Mystiqview

I know a guy at work whose rotty bitch had a mix breed litter. Accident. He sold the pups to the pet store at 6 weeks, unvaccinated etc for $50 each. The same pet store later was selling them for $800 or so each. Granted they would have had them vaccinated/wormed (not micro chipped as that was not compulsory in Qld then). I can bet most pet stores would not be paying the $75 average person would be paying for vaccinations. What I still find amazing when I am out and about, is the number of people who do not know about registered breeders, don't know that we do the health testing, and that MOST of us do actually care about the health of our breeding stock/puppies. What I find further hard to swallow, is the uppity attitude some of registered breeders when they have been approached an ignorant puppy buyer. Most who I have talked to, have been nice people, ignorant yes, but nice and most cases have been wanting to do the right thing by the dog. The first person they approached had been thoughtless and did not give them the time of day because they were ignorant. They went to a BYB to get their puppy. I know of them and their animals :eek however they are pleasant to talk to and appear to know their stuff etc and are approachable. While I may curse ignorant puppy buyers who want a traditional marked border collie.. I still treat them equally and make allowances for their ignorance, initially. I give them the benefit of the doubt at first. I remember what it was like when I first got into dogs and trying to find someone to point the way

My only thing I can think about re the pet loos is the smell and keeping them clean. Depending on you puppy, they may want a clean area. I have toilet trained puppies here to newspaper as they are on concrete until they leave me at 8 weeks. I know when I have been to animal expos etc, they have had artificial dog stations, and after about the first day, none of the dogs are too keen to use them. (I suppose cleaning will have something to do with it). You could do newspaper, and then move it onto the artificial turf in a box. The only problem I see there, is whether the puppy would see your artificial lawn as no different to the pet loo as it is the same stuff. Especially if they are not liking the smell in the pet loo.

There also seems to be another thread by the OP. Where they laid a deposit down with this breeder in July. What I don't understand is why they think if they take a pup now on their "breeders terms" they will be entitled/expecting to a free or heavily reduced pup in the future??

I think people like the look of CCs, makes a dog look 'tougher'? Think this is a bit too general and far reaching. Granted some may think that. But it is no different to those who want thick/wide leather collars with studs on them. (if you want tough looking that is) Mine are nudies in the yard. Flat collar if I am taking them outside generally and a check chain at training/show. I use snake chains as they do not grab the fur like normal chains. Check Chains, used correctly and properly are no more dangerous, tough or cruel to the animal than any other training apparatus. An ill fitting halter, rubs under the eyes, a flat collar on a pulling dog is no different to a choke chain as it is doing the same thing. A chain goes on my dog right before training, and comes off straight after training. It is my training collar (whether it be for show/obedience) and that is it. Any other time, it is a good sturdy flat collar Training: That is the key to a well mannered dog. I will agree a chain left on a dog unattended is stupid. I have seen some chains on dogs where they have prevented it from slipping into a choke. However if they are caught on the fence, then no matter what collar you use it can choke the dog.

Well here is the email I got today:

I generally wait until 35 days. Allows for a few days grace if did not ovulate until a day or so after mating

I know of a breeder of my breed who has done this to a number of other breeders and have stolen quite a few dogs from them and won't return them to their rightful registered owners. So yeah.. happens all too often to the unsuspecting

Reading through these posts I wonder how you approached these breeders. Did you mention you may want to breed down the track or anything similar? If you did, some breeders could have brushed you off. Particularly where you said all pups are $1800 initially or $2600 for full papers. So what are her pet prices? Surely they would be $1800 and on Limit Register. If you do not want to get into breeding or showing, then you do not need full or Main Registration. I know as a breeder, we cannot keep everything we breed, and sometimes we do need to stash animals into pet homes to keep the lines going. I also would expect and have received myself regular photos of the pup concerned, and details of the contract were discussed well and truely in advance of picking up pup from the breeder/airport. For something like this, I would like at least 24 hours to peruse the contract and think of questions and get advice on what is written in there. True 9/10's is possession. Contracts are also contracts and if it was done correctly, they can technically take them to small claims. I think it is grossly unfair to turn up to a breeder's place when parting with that much money particularly and expect to look and sign a contract. More makes a dog than whether it passes its hip/elbow scores. If has to have the potential for show conformation to begin with. Not all puppies within a litter do. Some are pet quality. They may not have the best angles for showing, they may not have that show pizzazz. These do not make them any less for a companion. I do not believe this is the only breeder around. Sometimes when you enquire, you may have to wait, maybe longer with an uncommon breed. I don't know how long you have been waiting for a Berner? Something just does not feel right. I have co-owned of dogs of my breeding and co-owned dogs with another breeder. It has to be built on trust - for both sides. Please don't rush into this.

