Black Bronson

Errr your aiming for a healthy dog - so what only purebreeds deserve to grow to their full potential? Cross or not he's still a very large dog and I would wait. Vets dont necessarily provide an unbiased view on this by the way You're putting words in my mouth! The OP is not aiming for a standard or type as it is a cross breed - therefore there is no way of knowing what the mature dog is supposed to look like. Black Bronson - You put up an interesting argument and talk about the "only genuine reason" - can you point me to any studies/ literature about this? It goes against what I have been told by people very experienced in dog behaviour so interested to learn more. I will try and find some studies, there are a quite a few, but also from my own experiences with entire males over the years mostly GSD's, I have never encounted any "entire male behaviour" issues that you commonly hear about. I have been involved with several fear aggressive GSD's that were desexed to supposedly cure the problem that made them more unpredictable in their aggression, definitely didn't fix it without specialised training. If a dog is well obedience trained entire or desexed IMO makes no difference to their behaviour or controlability. Many believe that entire males will fight........I know that with GSD's a dominant bitch will fight the boys, far worse than entire males working out who's boss???. Without training, I am yet to see a major behavioral issue corrected by soley desexing alone. I would be interested to hear from others who perhaps have???

Nice post Longdog, I fully agree with your perspective

The general "dog hating" public which makes up a large proportion of the community I think you will find don't like the APBT. There was a poll on Ninemsn not long ago and it was like 85% voted against the keeping of APBT's which wasn't a good indication I recall at the time???. Understandable given all the media hype, but opinions of the uneducated public is the concern I have of the breed's future creating a major brick wall when promoting the breed. My wife was never too flash on the APBT years ago until she was told the dog she had spent an afternoon playing with along with our dogs was a Pitbull I personally from knowing several Pits over the years were all great dogs, none were DA whatsoever

Except Herding. GSD of course can compete in herding trials. Both are great breeds if the dog is well bred. In the right hands they can be exceptional dogs but a disaster in the wrong hands. One breed difference I have had pointed out to me by a long time Dobe breeder many years ago was that Dobes can be a little too fast protecting their owners. This breeder was bitten by a friend's Dobe at a Royal show when she slapped the owner on the back to congratulate him on winning best of breed. The dog in question obviously thought she was threatening his owner and grabbed her by the arm. She said to me that most breeds would wait to see if there really was a threat but the Dobe will jump straight in on the defence. She blamed herself because she knew the breed so well and should have taken more care. Both breeds can have wonderful temperaments if bred and raised correctly but they are both very protective of their home and family. A fact that any owner needs to keep in mind so the dog doesn't protect them when they don't need protecting. Although a good Dobe can do the work of a GSD, most working dog trainers generally don't recommend them especially for handlers beginning in that line of work. The GSD is always from anything I have heard, the easier dog to train and handle with the most consistant temperament of the common working breeds. I guess it depends upon what you like the looks of best for a family pet. Like the GSD and Belgians have a similar look, but a Dobe looks completely different.

There are plenty of DA little dogs out there, yapping their little heads off and seriously wanting to kill other dogs, but it is rare that these little dogs cause more than an annoyance. Their behaviour is unacceptable to me, yet society does generally accept their DA behaviour. Contrast that with a large dog (of any breed) that has the same attitude. There you have a dog that should be muzzled when out in public, and should be kept in a very secure enclosure when unattended. It is a dog that will kill other people's dogs, because it has the physical capacity and the instinct do do it. Pitbull people need to address this instead of attempting to invalidate people's fears. What are responsible owners of these dogs prepared to concede if they really are committed to keeping their breed going in this country? I have never seen a pitbull as out of control as i have a SWF, even DA dogs don't exhibit aggression to all dogs. Of course we're going to try to invalidate peoples fears especially if they've been formed by mass hysteria. And what is it that we're supposed to concede? we all know they can be DA, anyone who owns any bull breed and doesn't admit so is a fool, big deal, that is why it's more about education and responsible ownership. The are plenty of DA dogs of different breeds and I have thought on many occassions if my GSD's behaved like some of the SWF's I would be battling to physically restrain them But not all DA dogs go for the win at all costs as some bull breed, Pit cross or whatever they are, do to cause horrific injuries as often which is what the general public hears about and taints the breed. People involved with the APBT breed are generally saying that they shouldn't be DA and make too many excuses and what others are saying, is that these sensationalised attacks are not by Labradors or Golden Retrievers, they are 9 times out of 10 a Bull breed of some description.

