m-j

Just a thought, does anyone else besides me think a nervous owner can make a nervous dog worse? A tight lead I have found a good example.

I definately think so. One of my Labs I was trialling trialled 14!! times before we got a pass. I fixed my nerves and we didn't look back. She never put a foot wrong in training but trial day she was different....or maybe she didn't like the wait outside the toilet, while I was being sick.

cheers

M-J

Yayy the possibility of another seminar I'll come don't care where it is.

cheers

M-J

Thanks for your replies will PM Sardog and check out the website. I thought I would ask here as I knew I it would save me from wading through lots of websites I also would like to be able to help and learn as much as possible.

cheers

M-J

Hi

I would like to become involved in serch and rescue but not really sure how to do it. I fairly certain there are no organisations around here (Albury) that involves dogs, but I'm hoping somone can tell me otherwise or of the nearest organisation to me.

cheers

M-J

Hi

Chook/stock chasing/ killing has been the bain(sp) of my life for many years now have tried quite a few things with various different dogs (mainly dogs that have come in as adults) the most successful thing I have found is to train the dog to focus on you with the chooks around, ie training (shaping) using lots of high powered rewards to build a strong reinforcement history for lack of interest in chooks then go on to variable reinforcement, if you reward the dog when he is looking at the chooks even if 50 m away you are rewarding the dog's intrest in the chooks. Obviously these only work if you are there so I used to go inside and wait for the dog to show no interest and go out and reward (this is very time consuming). This used in conjunction with booby trapping the dogs point of entry to the pen This wasn't successful for me with some dogs as they would just try somewhere else at a later date and I have a huge chook pen so hard to completely booby trap everywhere but was extremly effective with others with less drive. My most successful trap was a pile of cans with a few stones in the bottom (Ian Dunbar) built into a pyramid on a piece of cardboard which had a piece of string attached to it and the other end attached to the fence where dog went into pen dog hits fence/string cardboard tips and it rains noisy tin cans (not good when windy ).

So what I have found is that it takes a better trainer than me to stop all dogs as I was tring to beat/modify hard wiring which can be very difficult and manangement is the most effective way of completely ensuring your chook's safety, unless you can find someway to convince your dog that they should be avoided at all costs at any time. If this takes some time and a few ideas, because you have a high drive dog, I believe you are sort of putting your dog through a desensitising/ counter conditioning program to adversives.

Just some thoughts, hth

Perhaps that should be a post "Worst mistake I have ever made training a dog"

Gee I would still be typing tomorrow :p

cheers

M-J

Hi

This is a good idea.

haven

I'm a size 12 

cheers

M-J

Thanks pippi

I agree HR, I just went and had a look I think I will get it.

cheers

M-J

Hi

Since Steven Lindsay has been mentioned I'm going to do a bit of a high jack and ask has anyone read the 3rd vol if so is it as good as the other 2 and where did you get it from?

cheers

M-J

I still say, better to work in food DRIVE than exchange food fopr compliance, there is a huge difference...

Sheesh and I thought it was that simple What is the difference? How do you tell if the dog is in drive or just looking to swap behaviours for food?

cheers

M-J

Oh, now I feel a bit guilty coz we sort of hi jacked your first post, sorry.

Please don't I probably should have started a new topic:)

I do have people I walk with but the comp obedience, comp anything community is small here. I'm always looking for new ideas as far as training goes and a trip to Melbourne has benefits for the family also. These sound like the type of "class" I would like to attend.

cheers

M-J

When I posted I was actually thinking of a hypothetical class and what would you/people like in a training class What has been suggested is a great idea, unfortunately I wouldn't be able to come on a regular basis because of the distance, but I would definately try to make the occasional one.

cheers

M-J

Informal, for friends and other people who show some interest in having great well behaved happy friendly dogs and all working together to help each other....hey that would be worth doing, worth being a part of!!   

That sounds like a great idea. What sort of things would you think you would like in the class?

LL:

You're not getting old, you just have hindsight.

cheers

M-J

My guess is MJ means a club where the dogs are placed into position physically, receive verbal and physical praise for doing the right thing, and verbal and physical corrections if the command is not followed (once the dog understands what is wanted).

As opposed to a club where dogs are lured/shaped into positions with food/toys, use a food/toy/praise/petting reward.

Yep Kavik got it in one

Sorry I didn't explain properly trainer 47 that's the trouble with trying to explain everything you want to say by typing in as fewer words as possible

cheers

M-J

Oh well what ever

Why not go further and ask me what Koehler would advise for someone in a coma who had an out of control dog? I mean please - can you get any sillier?

