m-j

There is a money back guarantee, isn't there?

Only on faulty workmanship, if MIL tells you need to get Kal outside and she needs to stay out, this isn't covered........enjoy

cheers

M-J

My puppy had witnessed my dog being extremly unhappy and agro towards other dog (nothing happened apart from some spit and dribble on the window - as the other dog was on the other side of the glass door) but would she learn from that? what would she learn? She was only a witness of an incident

At a guess I would imagine it depends on what Rex got out of it.

If the other dog went I gotta get out of here and Rex was very pleased with that result, she may make a mental note to put that in her bag of tricks when faced with the same type of confrontation , if she feels that it might just work for her, at that moment..... only she will really know but you may find out some time in the future if she did and she feels the need/has the inclination to use it. I also believe you will increase your chances of this happening if she sees Rex achieve the desired result on several occasions, with little or no failures.

Like I said I am only guessing

cheers

M-J

Send her over ..................... NOW!!!!! (errrmm .... does she cook too, by any chance? Tell her to pack her bags and be ready for a long stay .)

WOOOO HOOOOO!!!!!! one mother inlaw coming your way for a loooong stay. She does all of the above and very well too.

cheers

M-J

knowing my dog, if I showed so much enthusiasm to the task at hand, she'd be thinking to not ruin my 'fun' and leave me to it anyway.

If you would like to try model rival training for this I could lend you my mother in law, she has a extremely high housework drive

cheers

M-J

QUOTE(Lablover @ 13th Jul 2006 - 06:56 PM)

Erny, that because our lazy selfish dogs, gain no satisfaction from such human silliness. LOL.

I thought it might have been because she hasn't been trained in "drive".

Or could it be because you weren't trained in drive and aren't showing enough excitment at the prospect of finishing the tasks to tweak her interest

Myszka also if you google model rival training which I think is the same?/similar? to observational learning there are a few interesting sites.

cheers

M-J

Oh so many where do I start...... My latest heart in mouth moment was when running Raj on my pushy along a fire break, I was slack and didn't put him on lead to go past an open gate (which goes onto a busy road, well busy for here) and he ran out of it, he came back when called, but if he had run into a rabbit or a fox I would have had no hope of getting him back.

problem is I didn't teach her a command with the target, or that part didn't sink in, so I can't turn her off.

MS

Start the trick all over again but change cues ie instead of a open hand use a clenched fist, make the presentation of the target clear ie before you present your fist have your arm in a certain position I have my fist resting on my chest and them I present it fast for only a couple of secs, I don't leave it hanging around waiting for the dog to touch it, I bring my fist back up to my chest. When the dog has touched confidently about 4-5 times I add a verbal cue a nanosecond before I present my target. Then I only reward cued touches.

If you do this and reward it lots and ignore all other uncued touches she should stop throwing that behaviour at you. Just some thoughts.

My first attempt at getting a dog to target to a stick went horribly wrong and I ended up with a dog that was sliding her nose up and down this stick with her eyes fixated on the clicker willing it to go, very cute, but certainly not what I was aiming for I have never been able to get a dog to do a duration target with their nose as well again

cheers

M-J

So how do you guys enforce the training requirements?

Good question...... rely on peoples honesty :rolleyes: Like with all the laws now, only the honest will do the right thing,

cheers

M-J

that is something, at least some "regulation

That is great!!, pity the breeder of the Dobe pup I was talking about didn't have the same contract in place, he may have been in another home.

cheers

M-J

The only problem is that when the government get involved with regulating anything they tend to create more problems and take things to extreme levels by only getting advice from the idiots that run the RSPCA.

Yep, that would be the biggest problem!

cheers

M-J

Hi

I know exactly what you mean but it is even worst when the person says to you, "do you think I shopuld get a Dobe pup?" My answer after finding ot how much spare time they had and watching their kids I said NO!!! and gave my reasons and suggested other breeds or an older dog from rescue. Anyway they got the dog and as I predicted the dog at 7 mths was feral. They rang and asked for advise, I told them to come and see me, again I explained the reason, they arranged a time, them cancelled without even coming to once and I have found out since the dog has gone to rainbow bridge :rolleyes: The dogs crime, being a boisterous, uneducated young dog with @#$wits (scuse the french but they deserve this title) as owners. The dog was registered and wasn't cheap, but they didn't care he was annoying.

I have 2 dogs in my yard at the moment a Dobe rescue and A GSD foster both lovely dogs, they have been a little bit of trouble but we are working, managing our way through though these problems. With both of these dogs, I believe if the previous owners had a little bit of doggie knowledge these problems may not have occcurred.

I agree about the licences and mandatory training, I think you should HAVE to do the training for x amount of time and I think they should be also be made to do reviews once a year for a few years, if they don't they should be fined. I believe it would be a great revenue raising exercise if nothing else:))......for rescue groups *ironic laugh*

cheers

M-J

H&C

I have seen food trained dogs mug owners until they learn self control just as a prey driven dogs need to learn self control. I'm not absolutely certain but from the sound of the posts most of these dogs are in the drive building stage and haven't learnt that self control and also the dogs are being very active while doing this and if the handler is a bit slow (or dizzy lol) the dog will possibly hit/ bite the wrong place in their attempt to get the ball, them this is how most of my accidents have happened.

