Moselle

I'm not sure if this colour is acceptable for british bulldogs but whatever the case...it is simply the most stunning BB I have ever seen. :D :heart:

I thought I would throw another MERLE dog....just for good measure, lol. Merle schnauzer.

It is frustrating that some pet owners are oblivious to the fact that other pet owners may not share the same opinion as themselves. Some people don't like other dogs approaching their own dog for whatever reason, i.e. disease, aggression, etc. It does make me cringe when I see people taking their dog for a walk OFF LEASH in a busy road/street. Even if they are walking on a footpath....you can never be too sure that your dog will remain where it is safest....anything can happen, what if something attracts its attention and it decides to give chase ??? Such irresponsible people with no foresight to possible risks are most annoying (being polite here!).

Merle chihuahuas.....mmmm, most endearing.

Here is a photo of two all white NEWFOUNDLAND dogs.

Dalmations do come in different packages Firstly, a blue dalmation Secondly, a long coated dalmation Thirdly, an orange dalmation

Flowered Shar Pei..... Does look striking though.

Parti-coloured Yorkshire Terriers Cute though.

Yet I seem to recall you might have a liking for Arabian horses?? If we want to talk inbreeding you can't them out if it, they have been tightly inbred for thousands of years - making them what they are now... Sorry for more derailing... couldn't resist... Although I dont particularly favour inbreeding, I am certainly not against LINEBREEDING ! Why would you think that I am into arabian horses ??? AND whatever the case, just cause I remarked that I may not be a fan of INBREEDING does not mean that I should not be owning any animals simply because there may be a chance that they have been inbred :D

Yes you are right Jaxx. Moment of weakness :D oh me too i was with you me three. I had actually promised myself to leave any thread that Moselle posted in....I slipped up. Won't happen again. maybe we could start a support group That would be very much appreciated as I am noticing a pattern here where no matter what I say you and a couple of others seem to be DERAILING what I say as a matter of habit yet what I say has been said so many times before but it is me you have chosen to victimise so if you would make a point of ignoring me I would be most grateful. :D

so do a lot of cross breeds Absolutely, purebreds, crossbreds....you name it. :D

Yet you appear to have issues with breeders breeding to the standard??? I don't really have issues with breeders breeding to the standard, all I am saying is that if a particular breed of dog can produce colours that are not necessarily part of today's standard, then perhaps we should revise the standard to allow for certain colours but still opting to breed for soundness and all that the standard stipulates although as everyone knows....some purebreds do leave a little or is that alot to be desired as far as 'soundness' is concerned. you do know this is a pure breed forum? Yes I do know and appreciate the fact that it is a purebred forum but why are you SINGLING me out? I have been reading this forum for years long before I finally decided to join and many many posters even reg. breeders themselves talk openly about the lack of soundness in some breeds. Should I do a search for you and show you a fair few posts that discuss this.... as a reminder to you??? :D

Yet you appear to have issues with breeders breeding to the standard??? I don't really have issues with breeders breeding to the standard, all I am saying is that if a particular breed of dog can produce colours that are not necessarily part of today's standard, then perhaps we should revise the standard to allow for certain colours but still opting to breed for soundness and all that the standard stipulates although as everyone knows....some purebreds do leave a little or is that alot to be desired as far as 'soundness' is concerned.

If the standard has disqualifying colours such as the toller standard does then breeders shouldn't select for them or they become nothing more tha colour breeders and as tollersowned says there are so few of them that if selected and bred for you will end up with all sorts of other problem due to inbreeding. They can be sold as pets on the LR no problems (except for white shepherds and white boxers but that is another debate). In breeds like the border collie, where there are NO disqualifying faults, colour or otherwise, in the standard and the non showable colours occur quite frequently and are very hard to select against unless you colour DNA test, it is silly to not allow them to be put on the MR. You can have a ee red dog who is allowed to be shown and on the MR but because the ee red masks the expression of other colours he can genetically be a tri chocolate merle which can't. It doesn't matter whether you are involved in the hobby of showing and breeding ANKC dogs (flame suit on) or breeding working dogs to help you earn your living, racing greyhounds etc they should alll be bred with the aim of improving on what you have aready and producing sound healthy dogs. I personally would prefer that there was no such thing as inbreeding but unfortunately it is very much a reality as it is and as you would know, this isn't happening due to breeders concentrating on the colour factor.

