K9Nev

I wouldnt take my dog anywhere that puts us a whole blogg bagging out another local dog training school. A bit arrogent. It's a business and that involve's marketing. What dog trainer / website doesn't make you think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread ? I know i fell for the same marketing from one who has a RAAF background the same as Mark Singer. Marks website is no exception. The comment about having all the solutions of puppy training i don't think is too unexpected from most trainers. In saying that, i don't know Mark Singer, he may very well be a great trainer. I don't think the dog training industry being unregulated is an easy thing to market or for a potential client to sift through all the marketing information from different training establishments and make an informed decision. As I understand it although there are courses and educational learning and certificates that trainers can do, but anyone can market themselves as a trainer and start a business in dog training/behaviourist can't they???. Really, it's a bit hit and miss if you are looking for a trainer even though some have what seem to be legitimate backgrounds, like Corrective Services training or something to that effect, but for all we know, they may have been in charge of the pooper scooper or a kennel hand, it's hard to track that stuff down for authenticity sometimes and you can easy spend a lot of money with someone for little result. On think on both sides of the coin from a trainer trying to market themselves to a dog owner trying to choose a suitable trainer is met with some difficulty and is not as a simple process that it seems Some of the heavily marketed purely positive trainers are a bit of a worry as to how effective their training is over a wider range of dog behaviours as they are often overly method focused than focused upon training results. I don't think anyone markets a full yank & crank style of training that I have seen of late ;) , but trainers that have a negative reinforcement background that have evolved into the addition of positives IMHO have a broader perception of training in general and could possibly cater for a wider range of behaviours more effectively than a single method process.???.

Apologies for taking the OP further off topic (lovely GSD btw!) but those lists don't prove anything other than that some dogs are more naturally biddable than others. You'd hope BCs rank highly for working well for people, how would they rank if it were a test on their ability to excel in dog sledding? Or their ability as a scent hound? All those tests prove is the inability of the trainer running them to motivate and train breeds outside of their limited experience On a side note, beagles rank 72nd on the "intelligence of dogs" list and my beagle regularly works better than a range of other breeds including BCs at our obedience club. Oh and she walks on a loose leash too Once again the perceived intelligence of a breed has nothing to do with it's capability to walk on a loose leash LLW is not difficult to train and a good trainer can have any dog walking on a loose leash within a short training session regardless of breed. From what I have read, the trainability rating is the ease of training amoungst different breeds, meaning some breeds are easier to train than others. Most of those lists although some vary, the Border Collie is usually #1, GSD#2 ACD#3 Lab#4???. I guess we can interpret those lists as we wish That's the beauty of not having a BC huski, at least you can't get called a lousy trainer when you don't have the supposed most trainable breed. When they tell me I have the wrong agility breed, I agree with them ;)

Apologies for taking the OP further off topic (lovely GSD btw!) but those lists don't prove anything other than that some dogs are more naturally biddable than others. You'd hope BCs rank highly for working well for people, how would they rank if it were a test on their ability to excel in dog sledding? Or their ability as a scent hound? All those tests prove is the inability of the trainer running them to motivate and train breeds outside of their limited experience On a side note, beagles rank 72nd on the "intelligence of dogs" list and my beagle regularly works better than a range of other breeds including BCs at our obedience club. Oh and she walks on a loose leash too Once again the perceived intelligence of a breed has nothing to do with it's capability to walk on a loose leash ;) LLW is not difficult to train and a good trainer can have any dog walking on a loose leash within a short training session regardless of breed. Double post, sorry

Thanks nev you made the point I tried to in 4 posts I know I wished at least BH was a prerequisite for Australian Shepherds. Involves no bitework so I dont see what the problem is. I think to be called a shepherd you should need more then just pedigree papers. Absolutely I think the BH is a fine test for pet quality and more really. It may not determine the courage required for a police K9 or security dog, but it certainly demonstartes stable nerve along with an obedience or trainability component. Traffic test, stranger reaction test, handler separation, exposure to a strange dog test, joggers, bicycle, car doors slamming and engine's starting etc etc. The BH tests everything that determines the temperament of a nice pet or painful one with issues that are difficult to re-shape if ever possible. If a GSD can't pass a BH..........IMHO such a dog should be desexed the next day and never bred regardless of it's conformation or pedigree. I prefer a Shepherd that has the lot, but for the most part the majority go to pet homes. The traits that cause a BH failure, are not the traits that are easy to handle and live with for a family pet. Spookiness, separation anxiety and fear aggression etc are easily identified in a BH test where I guess it's why the BH is the "companion animal test" after all The BH can also indicate from the way a dog handles pressure, the potential it may have for greater working ability.

