bulldogz4eva

Wait a moment - are we going off half cocked? According to this AVA web page we are talking about an AVA policy that was ratified by the AVA in January 1997?

Is this policy something the facists in the Urban Animal Management movement (an unholy alliance of vets and dog catchers) are now trying to push through the Federal Minister for Ag, Fish & Forestry or is the 1st post a furphy?

No I can assure you it is no furphy.What I originaly posted has been sent to all vets that are AVA members as a position paper for their comment before April 15.Once submisions have been received a policy will be drafted and submitted to the government to change the current regulations on importing dogs into Australia.It is no furphy I dont post rumours.

ETA. Just becuase something was rattified in 97 doesnt mean anything other than they discussed it and agreed with it in principle as a group (AVA).Of course it will have to go through the Minister for Agriculture as it is his portfolio that oversees the importation of goods/animals into the country.I had reason to contact him not that long ago about a query and maybe that is peoples best bet to send emails directly to him becuase at the end of the day it is his desk it will eventually come across.

So what is the problem here?

It appears the AVA is calling for a ''deed not breed'' type of policy to be implimented.

i.e., Dogs to be assessed as individuals, not automatically classified, accepted or rejected, simply because of their breed.

Isn't that what the anti bsl push all about?

A similar policy applies to humans wanting to enter the country.

Why shouldn't the same criterior apply to dogs?

Seems like a step in right direction to me.

I think you totally miss the point.they want their cake and eat it too.If there was no bsl then maybe but bsl still stands and now they want to chip away at what is left.Reread what is proposed.It is not just temperament.It states exhibit or carry.What does carry mean?It means the triats that they have as a breed.So if it is breed x y z bred ofr the intended purpose it will carry certain traits.Who deems that inappropriate.SAy dog barks at another dog at the vets while getting its blood taken.Said vet deems that inappropriate and you have done your money.Dog takes exception of strange man sticking cold thermometer up his bum and growls,vet deems that inappropriate you have done your money.Dog barks at someone in quarantine.Vet dems that inappropriate says dog should be deemd dangerous and desexed before release from quarantine.Where does that leave you.i think this is bs.People need to contact their vet and express there concerns before April 15th.

Cross posted from another forum.this policy is currently being drafted by the AVA and is open to comments by veterinarians until 15 April 2011.Anybody who has imported or thinking of importing and owns guardian breeds should contact their vet and make their opinion known.If this is enacted it may be the end of the working dog in this country.Who is going to asses the dogs?Some government know nothing that has no real knowledge of the breed in question.Sad state of affairs.

Importing dogs - behaviour considerations

Position statement

Candidates for importation should be subjected to behavioural assessment as well as physical examination before they are permitted to enter Australia.

Dogs should not be imported if they exhibit or carry behavioural characteristics that may inappropriately threaten the safety of human beings or other animals.

The establishment and enforcement of behavioural standards for all dogs whose owners apply for their importation into Australia is strongly supported. Such standards should also apply to any genetic material imported with assessment of temperament of donors of semen, ova or embryos.

If exceptions are to be made, e.g. for guard dogs, efence dogs and drug detecting dogs, then special conditions should apply to the release of those animals into Australian territories and these animals should be identified as dangerous individuals, in keeping with local state or territory laws.

The Australian Veterinary Association (AVA) calls on the Australian government to effect changes to the importation regulations and permit conditions to satisfy the need for effective behavioural assessment of imported dogs.

Background

Current behavioural restrictions on import requirements for dogs are based on specific breeds. A case-by-case assessment of individual dogs is a more effective means of prenting the importation of aggressive dogs and thereby protecting the community.

Reference

www.daff.gov.au/aquis/cat-dogs

Other relevant policies and position statements

-6.13 Aggression in dogs

-6.15 Breed-specific legislation

The forensic evidence is playing your song.

''It's a staffordshire Bull Terrier''

Isnt that the ring tone on your phone isn't it just incase you forget one day & actually aim up.

Yeah, I know

Fat chance.

Thats right try and deflect from yourself as usual.I know the truth hurts and I thought you would have gotten sick of singing the same song after all these years. Actually my ringtone in case you wanted to know is Tubthumping by Chumbawamba "I get knocked down but I get up again You aint never gonna keep me down" Rather apt really dont you think.

Nobody needs to own a Pit Bull but there are people in the community who love them dearly and as Cesar Milan said to truly appreciate them you have to be loved by one and know how big their hearts are and how much they multiply any love given to them and return it with every ounce of their beings.I am angered and sickened by the amount of poison and venom that is aimed at the Pit Bull by ignorant people who have allowed the media to brainwash them against a lovable breed of dog.

The Pit Bull has been exploited and abused by sadistic members of our society and been demonised by the general public for long enough, maybe if people spent more time reading some of the positive press about this much maligned breed they would feel compassion and sympathy to these beautiful souls

Agree.

I don't have a problem with that.

It is misidentification & misrepresentation of the breed when ever there is an ''incident'' that I have the problem with.

Live & let live.

Just don't put your garbage in my bin.

Is that too much to ask?

I think you best put your bin out for collection as its full to the brim with garbage and spewing over the top. :D

Damn right.

You put it there.

Easy to recognise.

It all generic.

Nothing original.

