Aidan3

Worth looking up all the same. A very interesting study and if you are the sort of person who likes to make their own decisions then it will be right up your alley! Okay, so lets say you do have an extremely agressive dog. What if that dog then turns his aggression on the handler? How would you use the harness to control that behaviour then? Good question. If I was genuinely concerned that the dog might redirect to the handler I would suggest a head halter, either a Gentle Leader or the Black Dog model so that the handler can control the dog's head and mouth easily.

There have been several reputable trainers who specialise in this field posting in this thread. Are you suggesting that Cosmolo, Erny and K9Pro aren't "reputable"? More personal attacks. Aidan, I dont think that's what BB was trying to suggest at all. How many times has it been said, that the only thing two trainers will agree on is that the third is wrong? "you won't find ANY reputable and experienced trainers...to agree with your concept" and yet the three I mentioned have all posted in this thread stating that they have used front attaching harnesses in similar situations. Perhaps he should be more careful with his choice of words? De ja vu...

Provided the owner doesn't pander to this (i.e worry about it, remove the head collar, let the dog go back to pulling on a flat collar) then it usually passes soon enough. Personally, of all the dogs I have ever introduced to a head collar, none of them have ever done this. Of dogs I have worked with where the owner has made the decision (on their own) to get a head collar and then turned up at class with it on without introducing it as I would have, the dogs work just fine and get over the loss of freedom to pull very quickly. But this is extremely hard to do when you have an emotional attachment to the dog. Yup, horses for courses. Some people see the dog having a minor hissy fit because they can't get their way any more, others see the dog as shut down. You can imagine what some people might think when their dog squeals the first time it lunges on a prong collar. We're all different, that's why I like to deal with data rather than opinions. I personally don't consider it reasonable to cut off a dog's air supply when I know that there are effective alternatives but I do not judge you personally for reagarding this as a reasonable option. If you get a chance Google "Milgram Experiment" and see how readily we can be conditioned to accept some things as normal where otherwise we would not (for e.g., would you let someone do this to your child, even if it meant your child would learn not to do something very harmful to himself or others?) The front attaching harness gives you leverage. The dog cannot pull you towards whatever it wants to, and if he does become aggressive you can simply walk away. Distance puts them out of drive pretty quickly. I don't care if they want to have a hissy fit on the way. I have used them on some very large dogs with some very small handlers, and Cosmolo and K9Pro seem to have had similar results. Ask Steve if you want a second opinion. It is very difficult for a dog to pull forwards in a front attaching harness.

Provided the owner doesn't pander to this (i.e worry about it, remove the head collar, let the dog go back to pulling on a flat collar) then it usually passes soon enough. Personally, of all the dogs I have ever introduced to a head collar, none of them have ever done this. Of dogs I have worked with where the owner has made the decision (on their own) to get a head collar and then turned up at class with it on without introducing it as I would have, the dogs work just fine and get over the loss of freedom to pull very quickly. Finally, I think we agree on something I'm not sure if we disagreed on anything, you just weren't sure what I was saying Maybe you associated me with that instructor on some level? I don't know!

More personal attacks instead of a cogent argument. No doubt there would be some trainers who think the advice (which, for the record, I did not give) is "stupid" and others who would not. What does that prove? There have been several reputable trainers who specialise in this field posting in this thread. Are you suggesting that Cosmolo, Erny and K9Pro aren't "reputable"? More personal attacks. There was no respect in that. It was yet another personal attack instead of a cogent argument. I'm not sure what you consider to be a formal training accomplishment, but no doubt it's a very narrow definition that suits your own particular world view.

Trust me, rugby is much more fun As I have indicated, it may not be representative of all dogs but it is certainly compelling and does demonstrate that it is possible to misinterpret behaviour. I agree. I rarely recommend them.

