Black Bronson

I have two main registered unrestricted dogs by chasing the right deals which are out there if anyone wants to shop around

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life. You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home I'm sorry but IMO that's terrible advice, it is far from being over the top just to have a dog on limited register. Most breeders FULLY explain what the registry means so there is no ripping off, or over the top demands going on. YES it is YOUR choice if you want to breed or show, which is why you should buy a dog papered accordingly. If you want to show, buy on main register, if you just want a pet then go with limited. These days a dog that comes with no papers at all is from a less than reputable breeder. By providing limited register papers at least you know there is a good chance that breeder is a good one and registered with the ANKC. The breeder isn't "challenging your integrity" they are covering their own @rse because I can tell you now, I can't count on my fingers and toes the amount of people who have lied to and screwed over their dogs breeder. Shaar, I am referring to breeders who won't sell on main at all for the opportunity to buy an appropriately papered dog???. I'm one of those breeders who put those going to pet homes on the limit register ( regardless of the show potential ) and sells/givesaway/co-own those on the main register to known and approved show homes. Tell me why it is, that I should allow every Tom Dick and Harry that wants a main register dog, to have one ? My dogs come from some of the most successfull lines and kennels in the country, their immediate pedigrees contain multi BIS and BISS winners, the dogs themselves have their titles, their close relatives have proven time and again their worth in the ring and as breeding animals. I don't have the right to take that and spread it around the countryside willy nilly , nor do I want to. Those that have come before me, have worked bloody hard to put those dogs on the ground and I respect that. When they handed me the dogs, they made me a custodian of their lines and hard work. Tom, Dick & Harry can't breed under your prefix ..........so what's it matter if their progeny has one of your dogs involved???. If the progeny is no good using your male and an inadequate bitch is not your fault. But is it more the use of your male with a better bitch and Tom, Dick or Harry's kennel earns some wins over yours that you are worried about???. None the less, if T,D or H are producing better dogs than you..........that's good for the breed isn't it???. Sell them on main, throw your hat in the ring like a true competitor............any one can keep winning with a shop closed to competition ;) the same old arguement pops up time and again. The breeder is afraid of competition and being beaten by their own if they part with them and in the majority of cases it couldn't be further from the truth. Then there is no valid reason to place breedworthy examples on limited register YES there is and I have ONE EXAMPLE. I breed Xoloitzcuintle ( in case YOU do not know there are only an estmated 4000 dogs world wide) this breed has fought back from near extinction with the blood, sweat and tears of very dedicated breeders who care very much about the very limited lines and the very precarious position the breed has been in and will continue to be in. In Australia I DO NOT want every dog I breed to be bred from, because this itself will add to the gene pool limits. I doubt people will import new sires as this is very costly, and I dont want my dogs to become as they have in the USA ( a DD breed by people who want a quick $$) I will only breed with the very best ( not just breedworthy) and in all probability not all coateds ( who are VERY breedworthy) this is my chpoice as a breeder and as I have much more experience with this breed than anyone else here, that is a VALID reason that has come from many great breeders with far more years of experience than all of us here !! I cant give you BB a simpler example so I hope this makes sense for this particular` breed. Other breeds will have their reasns based on many factors, this is something you seem to be missing in each post! That's understandable with a rare breed and I would guess that demand far outweighs supply which is a unique situation compared with the common breeds that may have 50 odd litters available around Australia at any one time.

well said Whippets, Black Bronson YOU can learn a lot from the experienced breeders on here, that are here to help and advise newbies and people that have NO idea, we ALL never stop learning in the Dog Game it is only those that choose to absorb that become truly respected. Newbies need to be advised with the truth about main and limited register as I mentioned before, many newbie purebreed owners think that "ALL" pet puppies have to be on limited register like it's an ANKC standard requirement because that's how some breeders put it across.........pets go on limited. But what they don't explain properly is that pets from their kennel go on limited because they have chosen to do so, not because of any official requirement. So the newbie purebreed owner has just accepted the breeders terms after being given a conjob.............that's what I am talking about Some breeders forget to even mention the limited register and the newbie owner thinks that the papers coming in the post are the real deal which isn't fair is it???.

