Simply Grand

Glad it wasn't anything to worry about ktb!

Except BA that in this case if the OPs cream poodle has recessive liver and she breeds to a brown poodle she could end up with cream puppies with liver pigmentation (I think), which is outside the breed standard, so colour is an important consideration if she wants to breed to the standard. Obviously not as important as the health and temperament of the parents!!

Just been googling, I think it's a US thing to call the nose, eye rims, pads etc points. The ANKC standard calls them nose, eye rims, pads etc and doesn't seem to mention points.

Thanks for all the advice guys I don't think there have been any deal breaker factors raised yet... I own my house (well the bank does!) and the main reason I bought a house to live in (as opposed to an investment property, which would be better for me financially) was so that I could be sure about having the pets. The set up of the house is also quite good for dogs and I could manage keeping them separate when I'm not home. Saxon and Riley are very manageable and are ok either together or separately, at home or out and about. That means I could manage taking 1,2 or 3 places and/or leaving 1,2 or 3 at home, provided I train the puppy to be ok with it. If an Aussie pup took up a lot more time with training etc that should be manageable as Saxon's training is at the maintain or improve to trialling level if I want to move into that, so could be adjusted to fit around a puppy. Riley's basic manners and behavior are good so day to day it's short training sessions to to work on obedience stuff. Grooming wise, I'm now working with a mobile dog wash so have the trailer with hydrobath, dryer and other equipment, which I can use to wash/groom everybody. What else was there... Ah cute puppy manipulation! I think I can be fairly tough with that... I suppose Saxon could be called manipulative, he's good at figuring out what he needs to do to get a certain result but I have him behaving pretty much how I want him to at all times (some people may not agree with what I allow but things are definitely on my terms, based on what I enjoy with my dogs). Little Riley doesn't seem to be quite as bright although he is mostly eager to please. He can be stubborn, by plonking himself on his bum if he doesn't want to walk somewhere but various methods work to improve this depending on what it is I want him to do. I also really enjoy training and spending time with the dogs and love seeing the results as they learn things so I think I would find the effort well worth it. Finance wise, this won't be straight away, it won't happen until my finances are sorted so I can afford everything they all need. Can you tell I'm leaning towards going ahead with a third dog? ;)

Molly don't go! There is a lot of valuable, interesting and entertaining info on DOL, you just have to figure out what to take on and what to ignore, and make sure you read as much as you can so you don't inadvertently start a fire Re-reading your first post I can now see what you meant about black vs liver pigment on the nose and eyes. I'm no expert but I believe there should be options for finding a stud that you can be confident will maintain the black pigment. Talking to your girl's breeder, other Poodle breeders and continuing your research into breedin, colour genetics and lines should help you figure it out.

He's a gorgeous dog blonde!! (more so before this latest incident, but still lovely )

Seems like a strange business model to me to be aiming to produce a product that will satisfy your competitors but not your customers. I do understand professional pride and of course caring for the welfare of the dog but isn't it generally accepted that a happy customer will tell some people how happy they were, an unhappy customer will tell everyone how unhappy they were. Blonde and Donatella havent named the groomers on here for obvious reasons but I bet they've told plenty of people in real life. And I doubt many of those people have the benefit of explanations from grooming/showing/breed experts as to why what was done was done, they just know that the groomer didn't deliver what the customer wanted.

Hmmm now I'm thinking about logistics... I could divide both the house and the yard, with small dogs on one side and big dog on the other, with access in and outside on either side. It wouldn't leave much yard space for an Aussie in the yard, which is small so divided even smaller. I wouldn't want the Aussie to fret being separated on it's own though, do you think it could cope ok if I started it young? I'd be able to manage exercise/stimulation with popping home during the day for several short walks or training sessions for an active Aussie. I'm pretty sure Saxon and Riley sleep most of the time when I'm out, I've noticed that their water doesn't seem to drop much while I'm away but when they're up and about they swing past the bowl for a lap quite regularly. They're also always stretching and yawning when I get home

These are so funny! Crazy dogs I don't think mine have too many weird rituals... Riley spins around in an anti clockwise circle when he's excited, the more excited the more spins. And now I'm working on stopping his barking it's like he has to get the energy out somehow so his spins are more bouncy and he looks like he's trying so hard to keep the bark in! Saxon knows that if I'm not ready to get up and the dogs wake up and start annoying me they'll get kicked out of the bedroom so if I get up to kick Riley out Saxon lies perfectly still on the bed and opens one eye a slit to check what I'm doing, like he's going "I'm still asleep, let me stay!" (I usually let him stay )

I think the fact that both Saxon and Riley are pretty easy to manage makes me less daunted than I might be otherwise. They really haven't caused me any stress which means a) if the next is difficult I may be in for a shock but b) because they're easy id have the time/energy for another more difficult one. Having said that, both were slow with toilet training but that was me not them, Saxon coz I didn't know what I was doing and Riley coz I was slack. It didn't really upset me though, just meant I used a lot of paper towel for a while. Riley barks so another possibly barky working breed could be a problem. I let Riley get away with it too much when he was younger though, I know for next time to be on it from day 1.

Thanks for all the responses guys Wuffles meeting riot maaaay have encouraged me just a bit I haven't seen many Aussie pups around so when an adorable new one turned up at the dog park when I was already toying with the idea it did egg me on a bit I've given up on being particularly house proud even with these two, although they're not too bad with destroying things that can't really be put out of reach - clothes, sticks, anything plastic, power cords on the other hand. My house is reasonably well set up for containing dogs in various areas, which should help with destruction and also let me keep them separate when I'm out to avoid any squishing of small dogs. Well indigirl if you can manage that menagerie I should be able to cope! The cats are really easy to look after, they are 7 and somewhere between 14 & 18 (I acquired her 11 years ago and was told she was about 7 at the time, but if that's true she's a super cat as she'd now be 18 and is in excellent health!), they basically just need food, spots to lie around in and a brush now and then. Do you take all 6 Iggies out at once?? How do you keep an eye on them all? I try to keep a close eye on my two at the dog park, to make sure they're behaving and safe, and for poo patrol. Three would obviously be harder to keep track of, but I could rotate 2 at a time. Same with walks. And they'd all be in obedience and or possibly agility, and have separate short training at home.