The dogs in the study showed behaviours that have been interpreted by many as stress, they were measured for physiological signs to see if the interpretations were correct. It turns out that the interpretations were not correct, the dogs were not stressed despite appearances. That doesn't mean that there won't be dogs who are stressed by head collars. This is not a contradiction, the study measured a sample of dogs, not every dog in the world ever born. There may be some dogs who do find head collars stressful, and if a dog is pawing to the point of self-mutilation then he is probably stressed. Actually I don't care if he's stressed or not, if he self-mutilating while wearing a head collar then that dog should not be wearing a head collar! That doesn't mean that I have discounted any dogs. It means that dogs who are pawing or appear shut down while wearing head collars probably aren't really stressed, but if it's any worse than this then the dog shouldn't be wearing a head collar. The only way we can really know is to measure physiological signs. I could cite about a hundred studies which discuss how science has come to this conclusion and how we know that the measures used in the experiment are valid but that's a discussion for another day. If the dog isn't stressed then they probably just aren't happy about not being able to bounce around at the end of the leash on their own terms. Boo hoo for them. Whether the dog will stay this way or whether it's the best tool for the dog is something that would have to be assessed on an individual basis. Of course we don't need a head collar to teach a dog to walk on a loose leash. Horses for courses. The instructor you saw was an over-zealous cookie pusher from what I can gather, probably not the last you'll meet.

That is true, but a well designed longitudinal study should throw up a probability of injury with a reasonably large sample. A confounder would be that dogs who pull into flat collars would also be at risk of injury so even if head collars do cause injury the data might not show it compared to the controls (just thinking out loud here). I don't know much about necks and spines (apart from being a qualified Bowen Therapist in a former life), but what I know from playing in the tight five in rugby is that having your head pulled to the side isn't something I worry about. Having force applied directly to your neck, like in a high tackle, or down on your head, like in a bad scrum, are the big worries. If this applies to dogs I have no idea. Certainly any dog who is chronically pulling into any sort of neck or head collar is at heightened risk of overuse injury, and thankfully dogs in head collars tend not to pull into them chronically (as they do into flat collars), although they do exist as we know. Sorry, couldn't get you the whole paper. My university does not have a veterinary science department so does not subscribe to this journal. I would like to know the sample size used in particular. Corvus might have access to it.

I'm not sure why you think that it is acceptable to call my advice "stupid" but I would remind you that this sort of attack is not appropriate here. A front attaching harness gives the owner leverage so that the dog is not able to overpower the handler. The handler is free to simply walk away from a difficult situation taking the dog with them. This is not true when the dog is wearing a check chain or dominant dog collar and unless the handler is very strong they will not be able to complete the dangerous procedure that you have described. Given your now evident lack of understanding of the tool being discussed I have to wonder why you believe you are qualified to criticise it? Have you ever seen one being used? I'm afraid Ed Frawley's opinion isn't much to base an argument on.

So what you're trying to say is the dogs that are NOT good candidates for the head collar and DO become stressed to the point of self mutilation don't count? I didn't discount any dogs at all and if after reading this you have any doubts I'd be interested in how you came to that conclusion? I said that the results of the study do not apply to the entire population of dogs. There are "outliers" in any population. Just because this study says that dogs wearing head collars don't demonstrate physiological signs of stress doesn't mean that there won't be dogs in the entire population of dogs in the world who aren't stressed. What the study makes clear is that pawing at a head collar, looking down, or not looking at the handler as much are not always signs of stress. For the representative sample of dogs in the study wearing Gentle Leaders those behaviours were not signs of stress according to the physiological measures taken. This point is very important.

I thought that might get some responses! Firstly, no it does not apply to the entire population of dogs. However, it does clearly demonstrate that just because a dog paws at his nose and puts his head down and not look at the owner does not indicate that the dog is stressed. This makes it hard to know whether you are using common sense or not (intuitively any reasonable person might conclude that a dog who looks shut down or paws at his nose is stressed), but I would think that if a dog is scratching to the point of mutilation then that particular dog is not a candidate for the head collar.

Not to my knowledge. They have been in use since 1980 with no evidence suggesting a need to investigate. Here's an interesting one, "Owners of dogs wearing head collars may be interested to know that their dogs are not physiologically stressed when the collars are initially applied, despite nose pawing." http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/arti...0113-0/abstract So much for the common objections "but he hates it" and "but head collars are aversive". Data speaks volumes.

There are, of course, veterinary behaviourists with extensive experience with working breeds including GSDs. Dr Holmes, for e.g, who has been working with these dogs (including dogs in service) since the 70s.