Yours is full of your own garbage.The same garbage you have been spewing for years grandad.You really cant teach and old dog new tricks.

What if.......the dog owner was not told that there was any issues with the dog?

What if.......the people who sold them the dog did no temperament testing?

What if.......the people who sold the dog only got it the day before it was on-sold?

What if.......

I really want to know what the full story is and where the family got the dog from...until then I am making no judgements except to say this is an awful situation for all and I am so sorry a child was injured.

What if..............they were bogans

What if............. it had always been their dog?

What if..............it was a restricted breed & they were trying save their sorry asses?

Plenty of ''what ifs'' that fit án often played out scenario.

What if... you read the news article Dougie. That's all any of us have to go on.

???

However, I have read the article & more than once. None of it suggests a SBT.

The more I read it the more I am convinced there aren't any more ''what ifs'' that need to be asked.

My ''What ifs'' do have substantial credibility based solely on the article.

Possibly even the truth as a matter of fact..

As I am sure you might come to agree if you just apply a some objectivity.

I have mature male SBTs that occasionally have a falling out. I can hold each at arms length, not without some trouble I will admit & I am neither young nor exceptionally strong anymore.

One would be no problem at all, especially if he were on a leash with the extra leverage that would provide.

Staffordshire Bull Terrier?

Insufficent evidence.

Case dismissed.

So now you are a breed ID expert from across the pond. :D You are a hypocrite in the true sense of the word and then you go on to attack the OP as a purebred hater then post a link to the death of a child.What does that prove?It proves how low you will stoop..You sure are a class act.Good to see you havnet changed your tune after all these years Dougie.Keep drinking the Kool Aid.

Oh and I hope the young boy makes a speedy recovery and isnt traumatised for the rest of his life.i noticed you didnt make comment becuase you care more about your own self serving opinion than anything else and there is no doubt about that.

Nobody needs to own a Pit Bull but there are people in the community who love them dearly and as Cesar Milan said to truly appreciate them you have to be loved by one and know how big their hearts are and how much they multiply any love given to them and return it with every ounce of their beings.I am angered and sickened by the amount of poison and venom that is aimed at the Pit Bull by ignorant people who have allowed the media to brainwash them against a lovable breed of dog.

The Pit Bull has been exploited and abused by sadistic members of our society and been demonised by the general public for long enough, maybe if people spent more time reading some of the positive press about this much maligned breed they would feel compassion and sympathy to these beautiful souls

Agree.

I don't have a problem with that.

It is misidentification & misrepresentation of the breed when ever there is an ''incident'' that I have the problem with.

Live & let live.

Just don't put your garbage in my bin.

Is that too much to ask?

I think you best put your bin out for collection as its full to the brim with garbage and spewing over the top. :D

Thank you for shedding light on the case.Thats why I did not comment becuase its hard to pass comment without the facts.Personally i think it was a bit harsh to give him 8 months but obviously they wanted to make an example of him and dont like to be made fools of.Thats the system.

Then of course there is the alternative when the lies, deceipt & misrepresentation are challenged & laid bare.

The bullying, & that old favourite,

The guilt trip. Sigh.

And then there's geo, who doesn't put any credibility in statistics yet has brought them to the fore, yet again.

Are the SBT listed in your gleefully posted stats all really pure breed SBTs geo? Highly unlikely. Could any possibly be ANKC registered pure breeds? Again, higly unlikely.

Repeat, Xbreeds are not Staffordshire Bull Terriers geo, & neither are pitbulls.

Bulldogs4eva if you reckon the $10,000 price tag is ''crap'', you haven't been ''interested '' in the ''breed'' as long as I have.

Because that is a stone cold fact. And there were many, many column inches devoted to the ''breed'' in all the classifieds at that time.

It was a bogan feeding frenzy.

BTW bulldogs4eva, do you muzzle your pitties when they are outside their required, defined minumum size, childproof pen as required by law?

If you actually have one at all that is?

Besides BD4E, how do know if you have pitties at all?

No one in the country can positively ID them, don't you know?

Shoe on the other foot?

Not yet, despite your best despicable finger pointing efforts.

Matey a little word of advice stop assuming.I have been "in" the breed not interested in the breed long before you so stop the pretence and get down from your high horse before you get knocked down.There have never been pup sold or advertised for that price that is fact.I personally know the origanl importers and the who was who along the way.i will hazard a guess you dont so go back to reading fairytales buddy.I will hazard a guess i have culled more dogs than you have owned becuase unlike you I am not a internet "wiseguy".

You dont need to worry what I do with my dogs as that is my business but you wont see mine on the 6 o clock news so no need to worry becuase i know how to keep them and give them what they need.i have been doing it for a couple of decades so i have it down pat.As for you statements about pitbull owners putting SBT's in the spotlight,I thought that is why you have your registry becuase your dogs are bred to such a high standard and all conform to the standard they are unmistakeable.Arent they?So how could a pitbull be mistaken for a SBT?If the standard is so good that is.The average show Staffordshire Bull Terrier does not resemble a Purebred American pitbull Terrier at all they.These days they look closer to an English Buldog.

Typical bogan speak indicates the answer to the questions is no.

I think you have shown you don't really have clue about the subject at hand. Let alone the problems to over come..

Nor do you have any idea regarding genuine recognised pure breeds.

