m-j

People don't usually believe it until they see it...he can get out from very very small gaps.

:rolleyes: Oh I believe you, I had a Karabash (and she was a big Karabash) that got out of a hole about 10"x10" To look at the hole you would have thought no way, if I hadn't seen it for myself Iwould never have believed it.

My dobexshep managed to dig it up, I made the pegs bigger and i crossed them over each other so they were going into the ground in different angles if that makes sense, that fixed him not saying it would have helped yours.

cheers

M-J

The local RSPCA guy here prosecuted some people from Qld and won only 2 yrs ago for selling e collars at the Henty(NSW) field days, according to the local paper.

For another look into e fences go to a search engine and type in Richard Polsky, he has made some good points.

The best thing I have found for keeping digging dogs in is lay some chicken wire flat on the ground up against the fence and peg it down, I make the pegs from heavy gauge fencing wire. The dogs don't think to walk back 2 feet from the fence and start tunneling, but I know dogs will keep digging down if you bury bottom the fence or add to it, under the ground

cheers

M-J

Hi

I used to ride trackwork and we had electric fences everywhere, not quite the same as the fences you are talking about but same principle. We had a horse spook one day and he went straight through it (three electrified wires these fences were designed to keep bulls in and packed a punch). Bluey knew it was there, but at that particular moment it wasn't a concern, for whatever reason (possibly because whatever spooked him was scarier than the fence). We also had horses get out sometimes this is how I found out the fence had a good kick as the first time a horse got out I thought the fence was down NOOOO This is my experience with electric fences. I had one to keep my goats in, they have also got out, but that could have been cos we didn't have enough earths along it.

cheers

M-J

Growling is not a sign of aggression. Its how the dog communicates either thru play, when guarding or when sick etc... You can't say that as soon as a dog growls its being aggressive??? C'mon!!

Very true!!, but what is the dog trying to communicate?

Dogs that growl while playing are communicating, have you ever seen a dog that normally growls with dogs when playing, play with a strange dog, the other dog worries all sorts of things can happen.

A guarding dog is asking the recipient of his growling to come in and have a cup of tea? don't think so.

Most vets that I know treat a dog that is sick and growling with a great deal of respect.

One of the best pieces of training advise I have ever been given is, it is the animals story listen to them.

If you don't listen to what your dog is trying to tell you, he may try to communicate a little louder and take the precursor that little bit further. If you don't want to percieve growling as an aggro you can't deny it is a precursor.

Look, this maybe a one of but do you really want to assume/guess that?

Staffords rule advise about observing is a good idea.

cheers

M-J

If no one gave their experience or opinion when requested here then there would be very little need for the forum.

The majority of questions don't involve dogs growling at kids, with those questions you could tell the owner to fly the dog to China and I couldn't care less, but when it comes to kids that's different

Many of us have experienced such a situation and people here are merely stating what they think may be of assistance. You did exactly the same thing m-j

So have I but I didn't tell gemibabe what I did because her dog might not respond like my dog did. I have heard too many stories I suppose, some coming from people who should have known better, but they treated the dogs growling as nothing, underwent a self planned retraining session (they were dog trainers they knew what they were doing, not) to the kids detriment.

Yes but my advise couldn't lead to a potential disaster if I guessed wrong.

The original poster is not a fool and will take what she considers to be appropriate action. I would say she just wanted to hear what others think about the situation.

I didn't realise you knew gemibabe, what about the guest who is reading this thinks I have a dog like that and tries what has been suggested but because it isn't same dog and handler, different outcome.

She obviously has some queries about her dogs behaviour (smart girl) otherwise she wouldn't have asked on here. When it comes to dogs and aggro precursors and kids you don't assume, you find out for certain!

cheers

M-J

cheers

M-J

at the moment that is keeping him in better position than trying to get him to watch my face

That's what i found with my Maltese I moved the position of my hand and he was instantly in the correct position, I love quick fixes

cheers

M-J

Is there anything in the Obedience Rules that a dog has to focus on your face?

No, not that I'm aware of.

cheers

M-J

Normally I would keep my mouth shut, but I feel this needs to be said.....

It is great that there are people that have taken the time and effort to help somebody else, but unless you know the dog and owner personally and were there at the time, you can't say it wasn't an aggressive act. Giving blase advise on growling/aggression and kids over the internet has the potential to be very dangerous (just my opinion for what it's worth). In my limited experience most kids don't want to train the dog not to growl at them/bite them, they just want to go on with their lives in a stress free environment/home and they should be able to.

Aggression and adults is different 1) they have a choice 2) they should be experienced enough with life to realise that if you play with fire you may get burnt 3) size, strength etc gives them an upper hand over kids. 4) hopefully they will realise once the dog has shown aggressive tendencies they won't think you can go through a retraining program and then rest assured that the dog will never aggress ever again under any circumstance.

