy. Pressure.

I think those of us (ahem) who can contrast puppy owners of 20 years ago to puppy owners of today have seen more of this syndrome developing. There was a lot less advertising and hype re pups stuff and training, and stay-at-home mums were often the owners of the new pups.

If puppy owners had the time to think like a pup and just spend hours in the sun with a good book (and not feel guilty) while the washing dried on the line, while the pup spent hours gnawing on a large juicy bone and having the occasional cuddle with you, yes, I know they even sit on the darned book, I believe we would have less of this syndrome.

We cannot turn back the clock, but I do think we can all learn to chill out a bit more and stop believing everything we read from the "experts". (Always remember the definition of expert)

Lower our expectations a bit and try to think like a dog.

New owners often learn a lot about the characteristics of a breed and we listen carefully at puppy school, and then our darned pup does it all differently, and even sometimes looks a bit different as he/she grows into huge ears and lanky legs. Many of the characteristics of a breed are not around until the dog is mature, but the books often dont tell you this.

Did the pup read the same internet articles or books?

Is the pup worried that he/sbe does things a bit differently?

Not one bit.

Is the pup stressed out by all of this?

No, but it will become stressed after the owner becomes stressed out.

It is us, the humans, that have the problem, 9 times out of 10.

And I believe it is all tied back to our high expectations, both of ourselves and of the little pup.

Souff has friends (believe it or not) who are not dog owners. This category of friends are all cat owners or bird owners and it suits their lifestyle and the way they think. They are all teachers and executives. They can be a cat's slave for as long as they like and Souff will never want them to own a puppy, even if they begged for it. Another acquaintance falls into the same category. This one has high expectations of everything and once owned a dog (for the children y'know) and it was the dog that barked constantly day and night whenever they were not at home. And this was the same person who would leave notes in letterboxes should anyone else's dog be guilty of barking, and now all in the neighbourhood know this and make other arrangements in case their dogs bark. Let's call her Sue ( because that is not her name). A funny thing happened a few weeks back; one of Sue's offspring came home with his young working dog pup and Sue enjoyed the interactinon with this pup in play. Then somebody at the property started up the whipper snipper and yes, the young dog went ballistic, barking and yelping. Whipper snipper got shut down real quick and we heard Sue say to hubby, "And you are the first to complain about barking dogs" and laughed! Both are high fliers with high expectations and all doggy people in that neighbourhood have been ticked off by Sue (not hubby) at some time over dog issues. Comes time to carry some of the blame for this barking dog and it gets dropped on to hubby! Highly educated executives sometimes lose sight of the obvious and the practical, and any dog person with half a brain would have removed a working dog pup from an area before starting up a whipper snipper. Fortunately for all, the young dog and owner were gone the next day.

Please do not take it personally, but there are some people who are brilliant in their careers ... and should never own a dog. They have high expectations and they cannot realistically relate to the way many dog breeds think.

That does not mean you need to be a non-achiever to be a good puppy owner. But you need to be able to relax and learn from the puppy and the experience. Be humble. Be practical.

Thinking of getting a puppy?

CHILL OUT, PUT ALL THE COMPARATIVE THINKING AWAY AND LEAVE YOUR MIND OPEN TO SURPRISES ... AND SAVE ALL YOUR NEWSPAPERS and SHREDDED PAPER!

Let the puppy be a puppy and just sit back and watch. And you will learn. And you will almost certainly enjoy the experience of having a puppy a lot more

Training?

You will get a better result with the dog long term if you are cool about things.

Bonding?

It will happen and you probably wont even notice.

If you can't chill out, or you can't unwind, then please don't buy a puppy.

The time is not right for you to have that puppy.

jmho, for what it's worth.

Souff

My friend and I have been debating about dogs and doggie things.

One thing she was saying to me is that she would NEVER have dogs around kids - no kind of dog at all...

Now with Max and Jenna, I wouldn't even hesitate, I know what they're like around kids. Of course I would NEVER leave them unattended... but I wouldn't have a problem with my kids being around dogs... I would actually WANT my kids to be around dogs so they can learn how to treat them and behave around them...

Also, she was saying that she would want a labrador because they have a much gentler and calmer temperament than other breeds... this got us into a debate with deed not breed stuff... She didn't actually say it but I felt like she was saying that other types of breeds (such a GSDs) would be more likely to turn...

I don't know how to feel about this... what do you guys think about what she was saying?

Nah, your friend has got it all back to front. KIDS should not be around dogs.

We need some KSL around here, kid specific legislation, to protect dogs from some of the little beasties.

Souff had a cat once that never liked a visiting child. Cat used to bolt up to the top of the hot water tank and hiss at this child. Kid grew up to be an unsavoury adult. Animals know.