Very nice explanation Shaar............I understand the concept, but in reality, most breeders will have that one special dog that ticked all the boxes and they spend a lifetime trying to duplicate it.............some achieve it, some don't and not every dog bred has the X factor. Having said that, it's not as cut and dry as blending a special sauce and breeding with a dog from those special lines doesn't guarentee the X factor will be produced and found with only part of the ingredient in place. The likelyhood of a special line through ancestor association producing that X factor is highly blown out of all proportion. There is no secrecy as far as what lines and dog's produce what, as it's all written on the pedigree that anyone can access. Personally, I think it's more a paranoid reflex action to assume that the breeding of a dog using other breeders lines will bring the original kennel undone from a far fetched imagination.

The point is Whippets, not "all" breeders do what you are promoting as acceptable, in fact many very established experienced breeders hate this concept of buyer restriction as much as I do. This main/limited register discussion is not by any means the standard practice of all breeders, so in the market of buying a puppy, it pays to look around and see who is buyer restrictive and who isn't. To claim that the better breeders use restrictive measures is nonesense, in fact as I have mentioned previously in my breed recently, the breeders who did restrict, didn't have the proven lines that the non restrictive breeders offered anyway.........so what's the point of buying from them to get an experimental breeding with restrictions over a solid line without

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life. You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home I'm sorry but IMO that's terrible advice, it is far from being over the top just to have a dog on limited register. Most breeders FULLY explain what the registry means so there is no ripping off, or over the top demands going on. YES it is YOUR choice if you want to breed or show, which is why you should buy a dog papered accordingly. If you want to show, buy on main register, if you just want a pet then go with limited. These days a dog that comes with no papers at all is from a less than reputable breeder. By providing limited register papers at least you know there is a good chance that breeder is a good one and registered with the ANKC. The breeder isn't "challenging your integrity" they are covering their own @rse because I can tell you now, I can't count on my fingers and toes the amount of people who have lied to and screwed over their dogs breeder. Shaar, I am referring to breeders who won't sell on main at all for the opportunity to buy an appropriately papered dog???. I'm one of those breeders who put those going to pet homes on the limit register ( regardless of the show potential ) and sells/givesaway/co-own those on the main register to known and approved show homes. Tell me why it is, that I should allow every Tom Dick and Harry that wants a main register dog, to have one ? My dogs come from some of the most successfull lines and kennels in the country, their immediate pedigrees contain multi BIS and BISS winners, the dogs themselves have their titles, their close relatives have proven time and again their worth in the ring and as breeding animals. I don't have the right to take that and spread it around the countryside willy nilly , nor do I want to. Those that have come before me, have worked bloody hard to put those dogs on the ground and I respect that. When they handed me the dogs, they made me a custodian of their lines and hard work. Tom, Dick & Harry can't breed under your prefix ..........so what's it matter if their progeny has one of your dogs involved???. If the progeny is no good using your male and an inadequate bitch is not your fault. But is it more the use of your male with a better bitch and Tom, Dick or Harry's kennel earns some wins over yours that you are worried about???. None the less, if T,D or H are producing better dogs than you..........that's good for the breed isn't it???. Sell them on main, throw your hat in the ring like a true competitor............any one can keep winning with a shop closed to competition :D the same old arguement pops up time and again. The breeder is afraid of competition and being beaten by their own if they part with them and in the majority of cases it couldn't be further from the truth. Then there is no valid reason to place breedworthy examples on limited register

Not true. The registration has no bearing on a dog's usability or even its suitability as a pet. Which is the purpose that most people buy dogs for. Registration does have bearing on a dog's usability regarding showing and breeding.

And what about the situation where you have perfectly valid reasons for not wanting your dog (and pedigree) to fall into the hands of another person? Or woe betide, a puppy farmer or oodle breeder? There are many documented cases where people have sold a dog in good faith not knowing that the person to whom they are selling is an agent for an exporter or an undesirable purchaser. Puppies sold on Main Register are a lot more marketable to the unscrupulous and any breeder selling puppies on Main Register can surely have no peace of mind that their puppies are in the right hands. The only true peace of mind that a breeder can really have is not selling their puppies and keeping them. Is a puppy farmer worse than someone who ends up not caring for the dog properly when it grow up..........all these scenarios are bad and are part and parcel of selling puppies. Yes, it's a possibility, but in reality what percentage of pure breed buyers in the market for a puppy specifically to use for mis-adventure???. Perhaps a more efficient screening process of potential buyers is a better proposition. If a puppy is released entire regardless of registration status, doesn't stop it being bred if puppy farming is the motive, but limited registration isn't the fix for all potential problems that could surface.