Also there may be a medical reason as to why the dog is aggressing, as has been mentioned, a veterinary behaviourist can help with that.

The behaviourist I refer people to is generally $250 for a several hours consult and there will be training with a professional trainer also, maybe , yes that is alot of money to find out that this dog isn't really aggressive, but what price are you prepared to put on your children or someone elses?

How do you think you would feel if you guessed wrong?

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone as I know the advise was given with good intentions but I feel very strongly about this subject.

I'll get off the soapbox now

cheers

M-J

could this just be a grumpy dog at that time of morning???

I sure do hope so...

How do I stop her from growling at him???

I would go and see someone who is reputable and qualified to deal with aggression.

Ask your vet. I know of some good trainers over in WA but no behavioural trainers or behaviourists.

Your dog growled when your son was picking him up and not you, he may feel the kid is a pushover or there could be another explanation. Don't try and fix this yourself so many things can go wrong, with disasterous consequences if you don't really understand what is going on in the dogs head and we are talking about your child/ren, do you really want to take the risk? Imo NOT WORTH IT!!!!!!!!!!

cheers

M-J

Hi

I know you need a dogs attention but wouldn't focus on a hand do just as well? Particually as they are the one of the main body bits that give cues, the thing that I don't want the dog to miss. The only problem is the handler needs to be very aware of what they are doing with their hands.

I believe the looking up comes from the dogs attitude to training (and your attitude plays a role also)and the way it's being trained. I have NEVER taught attention but I get it. So this is why I asked the question, just about everything I have read everyone suggests teaching the dog to look at the owners faces. I can't understand why the face is the thing to watch. Like someone on another list said the amount of times I looked at the teacher appearing to pay attention, but would be off in laa laa land.

With this in mind I work on making myself interesting by being unpreditable as to where, when and how the reward is coming and what it is, food, game, walk, splash in the pool on a hot day, pats, verbal praise, anything they want at that particular moment. With all these treats hands have a great deal to do with the distibution of them so therefore are worth watching.

where the dogs are literally wrapped around the handlers leg. Personally I can't see how that can be marked better when the dogs are actually touching their handler's .

pqm

If you are talking about a trial situation, they shouldn't, points should be taken off for crowding, it could be percieved as a second signal.

cheers

M-J

Hi All

I'm curious, why does a dog need to maintain eye contact? I know why you should have a dogs attention but why should it look at the eyes or face?

cheers

M-J

The problem with holding it in his mouth (holding his mouth closed over dumbell) is that he then really wants to spit it out and then resents the dumbell QUOTE]

No not holding his mouth,

Sorry I didn't explain very well Hold one hand, on one end of the DB and clicker in the other, rest the DB on his teeth for a fraction of a sec, and then you grab hold of the DB again at the same time clicking, before he mouths/spits it.

That is, if he offers you a brief window of opportunity to do this

cheers

M-J

Hi Kavik

My main problem is how to get him to hold it longer? If I let go of the dumbell to see if he will hold it himself, he drops it or throws it. I am afraid if I wait too long and he doesn't decide to hold it longer he will give up and not try to hold it.

Could you hold it in his mouth, let go for a fraction of a sec, leave your hand in the same position, just lift your fingers and no more than a few mm, grab it again and the instantly click it and at the same time take it out of his mouth. Very gradually increase the time you aren't holding the DB for. You will then have to teach him that the fingers / hand moving away from the DB is okay as it will come back grab the DB and you will get rewarded for your efforts. This also has to be done in very small increments.

For me this is the hardest part of a targeted retrieve, getting duration of the hold, my timing isn't good enough to get it without having to go back, fifty times .

I must have inadvertently clicked when he was throwing the dumbell. So now back a few step to mouth over dumbell.

You may not have. You may have clicked while the DB was in his mouth but because he was thinking of grabbing and spitting you, in his mind, have rewarded him for thinking about and doing the grab / spit, maybe.

hth

cheers

M-J

I don't know weather I'll actually try a clicker, sounds a bit strange to me, and, to my mind, you always have your voice! (and in my case food) I've spoken to a few friends, and its interesting in the replys I got, Clicker training relys on good reflexes, which I don't have, so I'll stick to voice and food at this stage

Hi

Unfortunately you have to have good timing even if you are using a bridge word instead of a clicker. I personally don't use clickers, due to the fact I'm a clutz, but they are a lot more effective because it is a unique sound (unless you are at a kids party ) cos we talk to our dogs all the time and if there is something else going on in the dogs mind (like anticipating a reprimand the words become background noise). I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that you maybe going to fast (lumping instead of splitting) holding the dumbell in the mouth and walking with the dumbell are two different things to the dog and the hold needs to be solid before you add the walking criteria to the trick.