I dont know Aidan... how can a dog having his neck contantly pulled to one side be any good for him? I can think of quite a few doggy chiro's who would beg to differ with you... I don't think any constant tension around the neck is a good idea, and a flat collar can be damaging in the long term. I do much prefer front attaching harnesses (and double-ended leashes), but the majority of dogs on head halters are not walking with their head being pulled to one side - they just walk normally and unrestrained. What's more, they are aware of the halter so they don't lunge in the same way that dogs on flat collars or check chains do. I know of at least one doggy chiro who is vocal about head halters but where are the academic papers? Where are the case studies? There aren't even any real attempts at investigation into this alleged problem. If there are thousands upon thousands of dogs out there wearing head halters and no actual data to suggest that they cause damage (above chance) then you would have to conclude that the problem probably does not really exist. Granted, it is not easy to publish a paper in a reputable journal without a good study design and that would require funding but if there were enough anecdotal reports funding could be found. This would make a very good thesis for a vet science graduate because, if there is enough anecdotal evidence, then it would be relevant (and relevance is right up the top of the list for academics and journals). But so far, nothing. And nothing in so many years with such a large sample suggests to me that it's not a genuine issue. You raised the issue of calming a dog down in this situation. With such an effective means of control as a front-attaching harness or head halter you simply calmly walk away.

Aidan............don't forget to answer this question, we are all patientely waiting. This is the scene: One of your 45kilo female customers that you have advised to use a harness on a 42kilo dog that's just tipped over the aggression threshhold and wants to take someones head off. The dog is pulling the owner towards a 10 year old child backed up against a fence petrified that the dog is about to kill him. The owner can't physically hold the dog back and the kid is frozen in fear................what are you going to do to stop an attack in that situation when the dog is un-muzzled and wearing a harness BB, to be honest I'm not sure that having this discussion is very profitable for either of us. Your most recent comments demonstrate ignorance of principles of behaviour and modern equipment that does not fit into your experience and understanding, which as far as I can tell hasn't changed much since the 1970s. If you don't understand that a front attaching harness prevents the dog from pulling, or the most basic principles of classical conditioning (which was studied and well understood 50 years before Koehler started yanking and cranking) then how do we ever get to the same page? I have a client with a rescue dog who was aggressive towards toddlers, children, had bitten adult men, and wouldn't let other dogs near him. He was muzzled, medicated, and kept away from everyone. She started working with me and suddenly her dog was playing with other dogs and letting men approach. We did not use a single correction with this dog, not even so much as a leash pop or verbal reprimand. He was not perfect, she could walk him off-leash around other dogs, but he was still fairly terrible with kids because we hadn't worked on that. Then she fell pregnant. Fast forward three years and she has just had another baby, her extended family has grown, and her daughter has friends over. While she closely supervises, the dog is clearly comfortable with children now and she has no real concerns for their safety or her dog's anxiety. Why do I tell you this? Not in the hope that you will change what you do, but in the hope that you will broaden your perspective of what is possible and maybe accept that there are different ways of doing things which are effective, and possibly even more effective. I do not consider a dog who is acting out of avoidance to be safe around things that he is still afraid of - at least when they were barking and lunging everyone knew what to expect. As far as a 45kg person being dragged around by a 40kg aggressive dog on a front attaching harness, have you ever used a front attaching harness? I originally ignored your question because it just seemed such a silly thing to ask. The same as your comments on my friend with the GSDs, are you a 45kg vegan woman? If not, then your experience does not correlate with hers. I'm a 105kg powerlifter, rugby second rower and dog trainer; you could give me a couple of Malamutes in pulling harnesses and I would be able to walk them nicely. How does that relate to my 45kg vegan friend? Zero relevance. Secret Kei asked about injury. There is no empirical evidence linking head halters with injury that I have found. I have access to thousands of journals on academic databases, as does my veterinary behaviourist colleague and neither of us could find a shred of evidence that there has ever been an injury in a healthy dog directly attributable to a head halter. Plenty of arguments, a few anecdotal reports, no data. With the hundreds of thousands of these things used every day you would think that there would be at least one properly documented case of injury or at least a study showing a statistically significant correlation, but if there is then it has escaped us. DOLers can make of that what they will, and no doubt there will be some objections. If someone turns up a study, a case study, a survey report - whatever, then I would be very interested and I keep my mind open to the possibility that there may be data down the track or data that we have missed.

Some of us train some dogs entirely without corrections at all. Keep reading, keep learning, keep asking questions. If your dog is working for the reinforcer, there is no need to tell him when he has done something wrong, but you do need to learn how to break things down into tiny little pieces. For very soft dogs and trainers who are not experienced at free shaping, I suggest you incorporate some target training.

