dogmatic

JFYI "Mr.Frodo probably one of the best bully produced in Thailand( not for sell )" (BTW, they're not my words - it's the title of the link.) That first image appears to be Mr Frodo at 3 months: http://pitbullzone.com/community/discussion/32151/conan-open-stud-tombstone-cherry-pie-romeo-popeye-....-korat/p1

Looking forward to part 2 from the rat-terrier's point of view. "There I was.. back to the wall.. a giant Husky bearing down on me.." My guess is that there was human intervention at that point (or else a possible tragedy). When I first watched the video, I inadvertently had the sound turned off. I'd recommend it so that your view is not tainted by the commentary. Not saying the commentary is necessarily wrong. Unlike the commentator, I did see the rat-terrier's action as "heroic" when it drew the attention of the Husky away from the little brown dog. Not the smartest thing, but heroic nonetheless. Those sorts of complex interactions do occur in dog-parks.

Some dogs are submissive by nature and they will almost always have their tail between their legs when under the attention of another dog. Many roll over on their backs if they feel comfortable enough to yield completely. But they can find their place in a dog park. Other dogs seem intolerant of this submissive behaviour, but it doesn't always escalate - just a bit of bravado to reinforce the relationship. Some dogs are not submissive by nature, but will submit to another dog in certain circumstances, such as a small dog playing "chasies" with a faster or larger dog and being caught, or as a form of respect to a senior or more powerful friend. Interesting that the rat-terrier appears to step in and save the brown dog from the Husky. I'd be more worried about the Husky's interaction with other dogs.

Thanks everyone. I have heard about vitamin C. After our first close encounter, I asked the vet and she shook her head. I might be wrong, but I think the idea came from horses bitten by snakes years ago. As you can imagine, there would be many situations where it would be impossible to rush a horse to the vet, especially if the horse is the only form of transport for miles around. I just try to avoid taking dogs too far away from civilisation during the the summer. If I did go far away, I'd consider taking a Vitamin C kit. I don't think it could do any harm, even in the larger doses. Carrying a broad bandage for the pressure immobilisation technique is not a bad idea - for dog or human. I don't think it would take too long to apply - that is if the dog is bitten on a limb (which, apparently, is not usually the case). I wonder if it's worth trying to bandage a dog's muzzle? The only good thing I've read about brown snakes is that the first strike is not always venomous. That's what I read. I definitely wouldn't wait around to see if it's true.

Aetherglow, Sorry. I was temporarily distracted by a sudden lowering of the tone of the discussion. Regarding your earlier post... brilliant. You said it so well that I didn't fall of my chair after all. Thanks to melzawelza as well. I learnt a lot.

Thanks for the link, Hockz. However, it does tend to go on and on... and on. So many variables, that it seems easiest for some to simply take an extreme view. I agree with Holmesy, especially how the subject became focussed on one group of dogs which has yet to be adequately defined (AFAICS). However, there have been some sincere posts which I hope other readers might find useful.

Summertime! We had an encounter with a brown snake in the middle of last summer, and another encounter early this summer. Avoidance is a good recommendation, but even the backyard is not immune. I've read about snake-bite first-aid treatment for humans. The pressure immobilisation technique is the current recommendation. http://www.avru.org/firstaid/firstaid_pib.html The suggestion is to send someone else for help if available. Keep the patient calm. It also seems important not to clean the wound so that traces of venom can be used to identify the snake. The pressure immobilisation technique might not be practical in most cases of snake-bites on dogs. Would the best advice be to just forget everything and get the dog to the vets without delay. Nothing else can be done? EDIT: Removed "I've also read that keeping the bite-site above the heart might be helpful." Think I have that topsy-turvy ... not sure.