When your dog drops the dumbell just ask to hold again and if you think your movement causes ther dfog to drop the db stay still. Increase your hold times by fractions of seconds.

If the dog shuts down on you ask for a behaviour he knows really well reward that and end your training session and try again tomorrow.

hth

Cheers

M-J

It does tell you something though when a trainer spouts terminology and gets it wrong . . . using Pavlov as an example and saying normal training methods use classical conditioning .

OMG now I'm confused, I thought ALL training methods, recall on situations in life happen/work because of classical conditioning, both + and -, for both humans and animals. If not, I have totally not understood everything I've read . My understanding is that dogs learn through OC and repetition, which leads to anticipation (sometimes you don't need many repetitions). I thought anticipation is basically what classical conditioning is, no

cheers

M-J

ImaShepHead

It is a small world. Congratulations. I was right Sunday morning wasn't I? when i said that you had come back today to win :rolleyes:

I am guessing the reason that Sunday's judge had a different approach to the SFE is that she broke her ribs a week and a bit earlier and she had a fair few entries on Sat night so was quite sore afterwards, dunno?

cheers

M-J

BTW In case you didn't notice I thought Enya was a real sweetie. :rolleyes:

cheers

M-J

Vetting this morning was much better.

Hi Trace

Glad you had a good week

end

No she knew i was feeling very sympathetic. :rolleyes:

From the little bit i saw out of the ring to what i saw in the ring you guys were a different handler and dog, how unusual...not :rolleyes: Methinks you should also try to get rid of your nerves (good luck) or train your dog while you are nervous. I used to go to the footy or something like that and train, as I hate people watching me I would became nervous cos I felt like an idiot, but I think it helped the dog understand even tho mum seems like she may fall to pieces at any given moment, it doesn't matter because nothing happens except a training session. Try to make it a really enjoyable session, plus it is good distraction training.

Just some thoughts.

cheers

M-J

Hi

You're not going to Albury are you? If so I'm stewarding but not sure which ring, good luck, your house isn't on the line so it don't really matter whatever happens:)

cheers

M-J

Hi

If that lady is Gina Okeefe I really recommend you go if you are interested in positive motivation. She is very good.

cheers

M-J

He's not a clingy dog and he's also a bird chaser, so I always run through worst case scenerios in my head.

Hi

The thing I have found the best way to get a reasonably consistent off lead recall is reward with high powered rewards nearly every time.

I got my Kelpie in Oct she has a reasonably high prey drive, and she was happy to chase anything that ran or flew, totally oblivious to our attemps to catch her (calling was useless she wasn't hearing), this is in the back yard:) I started to do some recall training gradually building on distractions. On a walk yesterday she came across some running sheep, Roxie took off after them and on one call she stopped so fast her bum came up in the air, she spun on the spot and came back to me, needless to say we had a party, then she turned around spotted a calf and looked at it then looked at me I rewarded then off we went without a backward glance from Roxie. That was a major stepping stone for her I hope it keeps going as we have stock all around here.

Roxie isn't a clingy dog but is very willing to work so is responsive to most cues, except around stock, normally. Up until yesterday she hadn't been put in a position where she could actually chase stock I had only done work on the other side of fences from the animals. I'm so glad I did that work cos those animals were a surprise normally there isn't stock there, so yes you are right to be thinking of worst case senarios and training/managing them because you just never know when they may happen........that's Murphy's Law isn't it?)

cheers

M-J

Hi

I'm sooooooooo envious, I did it in 2002-2003 (didn't complete course due to personal reasons nothing to do with the course) and LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it's not a holiday it is called an intensive because it is. If you have the basics in positive training it will be easier, but is still pretty full on. I was exhausted but very happy after first five days, everybody was really friendly. I made some aquaintences out of it who I run into every now and then at seminars and we "catch up" great fun:))

All the best and I'm sure you'll have lots of fun.

cheers

Mary-Jane

Hi

I was wondering if all the places have gone. I would appreciate some info how much where etc. I'm not absolutely certain I will be able to attend but are interested and will if I can.

cheers

Mary-Jane

Hi

With things that are new to ther dogs and I don't want the dog to react badly I make the dogs impression with that thing LOTS of fun. In this case you could ask your sister to throw HIGH POWERED treats around on the floor the moment she walks in the door. This actually is also helpful with teaching a dog not to jump on kids as if this is done consistently and the treats are thrown behind the dog so he has to turn around and get them, when the dog sees a kid they automaticlly stand back waiting for the treat to be thrown (like a dog wanting it's owner to throw the ball) It worked for my son with my 4 labs and gsd, there is no way he could have got out the door by himself without us teaching that, the dogs would be too busy smothering him with licks

cheers

Mary-Jane Rush