No such thing as an ENGLISH Bulldog for starters.

$10,000 was correct, despite your claims. Bogan bucks.

Because threats & abuse are typical of your genre is why you & types just like you will be the death of the ''breed'', certainly not the salvation.

Those fighting so hard to convince anyone who will listen that these dogs are a family ''breed'' must cringe when they see what they are up against from within their own ranks. Any wonder the pure breed people are reluctant to become involved. Who would risk their beloved breeds by being seen to be associated with such an antisocial belligerent attitude. What chance do the dogs have?

That will do me, i'll leave you & geo to wallow in your fantasy world.

Good luck to the genuine pitty people, you are certainly going to need it.

Those who would attack me or mine are my enemy.

Something to think about.

Keep spewing your vitriolic and trying to turn the argument around.You never answered my questions either so cut it out with the bogan speak as you dont have a clue what i do for a living and I will almost bet you that I earn a far greater living than yourself so save it.I made no threats the comment I made was metaphorically speaking about your high horse.Obviously it was lost on you.How about having a little intestinal fortitude and answering some questions instead of attacking with mistruths and fantasy.10 k was not correct never was you need to stop smoking wahtever it is you are smoking as i said I have been in the breed for a very long time and know the people who were there from the beginning and you dont.Sorry if that ruffles your feathers.How many American pitbull Terriers have you owned?How many Staffordshire Bull Terriers have you owned?

Oh and just for the record i know what a bulldog is.I use the word English to distinguish them from others just as people use the term English Mastff when they are just Mastiff I call A pitbull a bulldog just as I call an American bulldog a bulldog.I usually call the others fat useless slugs but English Bulldog is generally less offensive.

Then of course there is the alternative when the lies, deceipt & misrepresentation are challenged & laid bare.

The bullying, & that old favourite,

The guilt trip. Sigh.

And then there's geo, who doesn't put any credibility in statistics yet has brought them to the fore, yet again.

Are the SBT listed in your gleefully posted stats all really pure breed SBTs geo? Highly unlikely. Could any possibly be ANKC registered pure breeds? Again, higly unlikely.

Repeat, Xbreeds are not Staffordshire Bull Terriers geo, & neither are pitbulls.

Bulldogs4eva if you reckon the $10,000 price tag is ''crap'', you haven't been ''interested '' in the ''breed'' as long as I have.

Because that is a stone cold fact. And there were many, many column inches devoted to the ''breed'' in all the classifieds at that time.

It was a bogan feeding frenzy.

BTW bulldogs4eva, do you muzzle your pitties when they are outside their required, defined minumum size, childproof pen as required by law?

If you actually have one at all that is?

Besides BD4E, how do know if you have pitties at all?

No one in the country can positively ID them, don't you know?

Shoe on the other foot?

Not yet, despite your best despicable finger pointing efforts.

Matey a little word of advice stop assuming.I have been "in" the breed not interested in the breed long before you so stop the pretence and get down from your high horse before you get knocked down.There have never been pup sold or advertised for that price that is fact.I personally know the origanl importers and the who was who along the way.i will hazard a guess you dont so go back to reading fairytales buddy.I will hazard a guess i have culled more dogs than you have owned becuase unlike you I am not a internet "wiseguy".

You dont need to worry what I do with my dogs as that is my business but you wont see mine on the 6 o clock news so no need to worry becuase i know how to keep them and give them what they need.i have been doing it for a couple of decades so i have it down pat.As for you statements about pitbull owners putting SBT's in the spotlight,I thought that is why you have your registry becuase your dogs are bred to such a high standard and all conform to the standard they are unmistakeable.Arent they?So how could a pitbull be mistaken for a SBT?If the standard is so good that is.The average show Staffordshire Bull Terrier does not resemble a Purebred American pitbull Terrier at all they.These days they look closer to an English Buldog. :rolleyes:

Puhleeeease,

What a pathetic reply,

"Don't bring up all they bad stuff the pitties did to in reply to my denial''.

Hypocrite,

It is obvious you weren't even in the country while this tragic drama played out.

It is obvious you weren't here when it seemed like every other day some innocent was chewed up by a pitbull.

It is obvious you weren't here when citizens buttonedholed their pollies demanding something be done.

It is obvious you don't comprehend that Joe Public not only demanded the BSL, he fully supports it because of the contempt for those JPs displayed by the pitty mob

It is obvious you have no idea of the circumstances that instigated the BSL in this country. Or any other country forr that matter.

It is obvious you don't comprehend that people, the victims, demanded the BSL.

It is obvious you support the misrepresentation of one ''breed'' to the detriment of others.

It is obvious truth, facts & playing fair are not on you agenda.

It is obvious ''we'' still need to watch our back.

For what it's worth, I have watched this drama unfold since the '80s when the pitbull first hit the headlines here as the meanest, fightingest dog on the planet!

Myth upon myth upon myth.

Puppies were selling for $10,000+

Redneck heaven. There wasn't enough puppies to go around.

It is obvious you weren't here then!

It was always a bomb with a wet wick.

Well, the wick finally burnt down, BOOM, the breed self destructed.

The pitty people could have snuffed out the wick at any time. They preferred to revel in the bad ass image.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Ok guess you weren't up to the challenge, guess you never will be. Anyway while you wallow in self "pitty" I'll help the people who're keen on "moving forward" (sorry Julia).