I mean retrieving can increase a dogs drive should we all stop teaching our dogs to retrieve and hide all balls when the kids are home? My Dobe and my Kelpie are fine with my son, although they aren't as highly motivated to get a ball as the dog described in the post, they still will mug a training bag if they can, son has the ball they stand back waiting for him to throw it as he doesn't build drive with them.

I'm sure more injuries have been sustained by kids from dogs guarding food bowls or bones, than have been flattened by a dog in prey drive, looking for a prey item.

cheers

M-J

I agree wholeheartedly, I actually was thinking about starting a similar thread as I have had a few amusing times (on hindsight) with this training in drive, I have a Dobe and have sustained bruises and scratches he scraped one eye and he was so quick I didn't even have time to close my eye, all handler faults.

I was taking Maltese and Dobe for a walk on a one of those windy days that everything goes silly so when I let Dobe off I picked Malt up, tucked him into my jacket with his head sticking out, dobe just wanted to play. Dobe is running around like a fool and he had done about a 6 runs past, on the 7th he was about 5-6 m away and as he was approaching he went into drive (the Malt was the prey item as I had recently started producing item from the front of my jacket) and did this flying leap which I dodged just at the last sec as I wasn't sure what he was going to do. The poor Malt he cacked himself I have never seen his eyes bulge like that. It took about 4-5 times of me turning well before he got to me to actually get him to stop LOL.

I was wondering whether I'm mad for doing this with a Dobe or just mad for doing it, food is much more civilised but not as much fun and you never have amusing stories to tell.

cheers

M-J

Hi

Had a great weekend!!! as per usual. This time was extra special being given the opportunity to watch some wonderful dogs working. I learnt a lot about scent and how the dogs utilise it, thank you to Julie and Andrew.

Thanks to Steve I had a quite a few "duhh of course that's why my dog is doing that" moments, which is the reason we come down to Melbourne:) I met some very nice people and like I said we had a great time, looking forward to the next one

My deepest sympathy to you and your family LL ;)

cheers

M-J

Hi

I have started a new topic as this is going OT, I find talking about stress during training very interesting, I have my own thoughts on it but also love hearing about others thoughts. It is difficult as body language is so hard to describe.

cheers

M-J

m-j, by calming signals, do you mean the yawn when the dog was dropped on the road () after the 'interruption'? Just interested to learn more

yes I did mean the yawn and the lips being licked (all the drops, not only when he was on the road and before the interruption), also a couple of times he briefly looked away as though he thought he had got it wrong. Having said this calming signals don't aways mean the dog has been correction trained, they are just an indicator the dog isn't entirely happy at that moment about something. The tail and ear position were more indicators of a correction trained dog, to me, they were very different when the dog had finished the demo, particually the tail.

Another thing was the fact that the dog dropped while a dog that had just attacked him was a couple of feet away with out so much as a woof even, indicates to me he has been pretty harsh to get that type of complience in that situation ie the dog is more worried about his handler than being attacked by a dog. This is only assumptions made from situations I have witnessed that have been similar, maybe you can get a dog to do that by switching drives from defence to prey (as I think he had a ball in his hand during the demo??) dunno.

I was using the term R+ "loosely" I mean a dog that has been taught to do a behaviour without using compulsion, i.e being moved a into position/place/behaviour by applying physical pressure to the dog, not that this is a bad thing as long as it isn't much pressure and is built on slowly.

hth

cheers

M-J

Also, this dog has been correction trained. As mentioned the dog does not seem "happy".

Anyone else see it????

Yes It seemed quite uptight the ears and the tail and the calming signals while dropped gave it away, plus walking along like it was about to sit at any given moment. I have seen r+ dogs looking like that (in drops) when they first start learning but once they understood what was required they have stretched out and relaxed.

cheers

M-J

Congratulations LL looking forward to seeing pics.

cheers

M-J

I am not sure if these are the answers you are looking for.

Stamp is always looking for work. A glance at him, while I am sitting down, may mean to him something is going to happen or should happen. Ever hopeful LOL.

yes they were very quick questions with me thinking about an article I read on the long term effects of constant stress and 2 dogs that I have owned that were the same always ready for action (as I had a sneaking suspicion Stamp might be) , like you said one glance and they were looking to do something, both dogs were fanatical retrievers. As one of these dogs got older she seemed to get forgetful like she was getting dementia. The article was saying that they thought that Alzhiemers could be caused/aided by an increase in a chemical in the brain that destroys cells in the short term memory part of the brain, but I can think of a few other possible reasons for some of my dogs different behaviour that are probably more likely to be the cause. Just wondering what you had found.

His stress/excitement I feel does affect his working ability, especially with memory. For this reason I try to return to his crate, or tie up area, at least 20 minutes before running in a competition. If possible I try to run him on a few simple retrieves also

I know myself if I'm stressed my memory goes taa taa, like forgetting which is left and right in the trial ring

I am sure he will eventually settle down. Now I am being "hopeful".

