m-j

Hi

I'm after ideas for stopping dogs barking in the morning as we are letting them out of their kennels to go into the day yards.

They are nearly deafing. They are fine after they are out, just at that very exciting time is the only time they are noisy. To make matters more difficult most of the time there is only one person letting them out.

cheers

M-J

could running close to the rail be a problem in the future, would future speed ability be curtailed (1st race against 10th - experience).

My experience with young (pre-race) greyhounds would make me say yes to running close to the rail as a means to an end is very doggie and greys are very smart, but I could be wrong. In this race the dog didn't get drive satisfaction so maybe not?? With a lot of the things i teach them they only need one experience to get the gist of what I want. As far of their relating to the bad experience in their first race greys even though they can fall to peices at the drop of a hat they have the best bouceback of any breed I have the chance to work with and with most their drive would carry them through a setback like that, they are soooooooo focused when a prey item is presented.

ahhh prey drive

How true, as a dog trainer it can be your best friend or your worse enemy

cheers

M-J

Hi

If all else fails you can have a squeaker in your hand and squeak it when the dog shows some interest in the toy. This is how I have started dogs that are reluctant to play but like the squeak.

My problematic mouth boy sired the recently crowned 2008 Australian national retriever winner.

Ohh another SOS doing well :D making hs owner and his dad's owner very proud I imagine.

cheers

M-J

Hi

I would be going to the vet also or a vet behaviourist, just in case it isn't just your dog maturing. The growling when coming inside is weird, if he does it everytime, surely there can't be something outside every time you bring him in??

cheers

M-J

Hi

The guys i have contacted were David from Chiltern and another from somewhere up Wagga way. Wagga is good as the kennels are between Wagga and Albury. If you can PM me his details I would be grateful, thanks.

cheers

M-J

Hi

This isn't exactly the correct forum but trainers are the ones that use these guys the most.

Just wondering if anyone knows of any muscle men that will travel to do several dogs. I have contacted a couple but times etc aren't suitable. TIA

cheers

M-J

No worries.

cheers

M-J

Hi

Albury and Border Kennel Club do both.

cheers

M-J

There are more complex reflexes, but they are conditioned....kind of along the lines of Pavlov's work with the salivating dogs.

Hi

Long time replying as I have been busy, sick dogs and litter of pups. I can't find my book that has the info on this stuff but this conditioning is the type that would make me reach for my purse as i had to learn that money has value.

I still have a hard time coming t terms with this as actions and drives are governed by emotions. Can't see where the negative emotion for chasing an item would come in unless the dog is restricted from completing the prey drive sequence must find my book and have a read.

Although long winded , it has been an interesting thread.

I do think it is important to learn of operant and classical conditioning, but I certainly do not dissect every behaviour I personally exhibit through the day.

Hi LL

Gosh we would never get anything done if we did

cheers

M-J

until it started heading for the window, so it didn't cause a change in behaviour until that point.

That's true but my motivator wasn't instinctive, the action was, may even be a reflex ie messages get short circuited, my motivator was the possibility of loosing my money, lots of repercussions there, none for the greys if they didn't chase as they know they don't chase for their food.

cheers

M-J

So could it be said in the instance of instinctive chase behaviours that it is too uncomfortable for the dog not to engage in the chase?

It certainly would be if they were restricted, but I really don't think they give it a thought. They have an urge they need to fufill and I don't think that urge is negative they are doing it because at that moment there is nothing else they would rather do. ????

cheers

M-J

this is a new behaviour not a change....?

Yes but isn't making a dog sit when it was standing also? The pups changed their behaviour from soliciting pats, to running after a white fluffy thing. Judging by the reaction I got from a couple this morning they learned that the fluffy thing is fun. So with the right motivator when walking into their pen, I'm in the process of changing of a mindset and increasing the likelihood of a behaviour and extinguishing the pat soliciting and it all started by an instinct that the dogs find intrinsically rewarding.

cheers

M-J

Hi

All learning/behavioural change begins with punishment, positive or negative.

I don't believe so in this case

Yesterday I was getting 3 mth greyhounds to chase a bit of sheepskin for the first time. When I put the skin on the ground they weren't to fussed, they just wanted pats, put a bit of movement into it and that was a whole new ballgame. I believe the motivator that changed their behaviour was an instinct, not a punisher. I can't think of why the movement/start of the chase game would be a punisher, the punisher would be not being able to catch it and that would stop them from bothering to try to get skins moved around by me. There really isn't too much chance of that I'm too slow

cheers

M-J

Hi

She has a lot of activity in her life do you think maybe she could be overstimulated, as she is calm in the back yard?? She may see you as the good time person and you could be her trigger to be up and ready for something to happen??? Some calming exercises like lie on this mat while I watch telly/read a book, may help if this is the case. I'm not suggesting you stop exercising her though just add other calm behaviours to the things you two do. Massage is also good for calming some dogs down.