Schutzhund is a more balanced test for a companion animal than ringsport, as some of the components that make up the breeds versatility are missing. Even the Schutzhund BH is a good test to weed out over sharpness and overly defence driven dogs and fear aggression. It's surprising sometimes the faults that the BH test uncovers in some dogs

That's is correct, just a SchH1 now. A few years ago, I think males had to be SchH3???. Great link Nekhbet regarding SV requirements Vast difference between the quality control at world level than other recognised practices

OK this will explain the SV system for people http://home.flash.net/~astroman/requirements.html you only need to pass the BH then Sch1 in order to breed. Ringsport, not really a shepherd thing. Belgian ring is pretty much Malinois dominated. THere is nothing stopping someone taking a young Sch1 dog further into ringsport, but if that is your thing most people I have seen go straight past the GSD. Also pass the Korung (breed survey) for a Kkl rating. Regardless of the Schutzhund title, the breeding stock must be breedworthy in all the other aspects too.

The SV submit to the FCI what the breed requirements will be. The SV is the international breed register and will not hold an untitled dog in their registery over 2 years of age that is allowed to breed or be shown. Registeries or breed clubs with SV affiliation are supposed to follow SV rules. The breed clubs in the USA that are SV affiliated title breeding stock as they do in Germany........not sure what happens in other countries???

LOL a dog pulling on the leash has nothing to do with how intelligent it is I don't know how the trainability lists are rated, but some breeds are considered more easily trained than others. Border Collies usually top that list

Beautiful looking girl Alasse , very nice. People do tend to come under fire a bit using Halti's on GSD's especially I have noticed quite often, I think because the GSD is a highly chosen breed amoungst serious trainers due to their intelligence, versatility and trainability and are regarded as a breed that don't need those types of training props that perhaps a lesser intelligent breed may need???. I have seen many times a dozen dogs pass by a working dog enthusiast wearing a halti and nothing is mentioned, but a GSD on a halti it's like "oh poo" get that silly thing off it's head Halti's and GSD's do often create some unwanted attention what nonsense.the comment has been made for al dogs on a long leash and a halti. people have a view that hatlis can cause damage to a dogs neck regardless of breed. do a search before you make comments about what people have in their minds Only speaking from my own experience Jaxx'sBuddy Take a GSD or Rotty near "most" working dog trainers/handlers on a Halti they will comment negatively about the device guaranteed. Turn up to working dog training with a Halti, you will be made to take it off :D

Beautiful looking girl Alasse , very nice. People do tend to come under fire a bit using Halti's on GSD's especially I have noticed quite often, I think because the GSD is a highly chosen breed amoungst serious trainers due to their intelligence, versatility and trainability and are regarded as a breed that don't need those types of training props that perhaps a lesser intelligent breed may need???. I have seen many times a dozen dogs pass by a working dog enthusiast wearing a halti and nothing is mentioned, but a GSD on a halti it's like "oh poo" get that silly thing off it's head :D Halti's and GSD's do often create some unwanted attention

Yeah, my girl is mostly pretty good at keeping the leash loose by herself, but she occasionally needs a reminder. If she starts to pull for more than a second or so I normally call her back & make her walk by my side in a sloppy heel for a while. Only non-pulling dogs get to wander & sniff things. Cos, you know, I'm a big meany. I generally walk the dogs on the weekend and my wife walks the 3 dogs together during the week, too early in the morning for me ;) so she has 2 GSD's and a Golden Retriever walking out in front. Our older GSD will always pull to the end of the leash after a week of out front walks although drops back with a light leash pop, but keeps doing it. After about 5 times of running out to the end of the leash this day, I stopped, he stopped out front and looked at me and gave him a formal "heearr" command and he circled behind me and sat in position ready for a formal heel. Off we went in a formal heel for about 20 paces and he was perfect there after. Thing is, if we do a formal heel out of the driveway on to the footpath, he's perfect for the duration of the walk. If we don't heel, once we hit the footpath.........he shoots straight to the end of the leash???. If I walk him for a couple of days, we don't need to start with a formal heel and he stays on a loose leash. This is a trained dog who works in reliable obedience off leash, he's quite a reasonable dog. It appears that he gets used to walking out front with the other dogs over a week with my wife and needs that little re-shaping exercise to trim him up again with me