Nope, no training whatsoever. You can't train people to recognise APBT anyway -study after study has shown that visual breed ID is unreliable when you're looking at an unknown dog. Studies have also shown that animal professionals (Rangers, dog trainers, rescuers, shelter workers, breeders etc etc) not only fail miserably at visually ID-ing dogs of unknown heritage, they also can't even agree with each other on what the dog is. The dog next door to you may have been a pure bred APBT (fairly unlikely) or it may have been a crossed APBT or simply a mixed breed dog which came out with the fairly generic appearance of an APBT. They aren't banned, they're restricted. However the dog has to be either chipped as a pure bred APBT or identified as one through the official channels before they are subject to the restrictions. Thanks for the info. At the time when I became concerned about the treatment and breed of the dog next door - Why would anyone leave a dog chained to a post for most of it's life? Should I offer to take it for daily walks? Would that be safe? - I read some information that said, for example, "It is an offence in New South Wales to sell, acquire or breed dogs on the restricted dog list." To me, a dog that's about a year old must have been acquired after the laws (or rules, or whatever) came into force and therefore there has been a breach. Maybe it's open to interpretation. I'll let the lawyers bash that one out. At the same time I found a template for identifying a Pit Bull and assumed it was used by rangers. Can't find it now. It went into details such as breadth of skull, proportions to muzzle, etc. The dog next door seemed to fit. The template was not exactly something the average person could carry around to determine if a dog is one to be wary of. And that of course leads to another question, "If I am to be wary of such-and-such a breed, how do I identify that breed?" That lack of knowledge is reasonable for the average person in the street IMO, even though it might lead to prejudice against innocent parties. (Personally, I tend to disagree with the idea of painting certain breeds with broad brush strokes. During my year in the dog park, my young GSD was harassed by all sorts, and, like other posters, I'd say to beware of any strange dog.) In any event, I now agree that the neighbours' dog was unlikely to have been a pure APBT. The head ranger, very experienced, saw the dog. The only part of the conversation that I heard was something like, "You've got 28 days..." and "If he's desexed, it costs ... blah, blah". It was none of my business, except to ensure my young and elderly dogs were safe, and to share the concern of the single mother next door with three children under 10 years of age.

I'm in NSW. I thought the rangers were trained to recognise American Pit Bulls. Aren't they listed as banned in NSW? I was actually hoping to steer back to on-topic and away from breed-specific legislation. Oh Well.

Hmmm. Possibly. I just googled images of "American Staffordshire Bull Terrier" and the only one that stood out was one that turned out to be a Pit Pull (less its ears!). http://www.staffy-bull-terrier.com/american_pitbull_terrier_photos Maybe the neighbours had a cross. Thanks.

Yeah. Right. :) I was wondering about the neighbour's dog. No photo sorry. I did get quite familiar with it, and it looked like the one in the photo from wikipedia. Not exactly the same colour though. It was a worry to most people in the neighbourhood - more because of its treatment and a bit of nuisance barking. The council ranger came around, saw the dog and simply issued a notice to register it. The neighbours disappeared before the notice expired and I have no idea what happened afterward. What dogs look very similar to American Pit Bulls? That's all I wanted to know.

Oops. That photo is actually the one from wikipedia, not the neighbours' dog. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull Thanks for the info about "bull arabs". The one I know, I wouldn't call long-coat, but not short smooth coat either - short, slightly soft, wiry coat and a slight beard. She'd be less than thirty kg at 9 months. Must be a different type of dog.

Agree. "Bull breeds" describes a range of breeds bred for completely different purposes. Bullmastiffs, Bulldogs and SBTs are going to be very different behaviourally. The discussion has become very centred on a particular collection of dogs - "bull" something-or-others. Could someone please be more specific with a list of breeds? I haven't a clue, and I'd fall of my chair if someone suggested a snuffly old British Bulldog was somehow related to a Bull Terrier. We lived next-door to a couple who got a puppy the same time we did. As it grew up, it looked increasingly like the American Pit Bull Terrier featured on wikipedia; same ears, same head-shape, same colouration, same size, etc: The council ranger must have thought otherwise and simply gave the neighbours a notice to register it. What breed(s) of dog could it have been? It spent most of it's first year chained to a car-port post. Then the neighbours moved away. I actually liked the dog and tried to care for it. When my young GSD was in season, she was the one who almost managed to tunnel under the paling fence. Next time she was in season, she would bark toward the car-port where the neighbour's dog had lived even though they'd been gone for months. However, when I learnt what a "pit" was, I bought a sturdy pick handle and left it by the back door. Call me prejudiced (but not too abusively)! Also, a regular at the dog-park has a lovely "bull arab" - similar, except a little taller and leaner, slightly wire-haired and slightly bearded. It's toward the submissive end of the scale, but still a playful puppy. What is a "bull arab"? Thanks to anyone for the clarity, because this thread has become filled with "bull" discussions. ;)