Lucky i didn't have that attitude when those people came to me for help and I have helped.

So on one hand, the dog is not capable of 'cunning' (peeing out of spite) and yet on the other hand he IS capable of 'cunning'?

Yes cunning was a bad word to use. It took her 4 mths but she watched her owner learnt why the new training was applied, how he operated, saw a momentory loophole seized the moment (she needed to let those suppressed feelings out) and ran with it, the result a nearly dead dog. Yes I do believe that dogs can work things like that out, we couldn't train them if they didn't.

There is also five paragraphs on housetraining which is almost identical to the advice given today before any mention is made of dealing with those dogs that do not respond to normal housebreaking methods. These methods are preceded by the advice given in the introduction that only in exteme cases as a 'last resort' should these methods be employed.

Putting the dogs nose near it and "spanking with a rolled up newspaper" is not in any more recently published books that I have read, or the advise we give at the compulsion club. There is a difference between teaching the dog by giving it a correction and correcting because you are proofing, the book didn't seem too concerned with this in the front 174 pages. During the learning phase before and after training the dog needs to be locked up so you are percieved as a good guy.

No deprivation for me, the training itself is rewarding. I've lost count of the times I have fed the dogs, then gone and done a training session using food as my motivator and been very happy with the results.

Would you really beat a "revenge piddler" a dog that could have a WHOLE RANGE OF PROBLEMS that a 10 week course using Koehler and going through his house-training regime wouldn't fix in this lifetime or the next

Maybe it's because the mere mention of reprimand turns such people's minds to mush rendering them incapable of reading and understanding something IN CONTEXT

As I have mentioned in a previous post my mind wasn't always mush. I am ashamed to say there was a period of time, when Koehler would have been proud of me. and I do instruct at a compulsion training club (physical ie check chains and verbal corrections/reprimands with praise) my mind can't be too mushy yet.

Koehler knew as well as everybody else that many of these issues stem from boredom which are easily solved through physical and mental exercise - namely training, which provides both.

This is a great idea if you have a lot of spare time, didn't have to work no family to do things for and had the energy to keep up with a very active Kelpie and have only one dog. I prefer to keep them busy with other things that exercises their minds, that I don't even have to be home for, as well as training, exercise etc.

What would you advise a handler who is elderly, or had a stroke or had a neurological disorder so was unsteady on her feet, that owned big youngish basically untrained dogs ? I fail to see how Koehler could help people like these.

Pqm I'm not trying to wind you up.

The Koehler I remember reading did mention praise but the emphasis is on reprimand (why would he have insult the "humanics" it appears he so despises if the books emphasis was on praise).

He appears anthropomorphic in several areas but the one I remeber the best was the "revenge piddler" the dog that, after housetraining, starts eliminating when left alone. The solution, tie the dog near it's mess and give severe and prolonged(there was a lot of emphasis on this I do remember) beatings every 20 mins for how long I can't remeber..... Oh please!!!!!!!!!! What about the other reasons, other than waging a vendetta against it's owner for leaving it alone (this would be laughable if it wasn't so sad), like say a bladder infection, I don't recall any mention of getting this possibility eliminated. Perhaps I remember the bad bits more than the good? bits, cos I'm one of those pathetic "humanics", the people I think you referred to as soft in the head and full of petty insecurities Wasn't always tho.

I have seen the long line technique used ( the book passes over into what I call cruelty on this ) and another dog hung, both failed DISMALLY to the detriment of the these dogs and another that was very badly attacked. The hanging training did work for a short time (about 4 mths) but in the long run had actually made the dog more cunning so therefore quite dangerous, all they did was suppress the outward signs of aggression they didn't completely change her mind. The trainer had been a Koehler advocate, he had used it and had obedient dogs for about 20 yrs of which I had known him for about 5 back then.

I train using no verbal or physical reprimands that are intentionally given by me. I can't physically reprimand the dog as I don't have the dogs onlead when teaching behaviours (except loose lead walking) and I don't verbalise except to give a cue or praise and encouragement. I do set myself up to succeed.

I instruct at a compulsion club (corrections/reprimands verbal and check chains and praise) every second week and at a "positive" school every week. I have had 3 nearly 4 yrs of observing the general differences, as an instructor , 7 more as a crossover trainer after 20 yrs training using compulsion, (not saying I'm a good trainer just that I have had the opportunity over a certain amount of time, to make these observations), between the 2 methods whose motivators are different and I know what I like. Not the stuff scientific research is made of but an observation nonetheless, but each to their own opinion.