Eggs are also high in very good quality protein, I know it hasn't affected the other dogs but I do know that different horses need differing amounts of oats to achieve fitness. My dogs went fizzy on me when they were stealing eggs, before I realised what was going on.

Dogs that can't switch off can be a right royal pain in the butt, you have my sympathy :p

cheers

M-J

Just nitpicking.

I wouldn't say nit picking just adding to the disscussion which has gone way OT (sorry LL)

For example, consider a confident young male dog just reaching full sexual maturity, who naturally starts to throw his weight around to see what he can get away with (I think we've all seen this happen!)

Yep I have one at the moment He uses body language first if that is ignored he aggresses. The reasons he loads up in the first place are varied, but is he anxious when aggressing I believe , as he has been ignored, which is not what he likes and it certainly works as the aggro is a very clear message, he gets his desired result. It was the same with my Karabash.

Or how about redirected aggression - if at some point an aroused dog is blocked from displaying predatory behaviour, and in his frustration he redirects onto a companion dog, he'll obtain a reinforcing stress release, and that could result in a dog that learns to deal with frustration by aggressing. Again, no real fear or anxiety involved, merely predatory frustration.

Is the dog still in drive when frustrated???? Prey drive is the quiet attack (stalk, chase pounce) My thoughts are frustration is a form of anxiety as they aren't able to satisfy that drive. I was at a friends shearing shed during shearing and there was 2 kelpies tied in the back of a ute one was going ballistic every now and then it was nipping it's mate, while watching another dog working in the yards. The mate eventually got sick of this and retaliated with a snap and a scuffle ensued. I believe when the scuffle ensued the dog wasn't in prey drive it had switched to defence as prey drive cannot be used in conjunction with any other drive and the dog's demenour had definately changed.

I'd also argue that even if the first aggressive incident in a dog's life was prompted by anxiety or stress, that doesn't mean that later aggression will necessarily be prompted by the dog feeling fear or anxiety. If the dog finds his initial aggressive behaviour to be rewarding (e.g excitement, adrenaline rush, endorphins), then that can lead to the dog actively seeking out occassions to fight even at times when it's not feeling at all anxious or threatened.

If the dog is feeling an adrenaline rush the dog is anxious, I would have thought, as these chemicals are the body's physiological response to anxiety/stress. I asked an old boss of mine Wed night did he get anxious before a fight even one he was fairly certain he could win, as he was a boxer in his younger day. After a lengthy disscussion and he told me he always was to a certain extent, he felt he needed to be to be prepared to go into the ring and give it his best shot, too much anxiety was bad as it wasted energy, not enough and he may have become complacent.

cheers

M-J

To me the trainers didnt own the rewards, the decoy owned the reward and it was the agitation sleave. Hence the dog learned to bite and loved it so much.

No correction would outweigh the reward, as the dog was probably very high drive and very strong nerves.

I have no idea how the prong or the e collar were used.The dog was an operational dog when this incident happened and he was used to winning but he got hurt and that scared him, so next time he was really making sure he won. I didn't go into a great deal of detail with the positive trainer except that he did have strong nerves but his confidence had been shattered. She just helped him regain it. This lady is an expert on stress IMO. We were actually talking about stress and the effects that positive training can have on it at the time and she was using that incident as an example.

cheers

M-J

one guide dog sniffing crotches at the lights instead of paying attention

LOL

Pinching food is one thing I've seen 1 guide dog do, the dog was working and as he walked past a kid who was eating something he swiped it, mum quickly pacified child by promising another and the handler seemed unaware of what had just happened. Another dog was actually lying under a chair in front of me a karate comp (I had been there for about 15 mins) and his handler came along and started reprimanding the dog by checking it about a 7-8 times and as he was doing this the dog's head was hitting the side of a chair. I nearly bit my tounge off, how the dog was supposed to form an association to something that they assumed (as they didn't actually see the dog take the sausage roll it was just missing) the dog had done at least 16mins earlier is a bit of a mystery to me.....but I'm not a guide dog trainer or handler, so really can't comment but it flies in the face of my understanding of timing of corrections.

fear aggressive dogs though i'd have to say to me they are the most wrrying because they seem to fly more easily than a dog that just loves to assert himself and is very confident

I actually prefer fear aggressive dogs, the signs are generally much bigger, unless they have been stopped, and they only attack long enough to remedy the situation, if this dog feels he is unable to take the flight option, whereas a confident dog's signs are generally more subtle. They don't feel they need to take the flight option but if they need to attack it is generally "harder".... like they are saying "and let that be a lesson to you for ignoring my warning".