LOL.

cheers

M-J

LL

:I worry about the stress Stamp places on himself. I try so hard to calm him down.

Are you worried about him when he is and/or thinks he is going to work? Or is he aways looking for cues that you may give that indicates he is going to do some work? Is this because you are worried about the long term effects of continuous stress? Does his stress affect his working ability? Sorry about all the questions:), but stress is one of my fav subjects.

K9: well there are many, & that whole topic will be covered in the workshops for Training in Drive & the SAR one...

great!!

cheers

M-J

Hi

If your dog targets you could get her targetting a piece of cardboard and gradually make it smaller or place a piece of food in the box and send her to the box when she gets there ask her to sit immediately after she has eaten the food and reward her for that also (starting off very close to the box then you gradually move back). When she is going to the box very fast, you then don't have food in the box but reward her for the sit. When she is flying to the box, spinning around and sitting on one cue, then start your jump work.

hth

cheers

M-J

petmezz

this form of training could be very usfull, i have done a simular thing with my huskys and sledding but deffinatly not to it's full potential. need to learn more

Is that so you don't get to go bush if they see a rabbit or deer etc ?

Have occasionally wondered how that problem would be overcome.

myszka

Jeff - GSD was a dead give away when it rolled on its back when the owner tried to put the leash back on after it finished...

That's a bit sad when you consider the dog had finished working. I was watching the news and the camera happened to be on a service person he did a sudden turn oon the spot his dog (Rotti) hit the deck the handler wasn't even looking at the dog. In my inexperienced mind ( with service dog training) having a dog with that type of mindset could leave moments where the handler and dog are vunerable....no???

cheers

M-J

Its something that you need to see rather than me tell you as such....

Yes, that's the frustrating part I'm not really sure what I'm looking for and it is hard to describe looks/actions.

Maybe you should put out a doggie body language video, I believe that is something the people who do the rounds of the schools to talk on dogs should show. I read an article on dog body language in a school mag that was excellent for kids, one of the things it mentioned that dogs with an upright stiffly wagging tail isn't always saying "hi" Sorry gone way OT here.

LL

I haven't worked out the quote thingy yet either, thought I had

Thanks

cheers

M-J

Hi

Thank you for your replies again. They have helped thin the fog as I have only ever seen the end results of dogs working in drive, never seen the process of building it. I'm one of those people that has to see, do and make lots of mistakes before I get it ;)

I have jad a couple of attempts to reply to this, he joys of children on school holidays and husbands that love ebay

LL

Your dog is trying to motivate YOU going into drive.

Ohh so Rajah is saying c'mon mum let's play dodge the dog, I'm ready :D

then I stand in a certain way with article still hidden and then I give the cue "go" and then present the article nearly simultaneously.

K9: this is re directing the drive by re triggereing & the dogs need to go into init again to complete the excercise...

So does this mean if they offer a sit/ask for drive satisfaction I should build drive ask for a behaviour (gradually increasing duration and amount of behaviours asked for) then give drive satisfaction otherwise they won't increase their drive?..... not, build drive, ask for behaviour, build drive, ask for behaviour, build drive, ask for behaviour, give drive satisfaction, or does this depend on the stage of drive building training the dog is at?

freezing is the dog thinking hard...

It's a good thing one of us is

cheers

M-J

Hi

Love reading this stuff:)

Do dogs have different stages of drive initialisation? When I walk out to training area the dogs are guessing (or perhaps they know cos they can smell it)I have something that is going put them into drive as I hide the article and they are bouncing around, then I stand in a certain way with article still hidden and then I give the cue "go" and then present the article nearly simultaneously. When I stand they usually freeze/offer a sit waiting for the cue/hoping for drive satisfaction (I'm guessing). Is the bouncing around one stage of drive initialisation and the freeeze another or are they the same thing but because I doing different things ie walking then standing all part of drive intialisation? or could the freeze be the dog going into drive?

Hope this makes sense.

cheers

M-J

Once, is that you can teach him to go to his mat/crate/place - whatever - just a particular place, and be calm - for short times at first, and then for longer.

This is good way to teach them to settle down it is the only way my sticky nosed Dobe will settle especially if there is another dog inside. Using this in combination with putting him out if he doesn't want to settle is a good way of getting the message across calm is good, doing the other stuff is not so good.

For the in between times when you can't teach a stay, but you don't want to put him out and if you don't have a crate, you can sprinkle the dry food portion of his dinner around in places where you don't want him to go. This is so that he has something else to do that you don't mind him doing, gradually spread the food further apart so that it takes him longer to find it, he probably will need to learn to look for it if he isn't used to finding food thrown on the ground. When he has got the idea to look for the food, have someone hold him when you sprinkle out the food in another room.

As far as the best toy only your dog can tell you that, just try different things, treat balls or a coke bottle with holes in it (you may need to teach him to roll the bottle/ball to learn that is how the food comes out, not by chewing it ) , kongs, chew toys. Do a google search for dog toys or accessories to see what is avaliable and what you think your dog may like.

hth

cheers

M-J