Black Bronson

Personally, I think a 10 week old is too small to play with a boisterious adult. I have a 12 week old GSD puppy, a 3 year old and an 8 year old. Our 8 year old is quite but plays hard with the 3 year old and the same thing, will try to play with the puppy in the same manner when excited. We only have them interact under supervision until the puppy is a bit bigger as it doesn't take much to hurt or scare a small puppy when playing with a large rough playing dog. Mine are purely in play mode, but the size difference at the moment is too great to be safe I think :p

My 12 week old puppy makes me feel a little confused when we go out for a wee, two wee's on the back lawn, come back inside and he immediately wee's on the carpet

Wishing Tyson a fast recovery..............these incidents are sickening

I'm talking about the average pet dog. And when you think about these dogs they have a reasonable degree of charge of the situation and a lot of training behind it so really it is not applicable in this discussion. Yes it does depend on more then where they walk but I have a belief that being out in front is not a desirable position - and when it comes to clients dogs with problems the proof is in the pudding. Put them to the side, and by this I do not mean a formal heel, and it helps then focus on their owners, listen and learn more effectively. Particularly when every out of control, narky turd dog I meet is always out in front of its owner as well it doesnt help my opinion. I used to walk 4 dogs at a time up the country roads, all on lead and they were 2 on each side. Cars, horses, roos, nothing meant me being dragged over and considering I had combined weight of about 140kg on the leads they could have easily done it. Let them get ahead, competition ensues. Keep them at my side (and that is not a formal heel, that is simply do not walk so your body if further forward then mine and stay near my side nicely) The only reason your dogs know where to go is from constant commanding until something works - so really they are not paying attention because they want to, it is because they have to. I mean when the dog consciously pays attention to your body language and follows you without having to be constantly told - and that cannot be done if they are ahead, then they have their own agenda unless you have specifically encouraged walking ahead (why I dont know I find it hideously annoying). If I change direction my dog is there, if I slow, they slow too, if a cat shoots out or a dog lunges at us we stay calm and ignore it. I dont have to talk to my dogs constantly, the only time they get spoken to is to be commanded into position if needs be or verbal praise for behaving. It makes recall easier since they are already choosing not being made to pay attention and being rewarded for it. I let them have a sniff here and there but if I let my Malinois put her face to the ground we would be tracking for kilometers. A dog doesnt have to have its face pressed to the ground in order to smell what is going on by the way, their noses are sensitive enough to pick up most of the scents walking nicely. Maybe I'm just speshal. I much prefer my way of walking, calm dog, easy walk, high level of predictability. I agree

I don't see any benefits especially if also training for competition, to have several walking positions???. I like to to have only one position and condition that one position which can never confuse the dog. We do a focused heel of course, but the position is the same. Mine actually won't walk on the right and if they end up there, they duck around behind me and assume their trained spot

You have to train a dog to walk properly on a leash and the training continues during walks. Allowing dogs to sniff and investigate what they like teaches the dog that being overcome by distractions is ok. Depends what you need from your dog I guess

I agree Aidan, and when trained to walk at heel and conditioned that way, that's how they walk naturally.

You have trained Daisy for what you need...............seen your vids she is very good , she's a trained dog essentially like mine are too and depends on what you train for with general walking really.

GSD's don't mind a sniff or two or three.............. and when they crack a good scent and bolt your shoulder socket gets a good work out along with leash burns on the fingers Walks like this are not very pleasant then "CAT" prey drive GSD dragging you down the path skinning your knees and elbows.............been there done that So control becomes part and parcel with these dogs for me anyway and give one an inch in training when young, they take the whole leash and you with it

I would tend to train any dog for the same result as my GSD's when walking I guess............ we don't do a competition heel for a relaxed walk, mine look around and enjoy the surroundings, but they stay in position along side. I think you do have more control with the dog along side, but if that's your regime, you will have best control where the dog is trained to be. If the dog is trained to walk ahead, that's probably ok for them too perhaps???. Mine are trained Nekhbet style, and they are magic on leash, a 5 year old child can walk them