Oh my goodness, then this thread has just started to make a WHOLE lot more sense to me. I was wondering what this mysterious powerful "FAI" body was and how I had never heard of it before! Oops. :D That should be my "oops". Sorry. Brain strain from all the effort against the current spat of laws our notorious Victorian State Government want to bring in . It was this reason also that I didn't take the time to back track to the information I had read up on about GSD Club -vs- Schutzhund. My apologies. Thank you for straightening it out, K9Nev. ;) , It made me think for a second when I saw FAI, then I thought yeah that's it............but there are so many abbreviated dog terms to remember, you get lost in half of them

Which I believe they have resolved by getting VicDogs and Govt to agree that they can import Titled dogs to this State and that whilst the dogs are being exhibited, they are exempt from the "Dangerous Dog" restrictions. Which means to me they are saying that when these dogs are being exhibited, they are not dangerous for their Sch Title but when they aren't being exhibited, they are. And this still resolves their preference to not being required to partake in Sch for the 'bad' that it is, yet herald the fact they have breeding stock that is Sch Titled for the 'good' that it is. Yep - pretty much what you said here, K9Nev : Their way of having cake and eating it too, it seems. It might benefit the breeder enthusiasts for what their goals are and the way they prefer to achieve them, but I can't see how it benefits the dogs. That's the sad bit. I had a feeling when all of this transpired that the ball had been dropped............major fluff up where they realised at the last minute that the imported dogs would come under the dangerous dog description ;) ..........like, what do we do now :D The exemption sounded like the result of an afterthought recovery process to allow titled dogs to be exhibited. That in it's self makes no sense in the legislation that Schutzhund trained and titled dogs are dangerous if they are stable enough not to present a public threat when exhibited at a show. They are either dangerous or they are not, but the exhibition in a public place of a people gathering is the last place that a truely dangerous dog should be. The exemption to exhibit answers the question that essentially the titled dog is not dangerous at all and the whole Victorian issue is completely contradictory and frustrating to say the least

Wow, how good is that Definitely world champion potential from a little girl so young. She did really well, nice dog too :D

Have you tried luring him up with food or toys???. Our little guy balked coming down the stairs and would stand at the top and bark. Food lure didn't work, but chasing his favorite tug toy did and slowly he came down following the tug I was dragging in front of him. Did that a couple of times with a good play and praise when he reached the bottom and he now comes shooting down the stairs like a veteran

I think it's a situation like a copywrite or trademark type arrangement where a body is given the rights to use the breed name as I understood it. The GSD for instance could be bred as they are today, but could not be registered as GSD's. The breed club would have to apply to the ANKC to name them something else in order to be registered???, something along those lines from a legal sense???. The GSD name I would imagine is owned by the SV. Oh really? I kind of assumed that there would be no way to enforce the AnKC not being allowed to use the GSD "name", since it's so hard to enforce international law. But if you are right, then I can see why the AnKC doesn't want to get offside with the FAI. They'd need to call them Australian Alsatians or something. That's how I understand it. It could take 20 years for any action to become of a naming rights situation, but I think the ANKC is bound by the FAI structure. The FAI apply the requirements of the German SV so I guess if a situation like that occurred, the ANKC would have to comply as a link in that chain. What does FAI stand for? I've had a google to learn more & can't seem to find it? FCI it is. Federation Cynologique Internationale. FAI was an insurance company we must be confused with wasn't it