Are you saying that if your enthusiastic dog bounded up to say hello to a dog that didn't appreciate the attention and it was attacked and killed............you would just go with the flow???. I am guessing that you would scream blue murder that the attacking dog shouldn't have been there???. On the other hand, had your dog not invaded it's space, it wouldn't have happened. It's a bit of a scenario of what comes first, the chicken or the egg

What police role was the APBT used for overseas???. I know a few have been trained up for drug detection in the states. Thanks, Jeff. I didn't think that APBT's were succesful as security patrol/police dogs comparable with the GSD, Malinios disciplines???.

This behavioural perception of entire males is blown out of all proportion. The only time that a genuine issue can develop with entire males is in the presence of a bitch in season..........other than that, there is no difference. Desexing isn't a quick fix for a lack of training and in many cases, desexing and specialised training occur at the same time and the desexing get's the recognition for the improvement that the training created too often. Many a time I have seen fear aggressive dogs worsen after desexing and is not the ultimate fix over a proper training schedule for behavioural issues.

I think we all should be careful when passing judgment - as a renter, I can appreciate that sometimes you get forced into 'taking what you can get' when it comes to housing; you may not feel you have a choice. At least those people were trying to rehome, rather than euthanasing or worse - dumping! I am sure those ppl didn't feel their dogs were 'expendable', they prob thought they had no other option and it was hard enough without the harsh judgment of others. If you're lucky enough to be able to afford your own home, great; if you aren't - sometimes the worst happens. I don't know...........in the early 90's, we kept our dog in a rental that didn't permit pets, just didn't tell them and took the dog to mum's place at inspection time

I believe it's more difficult to find good Dobes than it is to find good GSD's. Dobe's have had their share of compromised temperaments and fear aggression is not uncommon in some lines. From a working perspective, there are very few Dobe lines in Australia that possess working ability anymore. Don't always believe the "lack of socialisation" excuse for fear aggression in working breeds Nic.........most is usually a genetic fault that the breeders often blame on the owners Yes, unfortunately this is quite correct - but there are alot less Dobes than there are GSD's. There aren't alot of Dobe breeders who place correct temperament on their breeding checklist or even consider it a factor in choosing a dog for a bitch. There are also some lines with fear based aggression, insecurity, no self confidence - and in some lines this is now consolidating into both dog and people aggression which is extremely bad for our breed. And yes it does come from genetics and the core temperament of the dog - which they will always revert back to in times of stress. Then there are those dogs that do it because they have to !!! not because they want to please or love to - those dogs you see standing outside the showring or the obedience ring with no life in their eyes, no personality - it breaks my heart to see them. They are not good examples of our breed. But then there are those who are serious about their breeding programs (or actually have a breeding 'program') and set about to prove that their dogs are capable of being everything our breed can be. My favourite breed quote is: While all men can admire the nobility and beauty, The breeder is intensely concerned with the type. He shall be the quintessence of all good qualities in compact form. His harmony of character and build is that of a very perfect animal —it is essentially that of utility. Those who seek to elevate any one aspect, at the expense of the whole, are not breeding true Dobermanns but rather just black and tan dogs. Dr Friedrich Karl Dorn I admire your honesty Bisart Dobes and it would be nice to see more of your perceptions with the breeders of GSD's, which have also suffered along with the Dobe and Rotty for that matter. I know of a few Dobe breeders working hard at maintaining type, but it's critical to find them to aquire a well bred dog. I have the deepest respect for the breeders who work hard at maintaining correct type in all the wonderful working breeds.

On a better note, I knew a police K9 officer that had his old patrol dog who was nearly 13. Every night he would put on his boots and belt and do a patrol with his old fellow around the block. He said mentally the dog still had it but with age his body was failing him for real work, but being his main man for so many years, in retirement the old dog needed to feel he was still useful and had a purpose in life and couldn't leave his old mate to rot away in the back yard. The officer told me that it was hard enough putting his time into a new dog and to get rid of his old boy was unthinkable. I can't imagine how anyone can discard and old dog as they deserve to live their life out with the same love and care they enjoyed from the beginning.