In short, they should send you a copy of the "contract" before you turn up there on the weekend. When you do turn up, make sure everything is clear and in writing. In short, you have to be comfortable with what those "breeders terms" are. If there is any doubt, then I would not go through with it. I agree with the others: Breeder should pay for health tests relevant to your breed. Do you pay full price for pup or reduced/free rate general vaccination/worming/day to day care: normally I would say that would be you as part and parcel of normal dog ownership Be very clear on things such as potential stud use - time away from you, duration, who pays for health problems (infection contracted from bitch, or other issues that may occur during mating), stud fees (who gets stud fees, is it 100% breeder or % to you and % to breeder.) Do bitches come to you? etc Also be clear on what happens to the dog at the end of its potential breeding/stud duties. How long are you required to keep the dog whole for?

I find it offensive. I would prefer a dog used on its merit(s). A good dog should not need to be pimped to all and sundry. People know a good dog and through word of mouth they get all the advertising they need.

Oh come on.. Some things like this.. we have to leave as pleasant surprises...

One recent enquiry: I tell people the price of my puppies and what they get (ped papers, worm, vacc, mico chip, puppy pack etc) I do not charge more for colour or male or female. Where some in my breed do. It is often you see black/white $900, red/white or other colours $1000+, just because they are coloured. I remember one add there were also different prices for males/females and colours, including a difference between a blue merle male to a blue merle female. (All pet/limit price). I don't justify my price so much as put it in a way "This is what you get for that price" in the form of health testing, back up reassurance, etc I have found many pet buyers do not know the difference between main/limit register or show/pet. I give 99% of my enquiries the same time. (Apart from the obvious scam ones or asia ones). You do not know how much research they have done - You could be the first breeder they have chosen to contact and do not know our world. You don't want to put them off and send them to a BYB. So I give the first email the benefit of the doubt. I have saved in a text document a structured response that has the essential information about what I do, and what you get by getting a pup from me, health test results etc. Saves me retyping the same information over and over again.

Mia had her puppies last night. 3 Females (two ee red/white, one black/white) 4 Male (black/white) All healthy. All good weights. Got the all clear this morning. some good looking little puppies in there.

LizT, When you consider REALLY about 90% of pedigree breeder puppies end up in a pet home. They MUST be healthy, have GREAT temperaments and be suitable to live socially in the community. Even the bigger kennels who produce more puppies for their sport.. There are many who do not cut the grade and have to go somewhere.. and that somewhere is.. A loving Family.