'Skye GSD' date='18th May 2010 - 03:50 PM' post='4541529'] Your raise an excellent point Skye GSD, but the problem that seems to exist in discussion of our breed is that the GSD being an all-rounder and working breed is that they cover a broad spectrum of different temperments, dispositions, drive levels and traits. Too many people think the way their GSD behaves is right which seems to create the slinging matches that evolve unfortunately, and would be a great idea for this to resolve and mount constructive discussions about the breed.

What an absolute load of rubbish! Limited register means you have a fully registered, tracable pedigree dog. The dog bought without papers is a dog - not traceable or proven as anything. You look at a puppy, you find out the conditions. If you like (and the breeder likes you) you buy the puppy. If you don't like the conditions you don't buy it. If the breeder doesn't like you - well seeya later. DOGS ON LIMITED REGISTRY ARE NOT THE SAME AS AN UNPAPERED DOG! It's exactly the same as the old unpapered dog in reality. The only difference is that limited register makes it more officially unusable, but the same restrictions apply

Exactly , so why sell a good dog on limited register???. I am not $hit stirring at all, my point of view is that a good example of the breed should be sold on main register, and you are trying convince puppy buyers that selling on limited is better :D It's not better on limited for the puppy buyer at all, it only serves to restrict their potential opportunities when owning a good dog. I don't convince anyone of anything. If I sell a pet on limited register it stays on limited register. Not every puppy buyer wants "opportunities". They just want a pet.....end of story. You are obviously talking about your own experiences and considering you don't represent everyone else in the world you should just relate to "yourself". If a puppy buyer purchases for a pet with no interest in "opportunities" there is no threat selling on main anyway. It would make no difference to the breeder either way in those circumstances and could even be desexed.

Exactly , so why sell a good dog on limited register???. Because as the breeder, it is their prerogative to sell the dog on whichever register they choose!! Whether you like it or not. Correct...........as is the prospective puppy buyers perogative to walk down the driveway to another "non restrictive" breeder. The more buyers who walk away from restrictive sales, the faster the breeders will have no option other than to re-address their sales policies and provide what the buyers rightly deserve.

Was your scoopa on limited register

Exactly , so why sell a good dog on limited register???. I am not $hit stirring at all, my point of view is that a good example of the breed should be sold on main register, and you are trying convince puppy buyers that selling on limited is better It's not better on limited for the puppy buyer at all, it only serves to restrict their potential opportunities when owning a good dog.

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life. You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home Im not sure you quite get what the pedigree system is all about. Please enlighten me then Steve

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life. You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home I'm sorry but IMO that's terrible advice, it is far from being over the top just to have a dog on limited register. Most breeders FULLY explain what the registry means so there is no ripping off, or over the top demands going on. YES it is YOUR choice if you want to breed or show, which is why you should buy a dog papered accordingly. If you want to show, buy on main register, if you just want a pet then go with limited. These days a dog that comes with no papers at all is from a less than reputable breeder. By providing limited register papers at least you know there is a good chance that breeder is a good one and registered with the ANKC. The breeder isn't "challenging your integrity" they are covering their own @rse because I can tell you now, I can't count on my fingers and toes the amount of people who have lied to and screwed over their dogs breeder. Shaar, I am referring to breeders who won't sell on main at all for the opportunity to buy an appropriately papered dog???. I'm one of those breeders who put those going to pet homes on the limit register ( regardless of the show potential ) and sells/givesaway/co-own those on the main register to known and approved show homes. Tell me why it is, that I should allow every Tom Dick and Harry that wants a main register dog, to have one ? My dogs come from some of the most successfull lines and kennels in the country, their immediate pedigrees contain multi BIS and BISS winners, the dogs themselves have their titles, their close relatives have proven time and again their worth in the ring and as breeding animals. I don't have the right to take that and spread it around the countryside willy nilly , nor do I want to. Those that have come before me, have worked bloody hard to put those dogs on the ground and I respect that. When they handed me the dogs, they made me a custodian of their lines and hard work. Tom, Dick & Harry can't breed under your prefix ..........so what's it matter if their progeny has one of your dogs involved???. If the progeny is no good using your male and an inadequate bitch is not your fault. But is it more the use of your male with a better bitch and Tom, Dick or Harry's kennel earns some wins over yours that you are worried about???. None the less, if T,D or H are producing better dogs than you..........that's good for the breed isn't it???. Sell them on main, throw your hat in the ring like a true competitor............any one can keep winning with a shop closed to competition

what about the breeders who do this what about the breeders who do that and these breeders...........and those breeders. Once you've finished having a bitch about breeders maybe you can move on and whinge about why the poopa scoopa breaks after 5 uses. I would prefer to keep my responses on topic thanks Whippets