If the standard has disqualifying colours such as the toller standard does then breeders shouldn't select for them or they become nothing more tha colour breeders and as tollersowned says there are so few of them that if selected and bred for you will end up with all sorts of other problem due to inbreeding. They can be sold as pets on the LR no problems (except for white shepherds and white boxers but that is another debate). In breeds like the border collie, where there are NO disqualifying faults, colour or otherwise, in the standard and the non showable colours occur quite frequently and are very hard to select against unless you colour DNA test, it is silly to not allow them to be put on the MR. You can have a ee red dog who is allowed to be shown and on the MR but because the ee red masks the expression of other colours he can genetically be a tri chocolate merle which can't. It doesn't matter whether you are involved in the hobby of showing and breeding ANKC dogs (flame suit on) or breeding working dogs to help you earn your living, racing greyhounds etc they should alll be bred with the aim of improving on what you have aready and producing sound healthy dogs. I am all for breeding sound, healthy dogs hence the reason why I found myself in hot water in the past when commenting about a certain subject of which I will not get into. I don't believe in breeding simply for the sake of breeding, I have harped on about this often....i.e. that breeding should be done to better the breed and not for commercial reasons.

Do you not get that some breeds colour IS one trait of the dog? I hope that people like you stay out of my breed, so it can continue to function the way it has for many many years and there is no chance of people trying to make a quick buck by basterdising the breed with inferior quality dogs of disqualified colours. A disqualified colour does not make for an "inferior" dog and it is certainly not a "bastard" either. It's the same in GSD where the occasional white pup appears, most breeders would baulk at that and perhaps opt to cull it but at the end of the day it is still very much a GSD with the same traits and temperament and guard dog abilities as your typical black and tan, for example. That is what I am trying to say....dogs of a disqualified colour can still 'FUNCTION'....THEY may not attract ducks but for those not interested in that field what does it matter? It does when you want people to start breeding just for colour. To retain the colour as it is so infrequent, most of the breedings would be sibling/sibling, father/daughter, mother/son. In the hands of inexperienced "breeders" out to make a buck how will this not produce inferior, unhealthy dogs that will look nothing like Tollers? It is NOT the same as GSDs, they have other colours allowed as well as black/tan. Tollers which were bred for its colour along with its retrieving skills does not! Well seeing as buffs end up in pet homes, then it doesn't matter to the owners BUT to want breeders to start producing this colour for the pet market only and nothing else because you can't better the breed by breeding DQ colours is nothing more than being an unethical BYB. I don't agree with certain colours being bred strictly for the pet market hence that is why I have said that it is about time for the standard to change and allow dogs of formerly "disqualified" colours to become accepted and allowed to be shown esp in breeds where colour is not an issue pertaining to the characteristics of the dog. I have also said that if ever a disqualified colour became acceptable that it be shown with other similar dogs, basically separate from the original accepted colours.

The cavalier king charles. It is laid back and easy-going with a disposition that is truly lovable. Not aggressive and perfect with kids. Can handle a walk but is not demanding of large amounts of exercise as it can self exercise. It does shed no-end but if there are no allergies that should not be a problem, a slicker brush and a bath every week will speed up the shedding process. American cocker spaniels are also great dogs for a family, a little more active than a cavalier but just as lovable.

