Simply Grand

https://www.cesarsway.com/dog-behavior/food-aggressive/food-aggression-and-what-to-do-about-it Whilst much of what is said in that article is out of date and not supported by what science tells us about dog behaviour today (the whole pack leader, humans must eat first etc thing) the actual techniques listed are pretty sound, and advise the same type of approach as the posts in the thread :) apparently Cesar has updated his methods from his Dog Whisperer days, which is great as he didn't have great success with his approach back then.

Thanks everyone for the comments :) turns out I haven't gone back because 1) I can't find Quinn's vax cert and haven't gotten around to contacting her vet in Canberra to get a copy and 2) have been busy with stuff and now have foster dog Molly so time is limited. It's actually interesting working with Molly, who is an adult female 30kg mix who has some stubborn bull breed in her, compulsion (trying to physically move her) just doesn't work, she plants her butt and that's it but given that I need to move her around to keep her separate from my dogs (I have another thread that talks a bit more about her) I NEED to be able to get her to where I want her to be and rewarding what I want from her and giving her consistency and patience is working really well and she is responding beautifully to it. Plus it's growing her confidence and showing her that she has choice and control over her environment. There is still a LOT of management going on to set her up for success but she has come out of her shell so much, and is even recalling enthusiastically after only a week and a bit.

Yes, I definitely won't be taking any more females, except maybe young puppies. The thing with this girl was that she was supposedly young, very fearful of everything and pretty indifferent to other dogs (which she did show on first meeting with Quinn) but as she has become more comfortable her true, much more confident, nature is showing itself. I have always been aware that any dog coming into the house would need to be a careful match to fit in with Quinn if they were to actually live together, but we've had plenty of dog visitors before and she has either liked them or had a bit of a grumble and snap and then they've been ok to at least be around each other when I'm there. Everyone seems to be coping ok with the routine for the moment, the main difference for my dogs is less time with me in the evenings as I am spending a couple of hours walking/training/cuddling with Molly, so my dogs get me from 7:30pm-ish onwards instead of 5.15pm-ish, and Molly is settling quite well in her room for the night now when I put her in there then. There is still some conflict as we do the moving around and they have to pass each other's doors but I am figuring out how to move household items around so they can't actually get at the doors directly and "fight" at the bottom and they seem to be getting quicker to relax and not pay attention to the end of the house where the other dog/s is/are once they are out with me now (if that makes any sense). It is through a rescue group and I've explained the situation to the behaviour advice contact I have and flagged that Molly would possibly be better off in a foster home where she can have more company and maybe a dog she can play with, but I'm not sure whether they are going to have anyone suitable. She spent her first week out of the pound in a family home apparently where she struggled dealing with boisterous kids and with cats, which now I know her better I suspect was prey drive - the cats, not the kids, I'd say she was just overwhelmed by them as she does startle easily, and would have still been feeling traumatised when she went to them. I feel like she is moving forward quite quickly with me, despite the less then ideal circumstances, and that moving her again right now into another less than ideal situation risks setting her back a lot. She was about to be placed into kennels when I came across her and offered to take her. I'm thinking at this point that I will keep up with the routine and see whether they continue to cope and relax more with that or whether it becomes increasingly stressful. It has actually been helpful from the point of view of finding the right home for Molly as had she gone straight from the pound to a home she would have come across as much more easy going with other dogs than she actually is.