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life. You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home I'm sorry but IMO that's terrible advice, it is far from being over the top just to have a dog on limited register. Most breeders FULLY explain what the registry means so there is no ripping off, or over the top demands going on. YES it is YOUR choice if you want to breed or show, which is why you should buy a dog papered accordingly. If you want to show, buy on main register, if you just want a pet then go with limited. These days a dog that comes with no papers at all is from a less than reputable breeder. By providing limited register papers at least you know there is a good chance that breeder is a good one and registered with the ANKC. The breeder isn't "challenging your integrity" they are covering their own @rse because I can tell you now, I can't count on my fingers and toes the amount of people who have lied to and screwed over their dogs breeder. Shaar, I am referring to breeders who won't sell on main at all for the opportunity to buy an appropriately papered dog???.

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life. You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home if the puppy is of good quality and is placed on the limit register, then no buyer is being ripped off, providing they understand that they cannot exhibit or breed from the animal.... full stop end of story. What about the breeders who misconstrude the application of the limited register for people to misbelieve that pets "must" be on limited register by regulation failing to disclose that the idea is theirs only, not a requirement of the registration system. Many pet buyers are under the impression that main register by legislation can only be granted to show/breeding homes.........now, who told them that nonesense

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life. You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home

Breeders may not want to sell their dogs to people that have no respect for their agenda. You talk as though there is a large dog factory out there supplying all the breeders with stock. You would do better if you saw the best bred dogs as being hand-crafted individually by an artist. Not everyone will get one, and your attitude almost guarantees that some breeders will never sell a dog to you. Not all breeders just "sell dogs". Some breed for the improvement of the breed and that may mean that some breeders will not place dogs with people that have no respect for their breeding agenda. If they were only interested in retail sales they could put the puppies in the shop to sell. Word gets around too. Your opinion has probably been noted by many. I don't buy dogs from breeders who's agendas vary from what I am looking for, there is no point for me to make such a purchase and no point for the breeder selling to me either.

Yeah, but it happens and on one occassion my male was used being a litter brother of the dog they wanted because of who owned the desired dog. The two breeders wouldn't deal with each other through personal reasons and luckily my dog was on main register. The breeder no way would have upgraded to main if my dog was on limited to sire the other breeders litter. It was a nice litter and good for the breed about to be restricted by political issues which I think is crap

Which is precisely why Limited Register CAN be raised to Main Register upon application by registered owner and breeder of record. Not all breeders will raise a limited to main............seen some massive arguments over that before

Not all breeders operate with your perspectives Ellz unfortunately

That is how you end up p!ssing off a lot of breeders. Yes, of course we all want to better the breed, but there is a right and wrong way to go about it. I personally wouldn't do that unless the breeder (lets call them Joe) had given me permission to do so. If I ever wanted another dog off 'Joe' again I doubt they would sell to me because I had done the wrong thing by them. Then beacuse I had done the wrong thing 'Joe' tells another breeder about me, then they tell another breeder, and another. Very soon I would have a very limited choice in what kennels I can buy from. Agreed. If I was a breeder, I'd be pretty annoyed to know one of the dogs I had bred and trusted with someone on the main register, was studding him out to other breeders if I hadn't approved. I'm all for breed improvement naturally, but I don't believe that putting all the quality pups on main to be bred by whoever because you'd very soon see the type that you'd put a lot of work in to create, go down the drain. Why would the type "go down the drain", that's not the standard result by any means. Often the original breeders placing their dogs on limited to "protect their lines", are not overly experienced anyway, neither are the lines their creations. Breeders like to think they know what they are doing, but many a time a breeder has shown me show results on a stud for the reason to sire a litter. When asking what the dog brings to the table in terms of traits........they don't know