Oh, and if your friend believes that all Labs are gentle souls, tell her to talk to some of the vets and vet nurses.

They have very mixed opinions about today's Labs. Poor Labs, seems that the old gentle giants that used to romp with the kids on the lawn became unfashionable some years back and they just had to be bred smaller. Give me the old gentle giants any day.

Souff

We are carnivores in the end.

Omnivores here.

cmkelpie, thanks for the update.

Souff will definitely not be dropping the private health insurance now that I know that.

No offence, but I, like others, thought that the first cut made into living flesh was on animals, not on us patients.

Souff

After 8yrs of studying to become a doctor I can assure you that nothing your could say would offend me. That you talk about yourself in the 3rd person is rather intriguing however. If junior doctors not carving up a pig every now and again is the only reason you are keeping your private health insurance then so be it. At least it will cut the waiting time for others requiring surgery.

Good, I am glad you don't take offence. Some might. Third person? Souff cant count - there could be a few others lurking too ;)

The annual bill for private health insurance is enough to make anyone ill, and means that to pay it we cant play the pokies or go to the races, or smoke, or drink (much), nor do dope and stuff, nor buy big screen plasma tvs or Wiis or x-boxes .... but somehow we survive. But gee, if we are helping keeping those waiting lists shorter that must be good.

Can't say we pay for it with that aspect uppermost in mind though.

Souff

again

Good animal people never become desensitised. We can toughen up, but if we get to a point where we are no longer affected by the death of an animal that has been in our care, then we should no longer be around animals.

Souff

Totally agree.

I would alter it a little to this though and say if we are no longer affected by the death of any animal, then we should no longer be around animals.

Anne,

I am sorry but there just has to be some exclusions. Like snakes.

Souff hates snakes and if a few more died there would be no tears shed here.

There were also a couple of very evil roosters in little Souff's childhood.

They made VERY good soup ;) and I probably helped to pluck 'em.

No tears shed for them.

Souff

Good animal people never become desensitised. We can toughen up, but if we get to a point where we are no longer affected by the death of an animal that has been in our care, then we should no longer be around animals.

Souff

cmkelpie, thanks for the update.

Souff will definitely not be dropping the private health insurance now that I know that.

No offence, but I, like others, thought that the first cut made into living flesh was on animals, not on us patients.

And Raz is right about the organ donors.

Funny old world of double standards sometimes eh?

Cant see Mr Wirth refusing an organ donation if he needed it.

Souff

Dean of Veterinary Science Prof Ken Hinchcliff confirmed the surgery practice, but said it was common.

"We use both dead and live animals in the instruction of veterinary students," he said.

"Use of live animals is a small but vital part of our surgery teaching program before clinical training.

"Dogs used in surgical teaching are anaesthetised before any surgical procedures are performed and are euthanised before awakening.

"All animals are treated with the utmost care and compassion. All procedures, sourcing, and housing of animals ultimately used for teaching is with the approval of the Animal Ethics Committee of the University of Melbourne."

Prof Hinchcliff refused to reveal where the dogs came from, saying only they were "donated".

And Dr Hinchcliff, I will bet pounds to peanuts that the university does not gain monetarily from the deceased dogs bodies. If I am wrong and Melbourne University does have a fertiliser contract as an income stream, I would be happy to hear.

I keep shaking my head at the gall of this person, who for years has presided over an organisation that has euthanased thousands of dogs, to stick his hand up in the media and criticise the use of unwanted dogs for veterinary research.

Perhaps the volumes for the fertiliser contract have been down a bit, and of course that would mean less in the bank.

Surely not, Souff, surely you cannot think that way. No no, you must not think that way!

And dammit Troy, Souff cant find the shakehead emoticon in this newfangled site of yours!

I totally agree with everything that you say, but after running a small boarding kennel I can tell you the 99.9% of the dogs I mind are so happy and drag the owners here on repeat stays. Some owners even get offended that the dogs are happy to hang out with me when they return.

Dogs are so awesome, and live in the now, quickly adapt to the new routine.....unlike us stressed out owners.

I agree, but like Sheridan said, there is sometimes a dog that does not cope well. In our case, our dog had dementia and a number of other age related issues and on the previous occasion of kenneling he went severely downhill. In earlier years he enjoyed the kennels and he was just fine on our return back then. Dogs with dementia and age related illness should be kept in their normal routine, or as close to it, when owners are away. Much kinder.

Souff

I think it is shameful that a number of these condemned animals spend the last moments of their lives in fear and or panic.

The resistance of a sick animal is not what I am talking about. If they show confusion at least they are there for the good reason of being healed not killed.

Perhaps you need to spend some time working for the RSPCA and see the dogs there PTS.

See how it really is before condemning the teaching institutions.

I can tell you who will be killing the greater numbers of dogs ..... and it won't be the unis.

Souff