As far as terminology goes I must admit I'm not right up on it, but while training I don't think that I'm operantly conditioning the dog and it is operantly conditioning me, or that I'm using P+, P- or whatever, I just train, trying to give the dog/animal the least amount of stress I can.

cheers

M-J

The fact is I train using positive reinforcement, (positive reinforcement is by far the greater part of the method I use) the only difference between the way I train and others train is that I don't confine myself to reward only.

If people stopped dividing methods up between positive and negative (a false dichtomy) then that would certainly open up such discussions along more reasonable lines.

I can't speak for anyone else but you gave me the impression that you trained using Koehler, this is what had me feeling sorry for your dogs, but obviously you don't

Let's face it pure koehler at it's very best would be a bloody awful learning experience. The book is a little too anthropomorphic for me to take what it says seriously. Nothing evokes heated disscussion like the word Koehler, as you know

cheers

M-J

I have a friend used cotton wool balls soaked in a bitch in seasons urine (obviously her dog was an entire male) and I have used a rabbit skin. These may be a bit extreme, but they worked. Don't give up tho i had a client take 12 mths to find what really floated her dogs boat, but boy has that dog improved. It turned out to be a certain brand of devon meat.

cheers

M-J

I just haven't found that million dollar food yet

Hi Corine

Have you tried Kranski or some sort of mild salami type product? Not the healthiest of treats tho. You could also try pairing the favourite game with a bit of food, ie give some food and play his game. If you can do this and do it often enough, the dog starts to percieve the food as rewarding as the game. You would have to establish this before you start using the food as the reward for training or go into class again.

hth

cheers

M-J

Hi Diana

If your dog scrambles up perhaps you could put a wire level with top of fence with a bit of PVC pipe so that she can't get a front foothold on the top of the fence (the PVC will just keep turning), you could even run a wire and pipe along what I'm assuming is probably where she puts her back feet which is probably the bits of wood used to keep the fence together so if run one along there also she won't be able to get a back foot hold either. I have never used this but my friend with a very determined Staffy male has and she thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread.

I personally wouldn't be very keen on seeing my dog fall backwards from six feet but the big wide world is probably much more dangerous.

cheers

M-J

Tashes headcollar hasn't run, but i haven't use it in the rain. Red often does run though.

Yes that's why I asked I have some gear made of the same webbing for my yellow lab and we always find water:)) Might have to be her day out in town apparell:))

cheers

M-J

K9: scoff if you will, there has not been a pig in the sky since I got that phone... (I have the name of the supplier if you like)

Hmmmmm maybe you've been working too hard or something.

Hi Everyone So glad to see a picture of my Tash on here

Karen:

Did the red dye on Tash's head collar ever run and if so did Tash end up with pink stains on her coat?

Jade Lablover:

The picture of Ada nearly bought tears to our eyes as she is very much like a Lab I had that passed away about 3 yrs ago, in boths looks and temperament. She was my hubby's dog, he was very fond of her. One of his mates nicknamed her "the girlfriend" She was a great little dog.

cheers

M-J

So anyway, I was just after opinions and what worked for you.

Hi

Aside from all the above reasons nose rubbing is not the way to go because,

to rub a dogs nose in it is just teaching it to pee/poop wherever the owner can't see it. When a pups gotta go they've gotta go, if they haven't been taught to vocalise or let you know they want to go out (hence one of the reasons to crate the dog when you can't watch it or put it outside), and after many nose rubs they eventually work out that going to the toilet inside makes the owner mad so they hide it.

Do you (not you personally) shove a childs nose into it's nappy to potty train it?

Just a word of advice a friend taught her dog to stand by the door in the lounge and look at them when she needed to go out. This was very effective when they were in the lounge, but not when they were anywhere else, so the dog would go inside, we taught her to bark at the door problem solved. There are other things you can get the dog to do if you don't want the dog/pup to bark.

hth

cheers

M-J

K9: Yes that was another great thing, hard to put logins to names to faces still lol..

Unless the two are the same like mine cos i lack imagination.

K9: HEY! dont tell people Im gentle, it will destroy some peoples stories that I like to rip heads off dogs!   

If I were you I'd be more concerned about people learning that you think your mobile phone stops pigs from flying

*For those who weren't at the seminar this is a seminar joke

Jade:

The photos are great!

cheers

M-J

Ditto to all of the above. It was great putting faces to names. Jade and I had a really good weekend. Thank you for directions we didn't get lost woo hoo .

cheers

M-J