Understood, mita. Trying to identify breeds that are more likely to cause harm to another dog. Here's some of my stories which may or may not be of assistance. I have only had GSDs. When one was a puppy, she was attacked - out of the blue - and bitten by a Miniature Schnauzer. Left a nice set of teeth marks on her shoulder. We spent the best part of a year, every day, at the dog-park trying to desensitise her own aggressiveness toward dogs. She was attacked and nipped by a number of border collies and once by a staffy - usually giving chase when I was trying to distract her away from other dogs using her ball. She has also been attacked and nipped by a black curly terrier cross "thing" - again leaving teeth marks. The scariest incident was when a man came through the park with a three-legged dog he described as a "camp dog" from the Kimberleys. He seemed to have it under control, but then it's posture suddenly changed. He panicked, and my hair stood on end. He managed to get it on the leash. It's appearance was that of a multi-coloured dingo cross, I guess. Two Miniature Dachshunds frequented to dog-parks. Of all dogs, they were indeed the most confrontational, in terms of running out from their owners, staring at the other dog, including my GSDs on a number of occasions, and barking their heads off, only to be restrained by their owners picking them up. A particular King Charles Spaniel does the same. Of course this is not seen by anyone in the dog-park as a threat. Another incident was when my older GSD and a tall handsome brindle dog (a breed of bully? trying to find a photo...) had a slight misunderstanding over the ownership of a stick. The GSD has never used her teeth for anything but eating. Nevertheless, she did indicate that she thought the stick was definitely hers. The brindle latched onto her cheek and would only let go after being rolled down an embankment, together with the GSD, and into a creek where its head was held under the water. As the owner of a number of GSDs over the years, I would say to be wary of GSDs for the safety of your dog. Many, but certainly not all, have a desire to dominate other dogs and this can be understandably frightening to another dog's owner. When a GSD gets to know a particular dog, the other dog may become part of her protectorate and there will not be any threat from that point. Usually this happens after a first meeting where the GSD determines that the other dog is not a threat. Unfortunately, it is the first meeting that often causes concern. GSDs do get annoyed at unruly behaviour from other dogs, particularly puppies and young dogs jumping around the place, but the expression of their displeasure is not necessarily something to be concerned about. Nevertheless, be wary. Younger GSDs may sometimes bother elderly dogs, but generally, GSDs seem to show some respect and ignore them. Similarly with toy and smaller breeds. I have not known GSDs to be savage, in terms of sinking their teeth into another dog, but even the most placid GSD of mine had a tendency to roll the Cocker Spaniel from next door - owned by a nun who would apologise and smile. I like the way the GSDs guard me and my yard. While I have tried to reduce their reactivity to other dogs, I wouldn't like to completely break their protectiveness. BTW, the best-behaved GSDs I have owned were never socialised, and I have completely given up on the socialisation theory and dog-parks! I don't know if it did more harm than good, but what a nightmare! Anecdotally, there is one particular large breed that has been known to kill small breeds around my part of the country, usually when they are unattended and have escaped from the owner's yard. That breed has not yet been mentioned in this thread as far as I can see. Rottweiller. At the same time, I used to walk Rotty with my GSDs. Nice dog, and never a problem.