I was in the UK when BSL played out there so I am well versed in it's effects, the victims etc.. so there goes that argument.

Re-read my previous post and try again, if you fail, get back on that keyboard and try again, because i know you can write a nice post.

Don't patronise me.

You are railing against an outcome without knowing the circumstances that brought it to be.

You aren't helping anyone by being in denial & spinning falsehoods, playing to the crowd.

Get out of the way & let the honest people trying to work through this with sensible, rational & open methods be.

Freddy the Fib has no place in the process.

You are only a nuisance.

BTW.

Why was the BSL introduced into the UK & various other places on the the globe at all?

Do you think it is a conspirasy without justification? That the people who have demanded it are just spiteful neville nobodies?

Do you think the the stories of the dog being unsuitable to be in the general population is a vicious rumour started by all those who were mauled by one?

Or did various legislators suddenly declare ''Hey, we have some time to fill in, let's ban a dog breed, put some names in a hat & we will draw one out''

That BSL doesn't work doesn't alter the reasons it was introduced.

The road to failure is paved with good intentions.

BTW2

How could 12 APBTs appear in your stats when nobody in the country can i.d. them?

So much for your stats.

Maybe you should look up patronising and hypocrite in the dictionary.You seem to wear the mantle pretty well.

Look a quick search on google will also show many horrific SBT attacks. I'm not about to drag up horrific memories to serve my own purpose on a forum, I'll leave that low blow to you. Again nothing to do with me or "my people", but more likely a bad owner, and I certainly am not about to blame the parents.

I feel really sorry for you that you have to bring up horrific attacks like that to use those poor victims to prove a point on a forum. A point at which serves no purpose to your cause or indeed your argument.

11 months to December 2008 Freedom of Information: In Brisabne 145 SBT attacks, 13 AST, and 12 APBT. Now these include attacks on dogs. Each incident was thoroughly investigated taking an average of 37 days to complete, and that special care had to be taken especially when a dogs life or fine was on the line.

So by your reckoning none of those 145 SBT attacks couldn't of been by a pure bred SBT or on a person?. Again I'd happily fight these stats on your behalf to prove that it's not the breed but the deed and they do need to be investigated properly to ensure the attack and reasons why are recorded correctly.

The problem isn't responsible owners like yourself and I, but the many BYBers of SBT's, AST's and APBT's. SBT's must surely be one of the most popular breeds in Australia so more needs to be done on getting rid of BYBers, pet shops selling dogs, education etc etc..

Here's a challenge for you Wiseguy;

Post something positive. Try not to sling mud or call names. And thirdly, try to write a whole post without blaming the APBT for everything bad that is happening to the SBT, because it simply isn't true.

Puhleeeease,

What a pathetic reply,

"Don't bring up all they bad stuff the pitties did to in reply to my denial''.

Hypocrite,

It is obvious you weren't even in the country while this tragic drama played out.

It is obvious you weren't here when it seemed like every other day some innocent was chewed up by a pitbull.

It is obvious you weren't here when citizens buttonedholed their pollies demanding something be done.

It is obvious you don't comprehend that Joe Public not only demanded the BSL, he fully supports it because of the contempt for those JPs displayed by the pitty mob

It is obvious you have no idea of the circumstances that instigated the BSL in this country. Or any other country forr that matter.

It is obvious you don't comprehend that people, the victims, demanded the BSL.

It is obvious you support the misrepresentation of one ''breed'' to the detriment of others.

It is obvious truth, facts & playing fair are not on you agenda.

It is obvious ''we'' still need to watch our back.

For what it's worth, I have watched this drama unfold since the '80s when the pitbull first hit the headlines here as the meanest, fightingest dog on the planet!

Myth upon myth upon myth.

Puppies were selling for $10,000+

Redneck heaven. There wasn't enough puppies to go around.

It is obvious you weren't here then!

It was always a bomb with a wet wick.

Well, the wick finally burnt down, BOOM, the breed self destructed.

The pitty people could have snuffed out the wick at any time. They preferred to revel in the bad ass image.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Yes they demanded it alright becuase they were led down the garden path by a government agenda backed by media propaganda.Nothing more nothing less.Puppies selling for 10k each?LMAO.You are full of crap.I have been in them for the laong haul and have never ever ever seen any touted or sold for that price that is utter rubbish.

So I was right about you being a hypocrite. You're ready to tarnish a breed already on it's last legs to save yours. but you agreed with PF's post, that makes you a HYPOCRITE!

I am not that owner in the UK, it hasn't happened here, and it is not every owner! to say you're putting up with this crap time and time again is complete lies and propaganda to protect yourself, look at the big picture.

You'll end up banning AST's as well the way you're going!

I was totally wrong about the lord making the world in 7 days and utterly apologise for my mistake.

Hypocrite?

I thought my opinions were quite obvious, I don't offer sychophantic answers while harbouring contrary ideas.

Tell it like it is. Whether you agree or not.

I played no part in the ''tarnishing'' of a ''breed''. That was completely self inflicted.

What you & your pitbull cronies fail to realise is that rules/ laws apply to everyone, not just those that agree with them

If your pitbull buddies had have complied with the initial rules set down they wouldn't be ''tarnished'' & reviled at all. They wouldn't have to suffer the BSL. They were to arrogant & ignorant to take the tip. Now they have to pay the piper.