I think it's a situation like a copywrite or trademark type arrangement where a body is given the rights to use the breed name as I understood it. The GSD for instance could be bred as they are today, but could not be registered as GSD's. The breed club would have to apply to the ANKC to name them something else in order to be registered???, something along those lines from a legal sense???. The GSD name I would imagine is owned by the SV. Oh really? I kind of assumed that there would be no way to enforce the AnKC not being allowed to use the GSD "name", since it's so hard to enforce international law. But if you are right, then I can see why the AnKC doesn't want to get offside with the FAI. They'd need to call them Australian Alsatians or something. That's how I understand it. It could take 20 years for any action to become of a naming rights situation, but I think the ANKC is bound by the FAI structure. The FAI apply the requirements of the German SV so I guess if a situation like that occurred, the ANKC would have to comply as a link in that chain. Our GSD registrations don't comply with the FAI as it stands and cannot be entered into a world Seiger Shows or any WUSV events. I remember when Nordenstam Chiller represented Australia in the WUSV world Schutzhund Championship Titles, there was a lot of red tape to go though to have his Australian Pedigree recognised by the FAI. I think Chiller had to be show trained for ring work to get a show rating along with a character asessment to be recognised at FAI level for entry status.

Yes - that's how I understand it. I've had the reasons explained to me, but not being directly involved, I tend to forget some of these things and I would need to hand this over to someone who does fully appreciate the inner workings of the breeds and breed organisations to answer properly. But my guess is that the FAI is held in great esteem (should I say, "the ultimate"?) and to have a GSD acknowledged and recognised by it would be one of the higher marks of excellence reflecting on your breeding stock. I think also there is some "Title" or trophy that GSD owner/breeders would be honoured to achieve, but that "Title" or trophy is under the auspice of the FAI and wouldn't be attainable if you didn't have the qualifying credentials behind you in the first place. I guess. I'm sure I'm being too simplistic in my answer and stand to be corrected for it. That's correct. The German breed survey has a temperament test attached that includes a protection phase as part of the character test. To qualify for breed survey entry, each dog has to have previously gained a SchH1 or HDH herding title to participate. As there is bitework involved in the test, the dog with a HDH would have to be trained on sleeve work to pass and gain it's Kkl endorsement. It's different to a Schutzhund routine in the breed survey or (Korung) they call it, but it's on similar lines and scored the same way.

I think it's a situation like a copywrite or trademark type arrangement where a body is given the rights to use the breed name as I understood it. The GSD for instance could be bred as they are today, but could not be registered as GSD's. The breed club would have to apply to the ANKC to name them something else in order to be registered???, something along those lines from a legal sense???. The GSD name I would imagine is owned by the SV.

Oh really? Fair enough then. I've got to ask though... whose agenda? And why? It doesn't seem to me that schutzhund is much of a threat to the kennel club simply because the kennel club is much larger, much better known, and much better funded (well, it is over here, anyway - I presume it's the same in Oz?) I don't know the intricacies of it all as I'm not involved in the breed, but this is the somewhat simplified summary of how I understand it : The FAI is the German "Mother Club" of GSD's. Their policies dictate that to be able to be recognised by them and to breed, the breeding stock needs to have successfully completed Level III (I think) in Schutzhund (conformation AND character assessment being intrinsically necessary to meet the FAI's standards). Many of the GSD's that are breeding stock and have been bred out here would not be able to meet the standards of this level of Schutzhund, and/or perhaps the people who own these dogs would not have the time to dedicate to such a refined and exact sport even if they were. The argument from here to the FAI has been, in the past, that Schutzhund Sport is illegal out here and on that basis the FAI should not expect or insist on passing the prescribed Schutzhund Level as the "character/temperament" assessment component of their policy. That's been a bit of untruth, I believe, as Schutzhund, especially back then, had not been proclaimed as being illegal here. But it would be easier to be able to by-pass the requirement if Schutzhund Character Assessment requirement if it was indeed made illegal. This is the essence of it and every time it has come up here on DOL, there are many who rise to knock it on its head. I'm even likely to cop a ing for bringing it up here now. But it is the one explanation that makes so much sense. Otherwise, with all the petitioning; explaining; submissions; and so on and so forth, why has it been fraught with so much negativity? And why aren't the Breed Clubs involved, strongly in favour of it? You have heard the same story too Erny, and is what I have been told also on many occasions. Strangely though, the breed clubs although fighting against Schutzhund with great negativity, have an entirely opposite approach when promoting an imported dog and happily flash the dog's Schutzhund title up for all to admire I remain of the opinion that the breed clubs just can't be bothered with the necessity to title their dogs and life is far easier without the added stress of it all