I believe it's more difficult to find good Dobes than it is to find good GSD's. Dobe's have had their share of compromised temperaments and fear aggression is not uncommon in some lines. From a working perspective, there are very few Dobe lines in Australia that possess working ability anymore. Don't always believe the "lack of socialisation" excuse for fear aggression in working breeds Nic.........most is usually a genetic fault that the breeders often blame on the owners

Personally, I would be careful with problem Dobes especially unstable temperaments that original owners can't handle. Sometimes people trying to re-home, don't divulge the whole story and what appears as a training issue can often be a genetic fault. Having experience with working breeds, any fearfulness is something that I would avoid in a major way and keep a look out for when considering adopting

Personally, I don't desex males and believe that the negatives outweigh the positives. If sterilising a male to avoid unwanted matings, I prefer a vastectomy to allow the dog to develop essential hormones for good health and growth. In a large breed, 18 months is the earliest I would consider desexing. 6 months is the standard answer which research has confirmed as too early in large breeds.

Personally, I don't desex males and believe that the negatives outweigh the positives. If sterilising a male to avoid unwanted matings, I prefer a vastectomy to allow the dog to develop essential hormones for good health and growth. In a large breed, 18 months is the earliest I would consider desexing. 6 months is the standard answer which research has confirmed as too early in large breeds.

What police role was the APBT used for overseas???.

Love Erny's posts and training insights, excellent

I too think it would be. Remember the "pupupupupupup" ? That always works to attract a puppy to you - it's something they know from when the breeder began calling them for their dinner, when they were at the age of eating solids. I think the conditioned response deteriorates over time if it stops being used, but many many dogs I've worked with still give me that indication that they know that sound, even if it is a long distant memory for them. From the "in the nest" and through early day training and then beyond, if you put your dog in a position where they don't get to fail a recall, then it lands an extraordinarily good foundation as a conditioned response. But it does rely on that consistency over time for it to stick. ETA : I don't know nor had ever heard of stuff/words such as PICNIC etc. before (other than to suggest a warm soft sunny day on a blanket under the filtering shade of a tree, and food, and wine ). I'm thinking you lot are somewhat younger (like half) than I . The breeder of our new working line GSD did the hand clap to attract the puppies initially and worked well with our little boy. He's now 11 weeks and using the hand clap, calling his name and reinforcing with a toy, praise and pat, his recall is surprisingly fairly good for a baby already. The hand clap will always raise his attention and get some eye focus which we are working on from there. Having said that, it's far easier to grab the attention of a little prey monster than a puppy of lesser motivation though.

Yeah, I used to think that. But then I thought I'd try liberating myself from it and seeing what happened. A lot depends on the dog itself too.

Puppies aren't found under a cabbage patch, some idiots are breeding them or irresponsibly owning dogs allowing accidental matings. The legislation should be focused upon and controlling breeding practices, not trying to shut the gate after the horse has bolted with desexing legislation. Illegal dog breeding 1st offence a hefty fine, 2nd offence, time in the slammer............that will stop most of them

That's exactly my view also Teebs

My GSD bought up quite a large rock once when he was young. He'd been a little off and started the heaves in the family room. Awaiting a mess on the floor, there was a heavy plop and moistened rock on the floor I have never seen a dog bring up one item like that before, it was rather amazing

EXCELLENT

The problem is the general public perception of the APBT which isn't good. There have been other polls on the ABPT before amoungst the general public and large percentages of people wanting them gone. In reality, I can't see anyone with the political powers to overturn BSL, lay their necks on the line in support of the APBT when so many people hate them. Politically, the majority view will always be supported not a minority group in most cases. It would have to reach a point where the general public majority thinks the APBT is ok before we see any positive action IMHO unfortunately.

We have been dog people since my grandparents bred and trained. My mother always taught me as a child, NEVER to pat strange dogs and that we had our own dogs to pat and cuddle. It was a simple rule and to this day 40 odd years later, I abide by the same rule and teach kids the same as I learned.