They had their chances, they didn't take them.

I don't know how long you have been in the country, but there were horrific incidents involving ''pitbulls'' &, for the most part, children.

Two examples.

A little tacker walking home from school with his sister was attacked & mauled by a pitbull that jumped from the window of a dwelling & attacked him in front of mother. The dog was obviously out of its pen (if it had one) & should have been muzzled. (law)

A little girl was scalped by a pitbull when she approach a neighbours front door selling raffle tickets for her school. The owner opned the door, the dog attacked.

She had her scalp peeled from her forehead backwards toward the nape.

The reaction of people like you? Blame the parents. what sad people, really sad.

The tactic to take the heat off their ''breed''? Your pitbull people then denied their ''beloved'' ''breed'' & began calling them SBTs, xSBTs.

Judas'

I didn't ''tarnish the breed, you & yours did an admirable job of that all by yourselves.

The latest stratagem of course is, ''no one in the country can positvely ID a pit bull''. Pathetic.

And so ''the tarnish '' spreads.

''We'', despite your worst intentions, are endveavouring to prevent it spreading to ''Us''.

Hypocrite?

Look in the mirror.

Instead of posting crap post the truth and refernce you rmaterial if not close your mouth.

Thanks for that geo, I've always enjoyed your responses. And as I watched this topic become increasingly off tangent , I learned you were/are in fact, a bystander - someone who doesn't own a pittie, but sees how it is really just a slippery slope. More non-pit owners should have an open mind like you. Because it's you guys that ultimately feel the pain as well (and have more pull politically).

When one of the tactics of the anti-BSL lobby was to offer governments statistics claiming that other dog breeds were more dangerous, is it any wonder they stood on their own?

I disagreed with those tactics and many others employed. None of them worked but they kept flogging deceased equines all over the country.

I have a very open mind and live in the one place in Australia where its still legal to own an APBT without restriction. I"ll fight to keep it that way but not using the tactics of old.

Absolutely!

Take the B.S. out of the anti BSL fight. Get people onside instead of offside.

It is the only way to be successful.

Wiseguy, it's funny you agree with this (which i do too), yet in another of your posts you said that if an SBT or cross attacks a person then it is a pitbull!! your reasoning being it could never be a pure bred SBT that would attack a human. Therefore you're doing exactly what it is here that you're deploring hypocrite.

Show me where?

Never, ever have I said such a thing. I have not even thought such rubbish.

You should get your facts straight before you accuse anyone of being a hypocrite.

More uninformed drivel.

Will it ever end?

Wiseguy, 24th Feb 2011 BSL forum, page 9 of Hon. D. Boyle Kill amstaffs thread..

I quote. "If the incident involves another dog, I'm sorry the owner didn't keep his stafford under control. If the incident involves a person, I am sorry again the stafford is copping the blame for the deeds of some bogans pitbull".

So if a dog attacks a person that looks like a SBT, your words imply it isn't a SBT but a pitbull...?

Your words not mine. Please explain if this isn't what you mean.

So you did say it, my facts are straight, and IMO you were being hypocritical.

Time after time I'm saying I'll help you and SBT's just post something positive like a solution that we can all get on board with, instead of bloody whinging.

Quite simple really.

I thought anyone with reasonable powers of comprehension would have known.

The SBT victims of these oft reported misrepresentation would have in any case.

Perhaps I have over estimated you?

If a reported participant in a dog on dog incident is SBT, I accept the charge could quite possibly be correct.

Staffords can certainly be dog aggressive. there is not a SBT owner who would deny that.

In the case of anattack incident involving a human, show me the money?

I will bet London to a brick on it isn't a pure breed SBT.

Staffords, real ones, don't randomly attack people. Anyone who genuinely knows the breed would attest to that.

It's just another bogan protecting his sorry ass.

As is inevitably the case when the truth be known.

Kapish?

Recent tragedy in the UK, headline screamed ''SBT kills Grandchild''

Why did the SBT cop the rap?

Because that is what the owners told the press.

when the truth was known it was the poor little girls uncles ILLEGAL pitbull.

What do you call them over there? chavs?

A little kid pays the ultimate price for a morons fantasy.

But the lowlifes initial claim?

Was

Of course.

''He's a Staffordshire Bull Terrier''.

That is crap we have to put up with time after time.

And we have had enough.

'' and the good lord above created the world in 7 days..!!!''

6 days geo.

He rested on the seventh.

Wrong again pardner!

Join the club now you know how we feel every time there is a reported attack that is not correct.Funny when the boot is on the other foot isnt it and you wonder why you gain no favor.

Thanks for that geo, I've always enjoyed your responses. And as I watched this topic become increasingly off tangent , I learned you were/are in fact, a bystander - someone who doesn't own a pittie, but sees how it is really just a slippery slope. More non-pit owners should have an open mind like you. Because it's you guys that ultimately feel the pain as well (and have more pull politically).

When one of the tactics of the anti-BSL lobby was to offer governments statistics claiming that other dog breeds were more dangerous, is it any wonder they stood on their own?

I disagreed with those tactics and many others employed. None of them worked but they kept flogging deceased equines all over the country.