Oh really? Fair enough then. I've got to ask though... whose agenda? And why? It doesn't seem to me that schutzhund is much of a threat to the kennel club simply because the kennel club is much larger, much better known, and much better funded (well, it is over here, anyway - I presume it's the same in Oz?) From what I understand of the situation Staranais, the breed clubs have an alliance with the world controlling body of some breeds and are required to comply with the standards and practices of the controlling body to register dogs recognised as that particular breed. If the controlling body revokes the breed club's rights to use their breed name, they can no longer formally register dogs under that breed and would need to create another dog breed as a consequence. One particular breed that requires a Schutzhund title along with the relevent health and endurance tests to be eligible for breeding and shows, was given an exception from the working requirement in Australia on the basis that Schutzhund was illegal and not supported by the ANKC. When the controlling body found out that Schutzhund wasn't illegal at all, they placed the breed club on notice to comply with the full breeding requirements for the breed which meant, they were going to have to Schutzhund title breeding stock to qualify???. Some how as the situation was unfolding between the controlling body and Australian breed club, Schutzhund was officially banned in Victoria by legislation which is the legislation that the breed club provided to the controlling body to secure their working ability exemption to continue their rights of reproducing the breed. I don't know this for a fact, but there is a strong suspicion of evidence that this breed club was the primary motivator in support that Schutzhund titled dogs were dangerous and provided a major influence for the Victorian government to ban bite related training activity. The bottom line as I see it, is that if the breed club was forced to comply with the controlling bodies requirements, every breeder could only use titled dogs in their breeding practices otherwise their dogs could not be registered with the particular breed name. The "agenda" although there a quite a few imported titled males in this country, there are few if any titled bitches at all. What it would mean, is that they would need to either import some titled bitches to continue breeding, or grab a leash and head down to the Schutzhund club to do some serious training which most breeders I wouldln't image would want the added responsibility of training and titling their dogs, let alone uncover their former breeding stock's inability to comply with the breed standards when failling workability tests. There would be massive repercussion and fallout across the breed if Schutzhund testing was made compulsory which I think is a great motivator to have the sport banned and gotten rid of before this situation has the potential to take place

I have been lectured in the past by a breed club committee person about Schutzhund involvement who was the most uneductated person I have ever spoken to about the sport. I was also shown the club policy that Schutzhund involvement can result in a membership ban or disciplinary action imposed by the executive. The "sleeve" I was told was a mere ploy to fool people that the dog was equipment focused where in fact they were man focused and could unpredicatbly bite anyone for the thrill of mounting an attack. "Our mission" is to promote the good in the breed not the bad I was told??? I drew my own conclusion from that

I have a second cousin who was a miliatry dog handler and went to the Vietnam war bringing his GSD back home. I remember as a kid watching the Anzac day march to see Wayne and his dog in the procession. I don't know what role the dog had but I am sure they came back on a Navy ship from memory???.

Ditto. And if not recognised by the likes of ANKC and Kennel Councils, then at least accepted for the good that they do and not falsely criticised and outlawed. Anti Schutzhund movements IMHO are driven by some Kennel Council's fear that if it becomes formally recognised, it's only one step away from the necessity to train and title breeding stock Banning Schutzhund is the only safe way to make sure this situation never occurs which makes perfect sense as such a necessity would competely turn the breeding and showing fraturnity upside down in termoil for some breeds. I don't think it has anything to do with dangerous dogs and all the negativity towards the sport, it's driven by the fear of being forced to get off your butt to train and title dogs of certain breeds if you want to continue to breed and show them...........I am totally convinced of that But furthermore to this line of thought if Schutzhund became recognised, even if it never became compulsory to train and title breeding stock, some breeders would participate and title dogs to create yet another division in some breeds between who is breeding with titled stock and who isn't. It wouldn't take long before titled dogs had a formal priority over untitled dogs as the titled breedings comply with the world recognised rule book and the untitled do not. It would be a hard argument to win for breeders who don't follow what is written in black and white in terms of testing requirements for breeding to convince people that they are producing quality stock over the one's who follow the requirements completely. That's the way I see the situation for anti Schutzhund movements to make any sense