Counter-intuitive? "Oh. Isn't she cute." Grrr... "OUCH!" Eight percent of Yorkshire Terriers and seven percent of Dachsunds show stranger aggression (defined as "Snaps, bites, or attempts to bite). The question is probably similar to the difference between the most venomous snake and the most dangerous snake. AFAIK, there has never been a reported case of a human death from the most venomous land snake in the world (Inland Taipan). I don't know of any statistics for the number of Miniature Dachshunds declared by councils as dangerous dogs. That'd be interesting. :)

There was a recent case in the ACT where a puppy was found to have contracted parvo before it was sold, was subsequently treated and died. The breeder was liable for the vet bills and the costs of purchase. http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/act/ACAT/2013/35.html The circumstances of that case are very different to what is being discussed here, but the case does mention that the mere repayment by the breeder of the cost of the puppy did not terminate the contractual obligations of the breeder. It all boils down to who said/did what when and where. On another note, the Orthopedic Foundation for Animal in the USA states that "Patellar luxation should be considered an inherited disease." http://www.offa.org/pl_overview.html

Jed I was having a dig at the standard. If the rear pastern is perpendicular and the hock-joint is at on end of the pastern, then the pastern can only be directly under or directly above the hock-joint. Luckily the standard specifies that it's under, to avoid confusion in the show ring. LOL. If you start with a perpendicular rear pastern and perpendicular forearms, the natural geometry of the dog should show itself. If the rear paw is too far forward, the rear pastern would slope backward (from the ground up), and if the paw is too far back, the pastern would slope forward. This would affect the angles in the legs and the slopes of the back and croup. I believe there are tricks of the trade to manipulate angles and slopes with a certain degree of force, but I think that a great number of American SLs have a natural tendency toward sickle hocks. I am not sure that the wording of the International (FCI) Breed Standard actually disallows sickle hocks, except to say that the general appearance of GSD should be balanced and have a firm overall structure. The American Breed Standard differs in that the angle at the stifle (knee) between the upper leg (femur) and the lower leg (tibia) should be as close as possible to a right angle. The International Standard says 120 degrees - a significant difference! The American Standard has probably lead to the proliferation of sickle hocks in America, because the more acute angle at the stifle (knee) would tend to lead to a more acute angle at the hock. To their credit, many American SLs display straight backs, and the word "noble" has not been removed from the American Breed Standard. Has anyone seen a noble-looking GSD in the conformation ring in Australia for the past thirty or so years? My link I haven't seen an American SL in the ring, so can't comment on their trotting ability either. However, I have heard that loose ligaments allow the rear pastern to "flip" out, giving an impression of greater rear-extension of the hind legs in movement. This also applies to German SLs, whose bowed backs also seem to allow greater forward extension of the hind legs. That's where I believe the emphasis has gone wrong. A lot of modern breeders poo-poo the "sway backs" of earlier GSDs - some even call them "weak backs". Perhaps they should look at the backs of some of the other breeds in the working-dog class. There is little doubt that Kelpies and Border Collies could outwork the GSD in a paddock despite their "weak backs". Unfortunately, when you say "work" in relation GSDs, there is usually an entirely different meaning. That's another mistake. IMHO.

According to my reading, the back should be straight, with no slope until the croup. Standard again This disallows cow hocks (hind legs are parellel) and also sickle hocks ... it allows for he legs to be set back, but the pasterns shold be perpendicular under the hock joint. How does this equated with all the photos we see of GSD? Unfortunately, Ish, the link you gave is broken Jed The breed standard calls for the rear pastern to stand perpendicular under the hock joint. We'd be in trouble if it was perpendicular above the hock joint. In relation to GSDs, the term "sickle hocks" is most applied in American Showline circles - and rightly so. With the rear pastern fairly upright, the angle at the hock joint is less than 90 degrees such that the stifle (knee) is actually closer to the ground than the hock joint. The standard seems to have overlooked a description for the placement of the far-side hind leg which is placed forward and appears to display a "sickle hock" in many cases. However, it is the near-side hind leg which is placed back, and can thereby demonstrate the "capability" of a GSD to stand with the rear pastern upright and the hock joint at a more pleasing angle greater than 90 degrees, i. e. not "sickle hocked", or not. The photos of early GSDs show a rudimentary "three point stack" which is natural to many GSDs.