I have a very open mind and live in the one place in Australia where its still legal to own an APBT without restriction. I"ll fight to keep it that way but not using the tactics of old.

Absolutely!

Take the B.S. out of the anti BSL fight. Get people onside instead of offside.

It is the only way to be successful.

Wiseguy, it's funny you agree with this (which i do too), yet in another of your posts you said that if an SBT or cross attacks a person then it is a pitbull!! your reasoning being it could never be a pure bred SBT that would attack a human. Therefore you're doing exactly what it is here that you're deploring hypocrite.

Show me where?

Never, ever have I said such a thing. I have not even thought such rubbish.

You should get your facts straight before you accuse anyone of being a hypocrite.

More uninformed drivel.

Will it ever end?

Wiseguy, 24th Feb 2011 BSL forum, page 9 of Hon. D. Boyle Kill amstaffs thread..

I quote. "If the incident involves another dog, I'm sorry the owner didn't keep his stafford under control. If the incident involves a person, I am sorry again the stafford is copping the blame for the deeds of some bogans pitbull".

So if a dog attacks a person that looks like a SBT, your words imply it isn't a SBT but a pitbull...?

Your words not mine. Please explain if this isn't what you mean.

So you did say it, my facts are straight, and IMO you were being hypocritical.

Time after time I'm saying I'll help you and SBT's just post something positive like a solution that we can all get on board with, instead of bloody whinging.

That is exactly what he means.Deflecting the blame the same as he accuses us of doing.

Thanks for that geo, I've always enjoyed your responses. And as I watched this topic become increasingly off tangent , I learned you were/are in fact, a bystander - someone who doesn't own a pittie, but sees how it is really just a slippery slope. More non-pit owners should have an open mind like you. Because it's you guys that ultimately feel the pain as well (and have more pull politically).

When one of the tactics of the anti-BSL lobby was to offer governments statistics claiming that other dog breeds were more dangerous, is it any wonder they stood on their own?

I disagreed with those tactics and many others employed. None of them worked but they kept flogging deceased equines all over the country.

I have a very open mind and live in the one place in Australia where its still legal to own an APBT without restriction. I"ll fight to keep it that way but not using the tactics of old.

Absolutely!

Take the B.S. out of the anti BSL fight. Get people onside instead of offside.

It is the only way to be successful.

Wiseguy, it's funny you agree with this (which i do too), yet in another of your posts you said that if an SBT or cross attacks a person then it is a pitbull!! your reasoning being it could never be a pure bred SBT that would attack a human. Therefore you're doing exactly what it is here that you're deploring hypocrite.

Show me where?

Never, ever have I said such a thing. I have not even thought such rubbish.

You should get your facts straight before you accuse anyone of being a hypocrite.

More uninformed drivel.

Will it ever end?

EDIT.

To those who came in late.

BSL was not a sudden event. It was the final act of a long playing trilogy.

Pitbull owners in NSW had their chances to avoid the spectre of BSL. They ignored the warnings.

Then they became the targets of the volatile mix of a fed up, irate public & a politician trying to deflect heat from his lame duck administration.

They gave Bob Carr a chance to appear like he was doing something, & he took it.

After ignoring the chance to retain their dogs, to continue breeding, selling, trading for the sake of proper confinement & muzzles in public they were left screaming their tits off when the hammer fell.

You can't really feel a lot of sympathy for people who spit in your eye.

What happened in one state is not the same for the rest of the country yet every "State premier said We are just coming into line with the rest of the country".If that doesnt smack of conspiracy I dont know what does.Keep drinking the kool aid brother.

Speaking of ACT, poodlefan: Does the ACT have any dog bite statistics (I know, dreaded statistics!) that are available to the public? As you said, as the only state where APBT can be owned without restriction, I'm sure they have the most accurate breed identification (and subsequent stats) of any state. It would be nice to send those stats off to councils of other states to show them how well things are going in a state without BSL. Clearly, you guys have been doing something right down there to avoid the tide that's swept up the rest of the Eastern States.

I'm not sure the ACT is better at breed ID than anywhere else. Its just that no dog's life hangs on the process.

We're a Territory - only about 300,000 folk. About 42,000 dogs I believe.

Bite stats? I've never looked into it. I don't think there's much publically available but I might dig around.

Yes and as i have said before that will change.Dont get me wrong i dont want to see it happen but it will happen in time.Tasmania fell and the NT and ACT will too dont fool yourself it wont.

My current boy is 19 inches on the dot. There are plenty that are definitely far bigger. For me, any difference of more than 10% is too much. Regardless of breed.

What is the judge supposed to do with open ended standards?

Bull Terriers are same.

No gazetted height or weight limits.

At least the AST standard does stipulate a ''preferable'' height with proportional weight.

Judges should at least start at ''preferable'' & work from there.

''Preferable'' doesn't necessary guarentee success of course. There are many other features to consider.

So what to think about the UKC APBT standard with 100% differential in the weight?

Sorry, couldn't resist the opening.

Maybe lobby for some change and consistency.'Preferable height with proportional weight' What a joke,if thats not open ended I dont know what is.Your post reeks of hypocrisy.