Red BC, I am not going at you.. but I presume by your handle you have a red/white border collie? The colours are fads. Sorry to say.. There are some ethical and non ethical breeders out there who do breed colours, so if you are looking again for another coloured border collie (or black/white) then please do you homework carefully. There is not only CEA and CL. There is also TNS (Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome) which is like a leukaemia. This kills dogs before they are 6 months of age. There is a DNA test for this. There are still some breeders who advertise their stock as CEA/CL clear but have not done TNS. And likewise for the other two. There is also hip/elbow displacia and OCD of the shoulder. Where her dogs hip/elbow scored? Were her dogs on Main Registration or Limit? The dogs could have been on Limit Registration and yes they would have pedigree papers, however those dogs may have great temperaments, but at the same time did not have the quality to be bred with. IF she did have those dogs on Limit Registrations, did she agree to the breeder she got those off, to desex the dog and didn't? There are ethics there too. It is an understanding with Limit Registration, that owners would desex their animals before their first birthday. (I am sure it used to be on the Qld forms regarding desexing). She may have fed her animals a premium diet, and seemed to know a lot about everything and the breed. At the time as well, you as a new puppy buyer may have thought WOW, but once you start to research the breed start to see holes in what you thought was great knowledge. Even registered breeders don't know everything. Life is about constantly learning. Some lines and dogs carry more issues than just CEA, CL and TNS. A good ethical breeder has a mentor behind them and finds out about those other issues before breeding two dogs together. Some combinations work and some don't. Some dogs you do not double up on too many times in the pedigree unless you are looking for trouble. Many of these BYB and colour breeders will only buy from breeders who have already done the testing and have clear stock by parentage.. Again save money in the bottom pocket because they do not have to continue with the testing of breeding stock. This is particularly an issue in some colour lines. Coloured border collies can fetch more money because the punters want something different to the standard black/white so those coloured breeders charge (or rip off) people for a dog that is not necessarily quality. Just it's colour. Depending on where you live, here in Brisbane, you need to be a member of Dogs Queensland with a Prefix to have the necessary permits with local council to breed dogs. If you don't have those, then you don't get the council local permit. So you are breaking the law breeding dogs in your back yard. The same goes for Moreton and Ipswich councils (and I am sure it is similar for the other councils here). There is a lot more to ethics than just looking after your animals, having the occasional litter and doing the health tests. I would call it ethical to look after your animals to a high quality of living regardless of whether you breed or just have them as companions. Breeding: you are responsible for what you put out there. You need to make sure, what you put out there are healthy, have great temperaments, are good breed examples and a joy to own to both the owner and the wider community. You also have a responsibility to protect the future of the breed. The wrong breeding principles now, will stuff up the dogs of tomorrow. As for the show to breed. That is a bug bear to a lot of people. There are those who used to show, and no longer show: maybe through family commitments or age/injury. There are those who compete in performance activities and breed to that arena. Again they may used to and no longer for the same reasons. It does not mean those people should never breed. IF they don't keep up in the area of their choice, then they should at least keep up with the theory and knowledge of the breed of their choice. All breeders should be able to critique their own dogs fairly and honestly and identify the faults that their animals have and identify the faults and strengths in the dogs they wish to put their animals to. You can generally see the breeders who don't know their dogs and can identify their dogs through the same faults they breed generation after generation. Some faults may take longer to get out, but if it is a major fault like east/west fronts then maybe they should reassess their breeding stock for example.

Technically once the pups left you.. They "were on their way". From the OP, they did not elaborate exactly how on their way they were and what time the would reach their destination. This does not excuse their mistakes, mishandling and poor notifications. While it is sad this happened with you, I am sure all the dog transport companies have made a mistake some time given the volume of animals they transport each day. Still not good and I hope those pups were not too stressed when they arrived. If you are flying with a pup, you can order a crate through any of the dog transport people and also with some airlines and a crate will waiting for you at the freight terminal. IF you have your own crate, then you can also book your dog with your own ticket and drop it off at the freight terminal on the way in.

In a breed as common as Labradores (and in my breed of Border Collies), competition is fierce and spots in breed/show homes are hard to come by because there are so many good dogs around. So there are some very good breed examples out there sitting in back yards as pets. In some cases, I would much rather put a puppy in a pet home where it will be loved no matter what, than in some show homes where if it does not win each time it goes out, they move it on or lock it up in kennel runs. My dogs here are pets first and competition dogs second. One can easily see that by the dog fur on all the couches..... I have covers for the couches.. and at the moment.. I have white and black couch covers...