Quinn, my entire female Aussie Shepherd, has always been what I refer to as an assertive dog. She is the youngest of my three dogs but from about 5 months old she started deciding what the other two would and wouldn't be allowed to do, as far as eating near her, taking toys, pushing past her to sit nearest me etc etc etc. She doesn't barge around stopping them from doing anything and usually doesn't care what they do but if it comes down to a disagreement the others end up deferring to her. With other dogs she will intervene if either of my other two has a problem and she will tell off (as in warn with looks and lip lifts, then bark, then snap and stand over if they don't stop) other dogs for rude, inappropriate behaviour, and fight back if a dog is aggressive towards her. I've also seen her be very appeasing towards certain dogs, and when she was attacked but a dog that meant business she very quickly stopped trying to fight back, lay down and went still. I now have a foster staying, adult female, recently desexed. On initial meeting out in the yard they were fine together, polite sniff greetings then both just pottered around near each other. Once we came inside after some time in the yard Quinn did some pushing around and telling Molly off, I presume trying to tell Molly that she would also need to listen to Quinn in her home. Molly initially avoided confrontation, turning her head away, looking away and down, sideways body but within a day or two, as Molly became for comfortable she started reacting back when Quinn barked and snapped at her. They had a couple of tussles, with lots of noise and teeth snapping but no damage, and I was right there to grab them and hold them apart, with both girls stopping when I (loudly) told them too, but not relaxing. Since then they have been separated (they were only ever together when I was there supervising anyway but now totally separated), and both are going at each other when they are on either side of doors etc, with Molly now happy to instigate as well as respond. I also had Molly out around other dogs a couple of times over the weekend (on lead) and notice that she is very confrontational in how she initially interacts with them. Very upright, tail up, ears up etc. If the other dog is relaxed, she relaxes, if the other dog behaves in the same way she does the hackles go up and I suspect she would snap if left to it, although she is quite willing to move away with me. With a couple of dogs after initially being confrontational then moving away then coming back and getting more familiar with them she tried to put her head over their shoulders and one case started to mount. With one playful, goofy young male and one calm but confident older male she was relaxed and almost played when they did. I don't know her background, other than that before she landed in the pound she had lived in a car for six months when her owner lost their house, she was with the one owner since puppyhood, she is approx 2 years old, she has had puppies (you can see). I don't know if she has had much socialisation with dogs before or whether this is all new to her, but her confidence is coming along in leaps and bounds in the short time I've had her so I think that as she gets more comfortable she won't feel the need to be so defensive up front and will relax more with other dogs in general. I don't think either dog has problem behaviours individually, my impression is just that they are both strong willed and therefore incompatible together. My plan is to continue with the dogs separated as I don't think Quinn and Molly are going to get over their dislike of each other any time soon, unless one decides to give in and let the other be the boss, and I'm not going to keep risking fights to see if that happens. Unfortunately there is some stress involved for all the dogs as although they are separated (Molly on her own, the others together), they obviously know the other is there and they do yell at each other from their separate areas. I am also thinking I will be saying Molly cannot go to a home with another female, if there is another dog it needs to be either a calm older male or a young, easy going male who will let Molly be the boss. In the meantime, does anyone think there is some way of getting Quinn and Molly to at least accept each other without fighting? Any magic solutions? Or is this just one of those cases were two bitches cannot get along? Or, do you think I'm off base with my assessment and need to consider other things?

Which is fine if you're there 100 per cent of the time. Most people aren't. I might be just lucky, but I noticed that after calling her off from the fence in the past she does it now on her own (even if the neighbours don't interfere). She might take 5 seconds longer and have a few barks more, but then she retrieves from the fence, no further interventions required. We are more or less surrounded by dogs, and one neighbour (we share only the corner) has 3 of these little annoying barkers that are going on for hours, but she just ignores them. Yep, you're just lucky.

Cowanbree you know Shelties far better than I do but I would never hot wire or invisible fence with my Sheltie, I'd be concerned about it shutting him down completely. I just don't think he'd pick up the association quickly enough to offset the negative consequences. If it's at all possible I would build a tall timber fenced enclosure without gaps to see through and just keep them as separate as possible, mainly to avoid the neighbour's dogs being able to get to yours. I know much easier said/paid for than done

Oh how cute! You kill that avocado bit Secret! Poor tail, but I'm sure it won't bother her at all once it's healed :)

Interesting comment from you in another thread: I didn't say that they should rehome the dog (I really don't have the information or are otherwise in a position that would allow me to make a judgment about this), however, with so many issues which seem to be caused by lack of commitment for the required training I think it is worthwhile to contemplate about such an unpopular option. I have no doubt at all that the issues can be fixed via an appropriate training and skilled trainer, but I'm not sure whether the owners are ready to embark on this journey, which is now that the dog is already 14 month old a lot harder than it was when the dog was younger. Um, your dog had issues at 9 months old that you hadn't been able to get under control, I don't see how not having all the knowledge early on in a dog's life indicates that an owner isn't ready to embark on a training journey. I think you compare apples (13 - 15 kg dog at the time that got over-aroused when seeing other dogs) with pears (44 kg dog - leash pulling, over-aroused most of the time, humping both owners, biting, barks); the OP asked for 'any recommendations', hence my recommendations is also to think about 'unpopular options' - again, I don't say the dog should be rehomed. Do you not feel confident that the training methods you employed with your 13-15kg over aroused dog would be successful with a 44kg over aroused dog? If not then yes, I guess you would be comparing apples to pears. I'm very confident that they would have been successful, but I'm also very confident that it would have been much more work with a 44 kg over-aroused dog,...much more work...E.g., while it wasn't really pleasant my wife could still walk our dog, thus sharing the work, but she wouldn't have been able to walk a 44 kg dog that pulls like crazy and tries to hump her. Eta:...we getting a little bit of topic, sorry. All what I wanted, was to suggest to put all options on the table, also the unpleasant ones. You are saying that your wife couldn't have employed your training techniques on a bigger, stronger dog. That seems like a big limitation on your techniques when it comes to dog training in general. That's why so many of us use and advocate methods that don't rely on compulsion, but instead work on motivating the dog to choose to do what we want them to do.