Walking by your side is achieved in the leash training process and the dog learns to walk that way with handler focus. When training them to walk on leash, they get out in front and loose focus upon the handler is when they bolt towards a distraction. Walking in front is more a freestyle walk with too much temptation for the dog to focus upon things it shouldn't. Leash trained in this fashion, the dog walks with you at all times. If you stop, slow down, speed up, run, change direction, the dog does the same on or off leash. A 7 month old working dog, GSD, Malinios of high drive are extremely strong and a sudden bolt doesn't make for pleasant walks.........I have the scars from early mishaps

My dogs don't walk far in front of me, and they stop when I stop, look to me for direction, respond if I call them into heel position or ask them to 'look'. I have no desire to be so strict on my walks that they must walk precisely by my side the entire time, and owning a scent hound, putting her nose down for a sniff is a default instinct - who cares if she sniffs when she's a on walk, as long as she is not pulling and listens to me when I ask her to? My dogs aren't stupid, they are able to remain responsive whilst walking a little bit in front of me. Obviously Nekhbet has high drive powerful working dogs which are a different ball game Huski for the requirement of strictness. It doesn't take a lot of mis-focus to end up on your bum and the dog dragging you down the path if you get it wrong. Strong working dogs need strict obedience with a handler that has full control at all times. You can't afford to have these types of dogs doing their own thing........they must obey and behave

Why don't you try some training then re-assess the situation. Sound's like desexing is your first recommendation when faced with behavioural issues with an entire dog.........yes???

I understand exactly what you are saying which sounds fairly normal behaviour as a dog matures where submission grows into greater confidence and some behaviours appear for the worse. All I am saying is so often the first recommendation is to desex or being entire is blamed for the behaviour change. Maybe being entire contributes to the behaviour, but the behaviour is trainable. Some believe unless the dog is desexed the behaviour cannot be improved which I disagree. I don't know if a dog running away from a potential scrap is always the safest option, as weakness and flight to a dominant dog becomes prey and can sometimes make the situation worse. Confidence can avoid fights often where the attacking dog thinks twice when the other stands it ground and a fight doesn't eventuate. With entire males that normally get on well together, the only time I have seen serious aggression with dogs that are essentially friends have been in the presence of a bitch in season. I just feel that too may behavioural problems are blamed upon entirety which many of these issues IMHO are more training and management problems.

I am not sure the OP is looking for a champion...but just in case you think it is not generally done with a rescue: Some current results from the NSW Dog of the Year Cumulative Point Score after 8 rounds: Agility Dog of the Year 1st Rescue crossbreed 2nd crossbreed 3rd crossbreed 4th pure ANKC recognised breed 5th Rescue crossbreed Jumping Dog of the Year 1st Rescue crossbreed 2nd crossbreed 3rd pure but non ANKC recognised breed 4th crossbreed 5th Rescue crossbreed I have not sure whether the crosses listed above came from rescue or not, but do know that 1st & 5th in each comp definitely came via well known Sydney Rescues from the pound. What level of competition are we talking???. Do these results represent the best agility dogs in NSW against all the top level Border Collies, Kelpies etc???.

I don't see any examples of food being deliberately used as a lure (although she does become interested in the food in my hand at times), but I do see change in the dog's behaviour. At the beginning she doesn't have much clue about where she should be, at the end she has a very good idea. The response I was looking for was being increased through +R, i.e we got more of the response we were reinforcing. Every time she got to the end of the leash she brought herself back. In the early stages I don't really care where they are so much so long as they learn very strongly to come back from a tight leash without thinking about it. Believe me, Tess had had no shortage of more traditional training before this. This is Tess' third 10 minute session. The camera person has a small dog, Tess is dog aggressive and has picked up and shaken a small dog before. She actually looks pretty happy to see the dog in this clip, not threatened at all - and why would she? It's a positive, non-threatening environment with only good outcomes. Pavlov is always on your shoulder. What you need to take note of is what exactly is the dog doing at the time of the click? At first it looks like I'm teaching her to sniff the ground! She figures out pretty quickly I'm clicking for something else. She starts to prance there for a bit, so I click when her feet hit the ground. If you're not paying attention it looks like I'm rewarding her for prancing, but the clicker makes it very clear to Tess, it happened precisely when her feet hit the ground. I click for her head in all sorts of positions, she gets clicked for eye contact a lot, but I also deliberately click when she's in position but not looking at me. This is not heeling, after all. I also click before she hits the end of the leash at one point, probably looks like I'm reinforcing lunging but again, you have to take a snapshot of exactly what happens at the time of the click. It can be hard to get your head around at first, and I'm sure even a lot of clicker trainers will have questions about what I'm doing here (and maybe they would be right, too, I think I make a lot of mistakes in the clip). In the last few classes we had Tess was walking on a loose leash past other (reactive) dogs in close proximity. We also had her heeling around other dogs dragging a long line. It's probably not something you are used to seeing and early on, as you point out, it looks like she is all over the place. How long is the clip, a couple of minutes? And does she look the same at the end as in the beginning? If you'd seen her on a check chain you'd think even the first 10 seconds was an improvement Admittedly, despite all the classes, her owner was not competent with a check chain but the point is she became competent with my method very quickly and her dog started to enjoy being good. Thanks for the explanation Aidan, I understand what you are doing now. Personally, I would be confident to say the behaviour could be easily fixed on a prong collar in about 20 minutes, but having not seen the dog and the extent of the behaviour as you have, it's hard to see in short video. Ultimately, if she is working out and behaviour improved, you have done a good job