Tlc it's your fault this is becoming am serious consideration, with all your encouragement ;) It is good to know you manage your four fine on your own. I've just started working as a rep for a mobile dog wash so am basically operating my own business and the hours are up to me so I'll be able to work times around doing stuff with the dogs and even bring them/one out with me sometimes so time wise I think I can manage it. Cost wise, I need to pay off a few things but once that's done another dog will fit in to the budget ok. I have enough people around (friends, family) who could look after the animals in an emergency and I'm sure Riley could stay with his breeders if need be, as could an Aussie hopefully... Anyone like to channel my mum and tell me why it's a bad idea?? (now she lives in the other side of the country she doesn't get to give me her opinion too often any more, hehe)

So I'm single and live on my own so am sole carer for my animals. I have two dogs, Saxon, a 2.5 year old toy poodle x and Riley, a nearly 8 month old Sheltie. I aslo gave two cats. I've found that having 2 dogs hasn't been a huge amount more work than one -I walk / take them to the park together, feed them together etc so the extra time is mainly in some grooming, training day to day and obedience classes, but I enjoy all of that so it doesn't bother me. Anyway I am seriously tempted to get a third dog. I'd really like to get an Aussie Shepherd and I think I could manage the three ok and would definitely commit to doing what I needed to do to make it work but I do want to know what I'd be getting into before I decide. It would obviously be a way off by the time I find a breeder, wait for a puppy etc (oh and get finances in order) so Riley would be a bit older, although he's quite mature for an 8 month old anyway so he wouldn't lead a pup too far astray! Alternatively I'd also consider an older pup who may be around his age anyway. So are there any single dog parents out there with three or more, and how do you find it? Thanks!

Ooooh Pound Puppies! I loved them. I had twin PPs who came in a set with a carrier, there was a brown one and a black and white one :D I also had a grey Pound Purry kitten. I think I remember the cartoon, there was an evil dog catcher who had a mean dog....

Maybe we should make a plan for an early Jan meetup (can't believe Xmas is so soon!).

Oooh oooh Saxon, Riley and I met Iskiea and gorgeous Riot at the Belco dog park the other day, could there be a more gorgeous puppy?? (No!) Can people do this weekend? 3/4 December? I know it's super short notice but just thought I'd check... and I know I have trouble turning up but this time will do my utmost to be there! After this weekend may have to be new year, but I'm in for that too! I suggest Belco lake and/or dog park, Forde, or Yarralumla if that's best for others, but happy anywhere else too

What a relief! Very good news

But that's what I thought the idea of conditioning was, whether through reinforcement or punishment. That the dog (or human or whatever creature) comes to associate the consequence with the action and therefore continues or discontinues the action based on the consequence. We toilet train dogs to take themselves outside through dog doors to toilet outside whether we are home or not using positive reinforcement, does punishment work differently? (again genuine question, I want to understand).

I don't get what you mean sorry

Genuine question K9pro - wouldn't the punishment (the sound of the shaker) serve to condition the dog out of the behaviour even when the owner isn't there? As in positive reinforcement for toileting in the correct area conditions that whether the owner is there or not? Or does it depend on the dog's motivation for barking (different when the owner is there or not there)?

Sorry you posted quicker than me leelaa! I'm having good results with the shaker! Yes it is definitely punishment. I trained Riley not to bark at me pretty quickly (I had him from 8.5 weeks and he barked from day 1) using negative reinforcement - ie you bark at me, your attention from me goes away, I freeze, look away and ignore you until you're quiet. I prefer to use either +ve or -ve reinforcement for training. However when Riley barks at other dogs he inevitably gets a reaction from the dog, which is what he is after so I can't see a way to train him out of it other than punishment. The shaker create a sound he doesn't like - he puts his ears back and freezes when I do it. The behaviour has rapidly decreased, I can see him now work to control his barks and he now tends to woo woo when he wants Saxon to do something rather than bark Oh just to add, the timing is hard! I only do the shake if I can do it within 1 second of the bark. If not i don't so anything other than ignore him as I want it to be clear what the punishment is for. I think the learning has been slower because I havent been able to be 100% consistent. Hope that all makes sense!

Leelaa, I don't want to offend you but are you sure you're being totally realistic about your dog's barking? Riley's is not actually that bad, he barks at things out of the ordinary in his environment (noises etc) and he barks at my other dog when he wants their games to go differently, it's not that much and mine are inside at night, and basically whenever I'm home, which is much of the time at the moment. However, Riley's barking is annoying to me and to my non-dog loving neighbours I imagine it's much much more annoying. Just saying, when your dog barks it's easy to unconsciously tune it out and not fully realise how much they are doing it and how annoying it must be for non-dog people.

Yes, if I was going to use an anti-bark collar, especially if I I wasn't going to be right there with the dog, I would want to use top quality, top effectiveness regardless of the cost. I'm currently training my 7 month old Sheltie not to bark excessively using a metal can (actually a cocktail shaker ) filled with nails, screws etc. Shaking it a couple of times whenever he barks inappropriately. Cost me $0 and is working well. Although next time I would start way earlier, lesson learnt! I do know others have much tougher situations than mine tho! Just giving my opinion.