OW, Show and pet as already explained could be a wrong colour on one foot. In my breed, a blue eye (happens naturally) and has no ill effects to the dog's eyesight is a disqualifying score for breed/show. I know many a breeder who looked at a puppy at 8 weeks and gone OMG how outstanding!!... EXCEPT is has a blue eye and therefore MUST be put into a pet home. Please do not mistake show and pet quality as good and inferior. They may certainly not be. What is rejected by an ethical breeder as pet quality, can and probably is still far better quality to what you get in a pet store or BYB. Many breeders prefer to sell what they don't keep as potential show dogs as pets. I am one. The fact is, we cannot keep everything we breed and many breeders while wanting to run on two or more puppies from a litter to see who is better just don't have the room in their back yard (or permit requirements) to do so. As also mentioned, we do test. BYB and pet shops don't. Many breeders also know of certain issues pertinent to certain lines. Some are minor, some can be more serious. Some issues do not have a DNA test to positively identify carriers of those issues. It is done by selectively breeding dogs known to NOT Have produced it, or not doubling up on certain dogs SUSPECT of producing it. For many years, this was how we worked with CL in border collies until a DNA test was devised. Known carriers were not allowed to be be bred with or doubled up on within a certain 3, 5, or 7 generation pedigree to try to limit the occurrence of the disorder. Dogs were not also allowed to be bred with before 2 years of age as that was when it would generally come to the surface of a dog having the disorder. Guarantee/Warrantee is a hard one to really pin down. I would say it is not like a guarantee from an appliance store if you buy a faulty toaster. Remember you are buying a living, breathing organism. Even despite the breeder's best intentions, efforts and everything else, a pup may fall down to a genetic problem NO-ONE has ever heard before or come down with something that has a chance of occurring 100:1 and you were that unlucky 100th. However most ethical breeders will and DO want to know if their progeny comes down with a genetic issue. They/you may not be able to do anything about it, but information is valuable and it may prevent that combination from happening again (Sire/dam) or identify a new issue within a breed. Ethical breeders do eat, sleep and breath the breed they are involved in. They are continually studying and learning about developments in genetic science, participating in breed clubs and trying to keep their breeds healthy and active and keep new people to the breed honest and as keen as they are about looking after the breed for the betterment and keeping the breed healthy for many years to come. I also suggest starting locally with your breeders. Do some more research and have a look at their dogs, and get to know the breed from the inside. Some of the best and most valuable information out there is sitting inside a breeder's head and not on the internet or picture breed books. Get to know the Brilliant, good, bad and damn ugly of the breed. Go and have a look at the parent(s) [not everyone keeps the sire at home in preference of using an outside dog] of the litter without the temptation of pups there. Also have a look at the parents/pups, even if the whole litter is sold. Again it limits the temptation to buy a fluffy puppy now and makes you go away and think about that breeder and your decision. Really examine what YOU want from your pup. What kind of personality do you want? I think this is the most important, before colour and sex. Do you want a boisterous pup or something more sedate? In some breeds/lines boys can be more sedate than girls and vice versa in other breeds/lines. What is the breeder breeding for? IF they are breeding for working ability and you want a sedate pup, are they the right breeder for you? Again in my breed there are some fantastic breeders who breed for performance and have really good dogs.. But the drive and personality of their animals may not suited to a very laid back household as they will not be able to offer the pup the mental stimulation it requires. IF you breeder has done health testing, I would strongly recommend that you ask to see original relevant paperwork and ask about registrations (Main/Limit) and when do you expect to expect the pedigree papers for your puppy. Do not be alarmed if they are not ready when you pick up your puppy at 8 weeks. Each state has different rules to registering pups. In Qld for example, we can register pups straight into new owners names. so if we are waiting to sell one or two puppies in a litter, we may wait until all pups are sold before sending in the paperwork to our Canine Council. So it could take a couple of weeks before you get your papers. If you have a question whether if they are registered, you can ring the canine council the breeder resides in and ask if they are financial. YOu will not get too much information due to privacy laws, but you should know whether they are financial and if they have sent in the paperwork for the pup you have just bought.

Is the dog getting desexed? If so, can they pay you to desex the dog and it goes to them desexed? Then you would be able to transfer the papers to them without any issue. It will be main reg, but will not matter.

I buy those "pull up nappies" for my bitches when they are in season. I cut a + in the back for the tail. I also lock up my girls for 4 weeks. Not just 21 days of the season. I have had an accidental mating here with my own males on day 20 that took. I aborted that pregnancy (yes she was pregnant) due to her age. Normally that line stands around day 12..