I didn't say that they should rehome the dog (I really don't have the information or are otherwise in a position that would allow me to make a judgment about this), however, with so many issues which seem to be caused by lack of commitment for the required training I think it is worthwhile to contemplate about such an unpopular option. I have no doubt at all that the issues can be fixed via an appropriate training and skilled trainer, but I'm not sure whether the owners are ready to embark on this journey, which is now that the dog is already 14 month old a lot harder than it was when the dog was younger. Um, your dog had issues at 9 months old that you hadn't been able to get under control, I don't see how not having all the knowledge early on in a dog's life indicates that an owner isn't ready to embark on a training journey. I think you compare apples (13 - 15 kg dog at the time that got over-aroused when seeing other dogs) with pears (44 kg dog - leash pulling, over-aroused most of the time, humping both owners, biting, barks); the OP asked for 'any recommendations', hence my recommendations is also to think about 'unpopular options' - again, I don't say the dog should be rehomed. Do you not feel confident that the training methods you employed with your 13-15kg over aroused dog would be successful with a 44kg over aroused dog? If not then yes, I guess you would be comparing apples to pears.

I didn't say that they should rehome the dog (I really don't have the information or are otherwise in a position that would allow me to make a judgment about this), however, with so many issues which seem to be caused by lack of commitment for the required training I think it is worthwhile to contemplate about such an unpopular option. I have no doubt at all that the issues can be fixed via an appropriate training and skilled trainer, but I'm not sure whether the owners are ready to embark on this journey, which is now that the dog is already 14 month old a lot harder than it was when the dog was younger. Um, your dog had issues at 9 months old that you hadn't been able to get under control, I don't see how not having all the knowledge early on in a dog's life indicates that an owner isn't ready to embark on a training journey.

MzSim, in your position I'd definitely contact Underdog Training (Cosmolo). I think with the right guidance you will be able to get his behaviour under control :)

There's something Kelpie-ish about her in that pic, but I can definitely see Shepherd as well. Gorgeous girl :)

Yes, definitely. A proper classically conditioned recall is awesome! I did use a really high reward rate early on in training with all of mine, and find that a really good way to get recall training going. I still use a fairly high reward rate too, we go through lots of treats at the dog park, but I've been lazy with the timing and consistency needed for a proper classical conditioning. My three are all pretty biddable (toy and herding breeds, plus there was 5 month family member foster puppy bull breed) so it's been easier to be a bit less consistent with them than with more independent breeds, but I LOVE Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall with sight hounds.

I don't know that that is a training fail Mrs RB, you want her thinking that every time she recalls could be the time she's gonna get that treat. You want that "work harder next time, coz she may have just missed out this time" - pokies principle. The key is that random reinforcement schedule, once they know the behaviour - reward just enough to keep them motivated, throw in a jackpot now and then, and give a pat or a casual "good" acknowledgement for decent performance. ETA - now mine know the behaviour they often just get a "good" or a pat or a "thanks" for even a great recall, but then they'll get a jackpot chucked in for a good or great recall sometimes, so that whatever the circumstances, even high distraction, it's in their minds that this time could be the jackpot, and it might not come again for ages, so it's worth going to check.

I have to agree with that, and I'd also say as a training method for Willems it's been a complete fail. So either you don't find it aversive enough to change your behaviour or you have no idea what behaviour is supposed to change. Either way - it's not working. So it's not exactly a punishment either (in the scientific jargon), it's just unpleasant. Unless you have a masochistic or troll drive. I think argument for the sake of argument is highly rewarding for Willems. So when we try to punish by saying "you are wrong, here is why" he actually finds that to be an opportunity for reward because he can argue back. We all know it too, I suspect. We know that not responding would extinguish the behaviour, but we continue to engage for our own reasons. Excellent example of how animal (including human) learning and behaviour works :D ...as I tried to explain in my last post: it is a little bit different; I get 'zapped' by the 'force-free' promoting army to make me believe that force-free is the way to go - that's just not very convincing isn't it :D ? We posted at the same time, and you're exactly right (except I don't think the posters in the thread are the "force free brigade", no one has claimed that). The operant conditioning way of stopping the debate with you would be to just not comment. If no one responded to your posts you would get significantly less out of posting and would most likely get bored and stop. The fact that we continue indicates that we get something out of it ourselves. In my case, I enjoy a good debate about anything really, and even though you never agree with anyone else you are clearly not an idiot, and I don't think you're trolling, you just like a debate. Which actually supports everything Kavic, TSD, Mrs RB, Cosmolo, Corvus and I (apologies anyone I'm missing) plus science, have been saying.