Thanks for that geo, I've always enjoyed your responses. And as I watched this topic become increasingly off tangent , I learned you were/are in fact, a bystander - someone who doesn't own a pittie, but sees how it is really just a slippery slope. More non-pit owners should have an open mind like you. Because it's you guys that ultimately feel the pain as well (and have more pull politically).

When one of the tactics of the anti-BSL lobby was to offer governments statistics claiming that other dog breeds were more dangerous, is it any wonder they stood on their own?

I disagreed with those tactics and many others employed. None of them worked but they kept flogging deceased equines all over the country.

I have a very open mind and live in the one place in Australia where its still legal to own an APBT without restriction. I"ll fight to keep it that way but not using the tactics of old.

Absolutely!

Take the B.S. out of the anti BSL fight. Get people onside instead of offside.

It is the only way to be successful.

I agree and probably about the most useful thing you ever said.

Thanks for that geo, I've always enjoyed your responses. And as I watched this topic become increasingly off tangent , I learned you were/are in fact, a bystander - someone who doesn't own a pittie, but sees how it is really just a slippery slope. More non-pit owners should have an open mind like you. Because it's you guys that ultimately feel the pain as well (and have more pull politically).

When one of the tactics of the anti-BSL lobby was to offer governments statistics claiming that other dog breeds were more dangerous, is it any wonder they stood on their own?

I disagreed with those tactics and many others employed. None of them worked but they kept flogging deceased equines all over the country.

I have a very open mind and live in the one place in Australia where its still legal to own an APBT without restriction. I"ll fight to keep it that way but not using the tactics of old.

I dont know that was the case.Quoting supplied statistics to me was only to prove the hypocrisy not to deflect the blame.Claiming others are more dangerous isnt the right way I agree and maybe I have been guilty of it however facts are facts and theirs didnt stack up.it was an agenda that was never going to be won becuase of it.If it becomes an issue for governemnt they will make that issue go away but whatever they deem necessary to deceive the public.that is government the world over.

Proves they are the same breed. Amen.

Have i said anything to the contrary? I did ask you to read rep628's earlier post on this, to which i agree.

Funny that as mentioned by rep628 working GSD's in Germany are the only GSD's worth breeding, same breed as their show counterparts but very different. Though i do believe that many AST's (AKNC) would be more than capable of earning working dog titles, not just agility.

It's funny cause i thought you were of the opinion that the AST is it's own breed, so far removed from the APBT that it should be recognised as it's own breed and not subject to BSL, (which it shouldn't be, same as the APBT shouldn't). yet you call it the true APBT (how can it be if it hasn't been worked for 75 years)

In that case.. should anyone calling their dog true APBT only have the right to do so if they're game bred fighting dogs from old fighting blood lines? which would mean that there are very few about and that all of our APBT's are in fact AST's ?as they've been bred for family pets, show dogs, shutzhund etc..

Yet you flamed Kylie Chivers for bringing the good name of the AST down by saying it was the same breed as APBT, yet you believe her!! and are saying so publicly therefore further denigrating the AST in your own words!

pot this is kettle, are you black? why no sir i'm a very very dark shade of grey mixed with black that in the eyes of many i look completely black but i don't believe it..

The portions of rep628s posts that I am cognisant with are not a proper representation of the truth. IMO.

Similarly, with your continued distortions of what I have posted, I can only suspect they are merely further nefarious attempts to distort the truth for some sort of a illconceived agenda that I can't fathom?

Çhivers case?, better if read what was actually said. Which has scant resemblance to what you have just claimed.

Also I would much prefer if you are to quote me at all, at least have the good grace to quote in the entirety &/or in context. Your dishonesty is shameful.

Until you embrace facts rather than fallacy you will remain part of the problem, not the solution.

If the ANKC registered GSDs are so bad as to be discounted as working dogs I wonder why the Police & rescue organisations only accept ANKC registered GSD puppies from ANKC member breeders?

How would you ever get the opinion I thought the AST & APBT were seperate breeds? Just another example of your duplicity.

You should try honesty for a change, it doesn't hurt.

I can attest to that.

You are the one that needs to embrace the truth and it just might set you free,becuase at the moment you are the one who is in denial.

As fro the police only accepting registered purebred GSD also not fact.The WAPOL have a GSD rottie cross as a service dog so it obviously ticked all the boxes.

I haven't been a member long enough to read anything that was ''all over the forum''.

I did read a recent post which indicated the Qld government was formulating new legislation relating to dog laws & the poster was very apprehensive as to the content. Really concerned in fact.

That you are blaming the ANKC for being compliant with the Qld government in this tragedy is typical of the deceipt & misinformation I deplore. You are typical of the genre. Dodge all responsibility, blame anyone & everyone. Doesn't matter who. Shift the blame at any cost.

That really is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

That no one can positively identify a ''pitbull'' would only seem to demonstrate they couldn't possibly be pure breeds.

Seems strange these same people can ''positively'' i.d. a Staffordshire Bull Terrier in the mix though. Or that one isn't a ''pitbull'' but an Amstaff. How would they know that if they don't know what a pitbull looks like in the first place. Deary, deary me. Oh what a tangled web we weave.......

It would appear the Chivers judgement hasn't been appealed or overturned (?) Which would mean it is still on the books, a precedent. Just festering away. Waiting, waiting.

I would hope the GCCC is truly showing common sense & applying deed not breed to their apparently new found M.O. & not biding their time for a new legislation to be gazetted.