Australia is the only country that restricts border collie colours and the markings you see in the show ring are purely fashion. BCs have to have some white on them but the patern is not important. Everywhere else in the world they can be any colour and most other countries also accept short coats. That fact that the standard doesn't say "any colour or colours acceptable" suggests that colour has some role to play. I'm guessing visibility while working is part of that equation? I doubt it. I agree with Janba, it is fashion & nothing else. The aust standard does not even make genetic sense! If visibility were a serious & valid factor: cream kelpies would be allowed, since they are the same colour as re red BC's (allowable) other countries would have the same limitations of colour there would not be so many outstanding mostly white dogs both here & overseas same with ears, fashion & nothing else. Just something somebody decided way back when & it stuck :D

Do you not get that some breeds colour IS one trait of the dog? I hope that people like you stay out of my breed, so it can continue to function the way it has for many many years and there is no chance of people trying to make a quick buck by basterdising the breed with inferior quality dogs of disqualified colours. A disqualified colour does not make for an "inferior" dog and it is certainly not a "bastard" either. It's the same in GSD where the occasional white pup appears, most breeders would baulk at that and perhaps opt to cull it but at the end of the day it is still very much a GSD with the same traits and temperament and guard dog abilities as your typical black and tan, for example. That is what I am trying to say....dogs of a disqualified colour can still 'FUNCTION'....THEY may not attract ducks (STILL not convinced of that one, lol) in the case of tollers but for those not interested in that field what does it matter if ducks are not going to take solace in red tollers?

Excellent point. My terriers will never do what they were intended for but I would hate to think someone might be out there wanting a colour not in the standard just because it's 'rare' to have one with pink and green spots and costs a lot more for the fashion conscious who will pay extra for a 'rare' colour. I'll stick with what the standard dictates The standards are all there for a reason. Was Moselle ever a registered breeder? Geez....I seriously hope not......or if they are, that they are in a breed where ALL colours are acceptable :D Yes, I was a reg. breeder of cavaliers.

You seem to be making an exception for colour. I don't. My Whippet will never course hares. Colour is not an issue in his breed but I don't think I should be disinterested in his gait, his topline, his dentition and his soundness because he'll never fulfill his original function. Yes, colour is the only exception that I am making. I too place importance in a dog's gait, topline, bite and soundness. Colour doesn't affect the soundness of a dog.

You're the one who said you didn't give a toss about the hunting side of things Moselle. In some breeds such traits include colour. The fact that you don't think a breeds' original purpose matters doesn't mean that's the case. I can absolutely guarantee in the case of the SBT that colour didn't matter much at all. To see breeders now breeding for it runs contrary to the original purpose and intent of the breed and the breed is suffering as a result. Did you never consider that GRs and Border Collies are the colours they are for a reason? Did I not also say that a dog should retain the very traits they were originally bred for? As I said, there are alot of people who would love for certain colours to be allowed in their breed of dog....and if colour takes away from what a dog was originally bred for...well, that comes down to what the person expects of that dog....if you, for instance, do not intend to take your dog hunting, then you are not going to be too concerned if other colours are allowed in the standard? People who want to use their dog for a particular reason can simply stick to the colours that work best. It should be a personal decision....maybe introduce another standard which allows for other colours to be shown in a class amongst themselves instead of disqualifying them altogether. The only difference would be in the colouring not the traits of the dog.