Pretty much. I start doing my temps about 2 weeks out. The last week I start doing twice daily and the last few days before 63 days I do three times a day if needed. I remember one bitch, I took the temp at 6pm, 6am it had dropped and by 6pm it was back up. If you also find out from your girls breeder, when the mother whelped (ie 61 days) that will also be a good guide to look towards. The bitch will not always do the same as the mother, but if the mother and grandmother went at 61 days, that is a good indication to start to be expecting action. I will generally feed the bitch small amounts of lactose free milk or Biolac during whelping in preference to calcium tablets. Nutrigel is also handy if it is a big litter as a boost of energy.

It was. A couple of times there was a mad dash BACKWARDS.. Bad thing about sitting on the cusp of a corner.. But fantastic shots to be had.

Actually, legislation is quite clear: Animal Management Act 2008 There were some regional councils that had further time to comply with legislation, however this Act came into force July 2009. There was an amendment in November last year allowing vets/licensed implanters to implant micro chips before the original 8 week mark. The red section below is what I believe you are referring to, however for everyone else. A dog MUST be implanted before 12 weeks. However I have seen and know of pups from registered breeders for medium to large dogs (including my breed) advertised and not being microchipped prior to sale, leaving it up to the buyer to do. Which is now technically ILLEGAL under current legislation. I know there were breeders when the legislation first came out offering a cash rebate/voucher for a vet to puppy buyers who took the puppy to their vet to be microchipped as when the original legislation came into force, you could not microchip puppies here before 8 weeks of age. (which was a pain in the ASS. In my breed, nothing stopping a puppy from being micro chipped at the 6 week vaccination mark.) 14 Owner must ensure cat or dog is implanted (1) A person who is or becomes an owner of a cat or dog that is not implanted with a PPID must ensure the cat or dog is implanted with a PPID before it is 12 weeks old unless the person has a reasonable excuse. Maximum penalty—20 penalty units. Note— A cat or dog that is more than 12 weeks old on the commencement of this section need not be implanted with a PPID unless it is supplied. See section 13 (Supplier must ensure cat or dog is implanted). (2) It is a defence to a prosecution for an offence against subsection (1) for the defendant to prove— (a) there is a signed veterinary surgeon’s certificate for the cat or dog stating that implanting it with a PPID is likely to be a serious risk to the health of the cat or dog; (b) for a dog, the ownership is to use it as— (i) a government entity dog; or (ii) a working dog; or (iii) another class of dog prescribed under a regulation.

Temperature, temperature, temperature! When the temperature drops SUDDENLY by 1 degree or more, you will have puppies within 12 - 24 hours (under NORMAL circumstances!). Do your temperature twice a day if you can. Say 7am and 7pm or what ever time you decide to do it. If possible maybe three times closer to the day. Depending on your lines, be prepared from any day from day 60. My girls tend to go early around 60-61. Temperature is great, but it can be missed. I use cloth nappies to dry my puppies. Perfect size and easily cleaned for next time. Nutrigel or carnation milk to give to bitch during whelping Brandy to revive pups if needed (and to revive owner). A drop on the tongue will make them gasp for air if you need it. I carefully shake my puppies, I have not used the suction bulb. Oil heater (if you are unlucky enough to have central heating) or something to keep room at even temperature. Heat pads or something similar for the pups that are born Clamps etc for cords. Although most times I pinch the cord about 2 inches away from body and then let mum chew it up to my fingers. I have only had to use the clamps once to cut it as the after birth had gone back inside after pup was clear. But I agree. Having someone there that first time is invaluable. They can see well before we might of problems occurring. Good luck and hope you get plenty of healthy happy puppies

It became compulsory in Qld July last year that ALL dogs and cats MUST be micro-chipped. However I do still see the occasional litter where they are not micro-chipped by Registered Breeders It is also compulsory for ALL surviving puppies in a litter to be registered (either Main/Limit) and come with pedigree papers. Any breeder that is not doing that, I would report them to their relevant CCC body and run as fast as you can AWAY.