I havent asked yet, it was just a thought and i was going to ask my vet as well. Because he seems defensive,i thought it might just help give him alittle more nerve and maybe lessen his fast reaction, i want to do whatever i can to help him succeed It's preferable to see a veterinary behaviourist. Vets can prescribe medications, but are not qualified in behaviour until they have completed post-graduate qualifications in this area. Unfortunately this means that they are not always capable of selecting the right medication, and are rarely competent in it's use. There are protocols for going onto and coming off the main drugs used in the treatment of fear aggression because they have effects on brain chemistry. Not all dogs (or people) have naturally ideal brain chemistry for calm behaviour. So medication can be very useful and I would encourage you to speak to an appropriately qualified person who may be able to work in conjunction with your current behaviourist.

Be a Tree is really an extinction procedure, which I would say is "corrective" in that it changes the unwanted behaviour, but it's not a punisher. I'm fairly firm with some dogs, in that I don't give them any impression that I will let them pull me around and so they are getting some collar pops as I change direction or stop suddenly, but I don't believe that [collar pop] is the stimulus that modifies their behaviour. All pulling dogs are intermittently reinforced for pulling by getting where they want to go. Ending that schedule of reinforcement is unavoidable if you want to stop leash pulling.

Just in addition to my previous post, it is still quite common to see dogs dragging their owners around as they gasp for air, constricted by the check chain being used incorrectly. I certainly wouldn't say that things were any better in the old days. Putting aside the lack of training aspect, I would rather see this sort of dog in a head halter or harness not pulling than being choked by a chain. At least they are getting walked and everyone is happy.

I'd be disillusioned by any trainer who didn't show the client how to train the dog, I'm not sure what it has to do with the equipment they use? I'm also not sure why you would insist that a head collar is a gimmick just because it is relatively new? It's quite simple, they give leverage. If the dog is stronger than the owner, they address the power imbalance. That's it. They do not train a dog to walk close to you and neither does a prong collar. You train a dog to walk in close proximity to you using lots and lots of reinforcement - and that goes whether you use positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement. On leash or off-leash. If someone needs leverage (dog chases cats for e.g) or just needs to take the dog for a walk before they are reliable on a flat collar, you use a head halter. I have a friend who weighs 45kg, her two dogs (now deceased) both almost outweighed her. She used head halters on both dogs every single day. These dogs had obedience titles, had never pulled on the leash problematically, and had excellent off-leash obedience. She was just being pragmatic.

Sure, the most common example would be pup playing with owner, pup gets too rough, owner walks off and shuts door behind them. The stimulus removed is the owner. Another example, dog starts barking while playing fetch, owner takes ball and puts it away. I agree. And it would probably surprise many as to how that stress would and could compare with other training methods. I'm not aware of any empirical data that really looks at this so it would be hard to make any sort of judgement, though many do. My philosophy is that the dog should feel in control of the consequences. We do have empirical evidence that this is important. Arbitrary judgements about which "quadrant" a trainer will use I find a bit pointless in this regard.

I thought you would say that . So that I can be clear with what your word definitions are, would you mind giving me a simple example of what you would define as Negative Punishment? Negative punishment is when you remove a stimulus contingent upon a response, and that response diminishes. By contrast, Extinction is where a previously reinforced response is no longer reinforced. In -P you are taking away a stimulus, in extinction you are failing to provide a reinforcer for a previously reinforced response. And that's how we avoid putting too fine a point on it :D I wouldn't argue that either was any less stressful, that would depend on a number of factors; but the natural process of free operant shaping is to reinforce something else and that immediately mitigates stress.

Where's my reward for offering the desired response? I gave you a smiley, they don't give me much to work with here... have a - it's better than a apparently.

Yes, errmmm, "thickheads", that's what I thought of them too. They weren't even doing something comfortable, I think they were about to mess about with trailbikes (illegally, but seeing as the cops didn't respond when I caught two blokes about to torch a car up there I doubt they'll worry about trailbikes either). When did I become Aidan the first? Different computer, different email, password dyslexia.

Would you always make that conclusion? Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is not necessarily a sign of stress. Not necessarily.. but rapid and frantic are different and if a dog's body language says "stressed", its different to "focussed and eager". That's what I'd hoped you would say I don't draw too many conclusions about stress, obviously too much is a bad thing (and that is relative), but it might be an indicator about what the trainer is doing and how learning could be improved.