So we toss out the coat type, the mouth shape, the temperament and any other feature important to duck hunting because its illegal in some States? Get real Moselle. If you don't care about original function why bother with breeds at all. Or is that the point you're trying to make? NO WAY...me said nothing about tossing out mouth shape, temperament or other important feature...just coat colour and only because in my case I don't give two flying fruits about the hunting part of things. I own a border collie and a golden retriever, I obtained them because I love the breed....I never had intentions to use my border collie to herd sheep or my GR to chase after shot ducks! AND you know what? I really don't think they miss not having done any of that. Their tail never ceases to wag. You loved the breed. So you loved what had been developed and refined by HUNTERS over generations but you don't give a toss about all that now. We can forget about what they found important in a hunting dog. OK, so that soft mouth and high bite inhibition so important in a dog that retrieves game. That's not necessary anymore. We can lose that. The GR's lovely soft mouth and nature won't be needed by families with kids - they'll just have to take their chances. These dogs won't be spending all day in the field with strange dogs - so lack of aggression isn't such an issue. We can take our chances with that too. The biddability and trainability in a dog bred to work all day beside and under the direction of the hunter. We don't need that anymore. Intelligence? The dogs don't need to work out how to get to game, how to find it and bring it back. So we can have dumber dogs now. So those who seek the breed out for obedience training or because they enjoy an intelligent dog can take their chances too. That lovely wavey coat that sheds dirt and water? The dog's don't retrieve any ducks now so we can have them with 'incorrect coat'. Fluffy dogs with hard to manage coats will be just fine. You know Moselle, the more I read of your posts the more I can only conclude that you have no genuine understanding of the purpose of setting and adhering to a breed standard. Sadly there are plenty of breeders who feel as you do and the degeneration of breed features and temperament shows that they don't give a toss about the features that actually made breeds what they are. Oh PF, there you go again. This thread is specifically about rare or disqualified colours and no other canine attribute. No way should we breed for dumber dogs as intelligence is most desirable and so is a coat that sheds dirt for certain breeds in particular. Dogs should be able to retain those very traits they were originally bred for. Colour was my only prerogative here and only for those that do not intend to use their dog for the reason they were "invented" for.

Not in my breed, allowing buffs or even the tricolours to be shown has never been brought into dicussion. The reddy orange coat colour of Tollers makes the breed and is essential to it's job. I would like to hope that if a buff ever stood foot in a show ring it would immediately be refused and asked to leave.......though they would never get that close anyway as no breeder would ever sell one on the MR. You are entitled to hold onto that opinion but could it be that perhaps you got so used to seeing reddy orange tollers that any other colour doesn't seem "real" or should I say perhaps does not appear to be purebred even though you know they are ??? Perhaps it is a case of being set in one's ways and becoming accustomed to a particular look. Are you saying that perhaps a buff is not able to hold its own in doing what is expected of it? If you knew anything at all about the breed standards you are talking about, you would know that Tollers were originally bred to resemble foxes as that is the colour that ducks are most attracted to when be lured in closer to shore. So no, the buff colour can not perform its original function. Thanks for explaining that, TO. I suppose that if you are into duck hunting then it is understandable that you are adamant in tollers retaining that colour. Me thinks duck hunting is a NO NO so therefore buff Tollers would be more than acceptable. Don't quite get what you mean in saying that ducks are attracted to foxes and can be lured closer to shore? I am not into duck hunting, not enough time in the world, but I am into retaining the breeds hallmark features and its history. Given that majority of Toller owners over in the USA and Canada still hunting with their Tollers, then colour is still important. Basically, foxes will play around by the shore by frolicking and jumping in and out of hiding. A ducks natural curiosity takes over and comes closer and closer to the fox which eventually is close enough to grab one, there has been speculation as why they do it, but it came clear that they were attracted to reddy orange dog with white flashing feet/tail tip/face markings. There have been reports of hunters with Tollers having ducks get out of the water and basically follow the dog around. The only other breed with a similar function, the Kooikerhondji is also red and white. Coincidence? That the two breeds of dogs with similar functions are the same colours just slightly different markings? Thanks for that info. Just a thought....for those that want to retain the breed's history then why not stick to the original colours and for others that are open to other colours being allowed in the standard but have no interest in pursuing whatever tasks the dogs was originally bred for simply opt for those different colours? Not too many dogs nowadays are used for the reasons intended of yesteryear.

So we toss out the coat type, the mouth shape, the temperament and any other feature important to duck hunting because its illegal in some States? Get real Moselle. If you don't care about original function why bother with breeds at all. Or is that the point you're trying to make? NO WAY...me said nothing about tossing out mouth shape, temperament or other important feature...just coat colour and only because in my case I don't give two flying fruits about the hunting part of things. I own a border collie and a golden retriever, I obtained them because I love the breed....I never had intentions to use my border collie to herd sheep or my GR to chase after shot ducks! AND you know what? I really don't think they miss not having done any of that. Their tail never ceases to wag.