I have to agree with that, and I'd also say as a training method for Willems it's been a complete fail. So either you don't find it aversive enough to change your behaviour or you have no idea what behaviour is supposed to change. Either way - it's not working. So it's not exactly a punishment either (in the scientific jargon), it's just unpleasant. Unless you have a masochistic or troll drive. I think argument for the sake of argument is highly rewarding for Willems. So when we try to punish by saying "you are wrong, here is why" he actually finds that to be an opportunity for reward because he can argue back. We all know it too, I suspect. We know that not responding would extinguish the behaviour, but we continue to engage for our own reasons. Excellent example of how animal (including human) learning and behaviour works :D

Are that many people talking about force free training? In Australia at least... I can't think of any DOLers who claim or push it? And are you 100% they are even referring to physical force and not force free in the sense of not making the dog do anything it doesn't voluntarily do?

No, if you start with reward reward reward for being where I want you to be, with no tension on the lead, and add a verbal cue, for either a baby puppy or an older dog you don't ever need to pull the lead to direct them. If the dog has a history of getting what they want by pulling you do need to do something to prevent that (stand still until they move to relieve lead pressure) but it is not a slow process. You started learning this stuff when you already had a pulling issue that you had to go back and address. That does not need to be the starting point.

I was really after something more concrete in response to my straightforward questions. (Note there was one about LLW also). I don't really know what "authentic enough" means in the context of dog training. I'm about to go to bed but I will come back another time and answer my own questions, so that you can maybe see how I'm asking you to articulate your training philosophy.

Ok, so what is it that those owners are not doing to convince their dogs that they can be trusted as the leader? ETA and what is the dog's motivation for doing the behaviours the owner doesn't want?

yes, but who is in charge of all this?...who protect them as good as possible?...who goes the last mile to comfort them if required? - its you, and they sense all the love you put in to train them and to manage their daily life, and that is why they trust you and are less stressed. You are their appetitive stimuli now, and that is why you can do with them what you do. It helps to use the tools (whatever tools you decide to use) the right way, but the tools without the right attitude, affection and leadership are worth not much. If dogs do what their owners want them to do because they trust their owner, and feel protected and comforted, then why do many much loved, cared for and protected dogs not do what their owners want them to do? Why do they still pull and not recall and not accept getting their nails cut and bolt out of gates etc etc ect even though that is what their owners want in order to keep them safe? Dogs (and all animals) repeat behaviours that are rewarding for them, by their own standards and perceptions. Simple as that. The key to avoiding conflict and frustration between owners and dogs is to teach/train/manipulate the dog into believing that what they want and what we want them to do are one and the same, by demonstrating that that is the most rewarding option for them.

Willem, do you think using pulling the lead (with whatever amount of force) to cue direction changes when loose lead walking is a BETTER way of training than avoiding leash pressure by verbally cueing a direction change? Assuming in both cases that the dog receives a reward when it follows the handler?

It's not just the physical amount of force that is in play when you use physical punishment, or corrections if you like. I've accidentally kneed Quinn in the head, clacked her jaw, stepped on her feet, poked her in the eye (I sound awful but between her clumsiness and mine it happens!), I tell her sorry, she doesn't bat an eyelid. The one time I intentionally hit her (I was already cranky and frustrated and she went to steal food off the bench) I smacked on the nose with much less force than I've accidentally hit her with, she immediately ran out of the kitchen and went and sat in a corner watching me, then steered clear of me for a good 5 - 10 mins, until I gave her some really happy attention to show I wasn't mad at her. She could absolutely tell the difference in my intention and the overall impact on her was much greater from the physical punishment, despite the lesser physical force.

For sure, the reward doesn't have to be food, it just has to be something the dog finds rewarding in order for reward based training to work. Training concepts are the same regardless of what the reward is.

...not required, and even better than luring - you just reward the wanted behaviour that's triggered by the cue and not the lure. Luring involves the risk that the treat becomes the visual trigger. Hang on, but you said in your response to Mrs RB that the test was in how a dog trained with positive reinforcement performed when the treat wasn't visible? if the treat being visible is a requirement for the dog to perform the behaviour then positive reinforcement training is not being done properly, same as if a handler has to repeatedly jerk a collar correction based training isn't being done correctly.