I also believe that all aggression is anxiety ( which to me is still fear, just at the lower end of the scale) based, with the possible exception of idiopathic and predatory aggression. With dogs that appear to have learned to enjoy aggressing, through success, their initial reason for reacting was anxiety and if it doesn't work for the dog like they think it should, they do get anxious again. One of the laws of learning if a dog that has learned another way to do something/deal with a situation, when under stress they will revert back to their initial learning. I'm guessing it is this law that makes the dog aggress if his critical distance is breached when changing his behaviour using positives or corrections.

just like soem epople find jumping out of a perfectly good plane fun the wrold is a strange place

I with you on this one I am definately not an adrenaline junkie.

cheers

M-J

I have also wondered why guide dogs and police dogs arent positively trained if it were possible.

Now that you mention it I know of one police dog about 12 - 13 yrs ago that while apprehending a criminal got stabbed several times and so did the handler, the dog put the crim in intensive care for 3 days. The fallout from that was the dog wouldn't leave the bite (or whatever the term is for that) they tried a prong collar and then an e collar the dog just went in harder. The dog was in danger of being thrown out of the force so the handler approached a positive trainer to teach his dog to leave, it worked and the dog remained in the force.

cheers

M-J

You can use fight drive to make the dog work

How do you use defence drive to make a dog work? I ahve been told that dogs aren't really receptive to learning if feeling that way.

cheers

M-J

Sue Hogben (Goldie, BCs, tollers)

Aussie Shepherds also. She has OC dogs, as has a friend of mine.

My achievements with the one and only positive dog was Open, with much better results than with my traditionally trained dog. It was harder to proof but the long term results were better and there isn't as much maintenance training is what I have found.

Another thing is the breeds that were traditionally hard to train (bull terriers is one breed I have trained both ways) are a piece of cake to teach with positive motivational methods. I was really convinced to go positive though when I had my Karabash (a rescue) it was a safer way for me to get her to learn something She really didn't like being pushed around initially she had been taught that if i growl (most of her teeth showing) people back of and she wasn't worried about upping the ante if she felt she needed to. She turned into a much loved pet and trusted us completely and we her, I'm pretty sure that would not have been the case if I had continued to traditionally train her.

another example is a CDODC lady that I train with. She got her BC at around 12 mths and has since trained it to UD level - all positive..... in the space of around 18mths - 2yrs I think.

Yep my friend has achieved that with her 2 dogs she has trained using positives. I take my hat off to her for trying as she was also very successful with traditional training.

Most of the dogs that are going through the ring these days as compared to even 10 yrs ago are working much better, particually in the novice/encouragement rings.

Just my humble opinion

cheers

M-J

I have only started but search and rescue is my thing. The dog I am using at the moment is only my practise dog but the little bits we are doing are fun. The thing I have always enjoyed doing most with my dogs is walking them off-lead and watching them doing what dogs do, this is one of the things that attracted me to this disipline and that maybe one day my dog could help save a life. It is very different to anything else I've done and there is alot more to it than I initially thought and sometimes it can be difficult to do the training due to avalibility of equipment like say helecopters, or people to be a victim but I love it

In the past I have played around with obedience trials, tracking, agility and flyball. I also enjoy being an instructor (most times) it is very rewarding to see a problem child get it together and you know you have helped the human / dog bonding process strengthen.

cheers

M-J

Hi

He likes playing that game doesn't he and talk about planting his butt quickly, well done. Gee you look very much like a friend of mine.

cheers

M-J

I agree. For an obedience dog, it will be the trainers fault that the dog is not performing, not the dogs. Any dog can do obedience but not everydog can do more specialised sports that require some form of instinct such as stock work, retrieving, racing etc.

I also agree, I am in the process of rehoming a dog that doesn't have the genetic instinct to do the work I aquired this dog for (search and rescue) People could die waiting for this dog to find them, she doesn't have the drive required to keep looking if the job was tough. She is going to a home where she will be used to visit aged care facilities her temp is very suitable for this type of work and she will love it.

Like you say obedience is a different story, as all obedience is, is natural behaviours that all dogs will do put on cue and performed in a certain way. This is where I would have to say I'm not open minded as a positive trainer I wouldn't want to cross back to using adversives to get the dog to do this as it is something I want to do, not need to. I'm not saying that people who are prepared to do this are wrong/bad (so long as the adversive isn't severe, which could possibly be detrimental in times of stress anyway) just not what I would do.

cheers

M-J

Thanks Perry's mum. My friend just wants a dog that will be useful on their farm, so trialling isn't what she is interested in, but I appreciate you finding that out for me anyway.

cheers

M-J

Hi

Jesomil:

Yep certainly do. Ok so we are mad but happy First the car ...next???? Dog sports they are so infectious

Allerzeit:

I can't believe a lovely girl like Enya would produce a couple of handfuls, they are very cute tho Are you going to Albury in May? I might get to see them then????

Coolibah Coolies:

Thanks that website was very helpful. Found one phone no that may be just up the road, hopefully and a couple that are just a little bit further, fantastic.

cheers

M-J