Mine too

Aidan, that video just seems like a food lure and essentially, the dog's all over the place, lunging at the camera man etc etc. I don't really understand what is being taught in relation to loose leash walking???

That is your opinion. There are no statistics to prove this & plenty would disagree with you based on experience. After 12 months volunteering at a local pound 1-2 times a week & having rehomed a number of pound dogs over the years for performance, I would be one to disagree. I am constantly astounded at how many solid temperaments there are in the pound each week. My first ever foster represented NSW at the National agility trial a few weeks ago. Sure...she had behavioural problems : she was too active as a 9 mth old BC pup to be stuck in a back yard. I don't think that you will find too many champion sporting dogs come from a rescue and trying to obtain one from a rescue is a huge gamble. It's best to obtain a puppy from parentage that have excelled in sport for generations for a better opportunity of gaining the required genetics.

Sorry, but disagree totally. My boy changed quite a lot once he reached sexual maturity and at no time did he ever encounter an entire bitch. He began to choose the fight over flight attitude and become much more confident and cockier around other dogs. Now that he's desexed, he's much more chilled out, however some of the behaviour has stuck. Given the choice again, I'd have desexed him around 12months, rather than waiting 18months and done him whilst he was still a naive adolescent. As for growth, Orbit has filled out and bulked up considerably since desexing. At 18months he was still quite light and one might say lanky, however now, another 18months on, and he's filled right out and bulked up. Personally, with the larger breeds I'd suggest waiting longer than 6months. But I'd also take into consideration temperament over aesthetics. No point having a bulky entire looking dog if he's a pain in the arse cause hormones got in the way. Stormie, flight isn't a good trait in any dog, it's one step away from unpredictable fear biting, confidence and fight is predictable, consistant and trainable. If your boy has a flight attitude, he sounds nervy in the first place???.

Conformation has nothing to do with temperament and drives required for working roles, it's a completely different criteria.

Just for interest, how do you improve the standard of the breed without Schutzhund testing your breeding stock???. How do you produce security/protection dogs which the breed standards determine is capable of this line of work???

It may depend on the breed of working dog with colour, but using the GSD as an example, providing the colour is acceptable by the breed standards it doesn't matter. Working lines litters are generally parented by dogs who have excelled in working roles having the genetics to pass on. Sometimes Schutzhund champions, police dogs of extrodinary ability, herding dogs and working roles where nerve, hardness, stability and trainabilty is tested.

I am not saying she is not a good breeder. What I am trying to work out is how you would aim for excellence without having something to measure against. How you could say that your dogs are better than anyone else's. If she is a professional working in dog psychology, she may be measuring her dogs against something that I am unaware of. Temperament is a valuable criteria, but you don't 'aim' for it. You need to know what temperament traits you are aiming for, and be able to distinguish the differences between adequate and excellent. I agree with the bolded comment. If the dogs are not in competition against others in some way, it boils down to taking the breeders word for the quality. It's not uncommon for some breeders to tell buyers that they breed the best dogs in the country untested and unverified against others

A friend of ours a few years ago purchased from a GSD show litter and chose the long coat puppy that was on limited register due to a coat fault in the breed. The other puppies were all on main register with show potential and our friend tried to bargain with the breeder to get the faulty puppy a bit cheaper. The breeder wouldn't budge on the price which was the same price for all