I also hope the ''we don't if it's a pitbull'' owners don't relax & let themselves be compromised by thinking all is forgiven.

Heres a plan.

If there isn't anyone who can identfy pitbulls, they could at least employ ACOs who can identify SBTs & ASTs.

Because if they can genuinely i.d. those breeds, they can also exonerate them.

Remembering of course that Xbreeds aren't pure breeds & should not be identified as such.

So, by the process of elimination.....

I have always advocated proper 'ID' and if that was the case the stas would read much diferently as any cross breed is called pitbull when in fact they are just mongrel crossbreeds.

quote name='wiseguy' date='27th Feb 2011 - 10:37 AM' post='5173404']

There are some great amstaff breeders on this site, keeping them true to type and to standard, but you can't deny the fact that there is a growing trend that bigger is better and it's ruining the breed from within your precious registry, and what is the AKNC doing about it? hmmmmm? ponder that for me?

[

Absolutely, there are plenty of ''great'' Amstaff breeders, as there are of every other recognised, registered pure breeds.

These are the breeders I carefully & deliberately designate as ''ETHICAL" breeders.

Ethical breeders are the future of the pure breed dog.

Also, if you actually took the time to aquaint yourself with the AST standard you would know there is no height or weight stipulation other than 18''-19'' being preferable, weight is a proportional to height, & this, when applied to the entire breed description paints a word picture an athletic, agile dog, approx 18''-19'' to the withers.

Certainly more definative than 35lb-60lb+, height what ever, dog not to be to heavy or to rangy. what ever that is?

I haven't ever seen any ASTs that look as you have described Them.

We obviously move in different circles, I really only ever see the ethically bred types, whose owners are proud enough to exhibit them before their peers while having them judged against a bona fide standard.

Handsome dogs.

They could probably even accomplish a reasonable weight pull if their owners were so inclined.

Good breeding doesn't automatically disqualify a dog from performance, as you seem to image. It would enhance it if anything.

BTW, another little aside foryou to ponder.

There is a member of a bull breed specific site that claims his AKC registered STB is the champion weight pull dog. Claims it outpulls the pitties. I am skeptical, but that is his claimIt isn't ''my'' registry either, however, I am a registered breeder, & all my dogs are on ''our'' internationally accredited registry, as are any I produce, in accordance with our CoE, which I do take very seriously

You are missing the point that Geo made.Your own registry that you hold in such high esteem is registering dogs that are way outside the standard.So are they any better than any other registry that also does the same?

They will register the dogs but they will call them APBT.

So Wiseguy if you firmly believe that the AST is a pure bred pitbull, so why not rename all the AST's APBT in the name of originality etc..?

If you're trying to convert APBT people into believing their chosen dogs are not pure bred you're going to have a hard task. No matter how right you think you are, i think a dog that has been bred under the ADBA standards since 1909 with many many years of lineage and proof of parentage is pure enough for me.

If you believe that somehow that dog isn't pure bred because the AKC say's so, your head must be (to be polite) stuck in the sand.

You obviously either don't read all the posts or you are very selective about which bits you choose to comment on. Actually that is patently obvious.

I have said there is no doubt there are pure bred APBTs, there is no denying that, the problem being is that different regions have different opinions about what the ''true'' APBT is & what it looks like. Too much variety to be taken seriously as all being ''pure breeds'' of the same breed. Even you have made mention of the anomalies in the ''breed''.

Genuine, ethically bred, registered pure breeds are easily recognisable regardless of what COUNTRY they are bred in. APBTs vary from city to city, suburb to suburb depending on the opinion of the people who are breeding them.

And that, my man, is why they were not, & more than likely never will be, recognised as a bona fide pure breed by any legitmate pure breed registry on this earth. Or any other earth for that matter.

And please don't insult my intelligence by trotting out the usual petulant nonsense about ''we don't care'', ''ours are performance registers'' et al, etc, etc, waffle, waffle.

Any genuine, ethical breeder of recognised, registered pure breeds loves to have their ''work'' displayed at sanctioned championship shows, & especially if they can qualify for prestigious events such as westminister or crufts, the holy grails of the pure breed world & genuine, ethical APBT breeders would be no different if given the chance. They would jump at it if it was offered to them

BTW, about 6-8 (?) years ago, the top agility dog in the USA, as in numero uno, was an AKC registered SBT bitch. A little white girl, a dead ringer for my old girl reggie in fact, God rest her soul

It would be an interesting if the APBTs were given the chance at AKC registration though.

If all the factions could agree on an acceptable standard & then if they passed the required criterium , & were admitted on the AKC pure breed register, how many so called APBTs of today would be looking for a new identity tomorrow do you think?

At last you have changed your tune and admitted that there are purebred APBT's.How long has it taken you to admit this to yourself?I readily admit there are too many out of standard dogs and this is the problem in the US.A registery is only as good as its members and if certain people have muddued the waters and registered dogs that have other blood in them and it is quite obvious this has taken place what are they to do without evidence.If it was me and I owned the registry I would take action and slash and burn(deregister).Becuase the fact of the matter remains this is the main problem and why the pitbull has gone from the nanny dog to the most hated killing machine known to man.Simple fact is the majority of attacks in that country are by unregistered or out of standard large 'pitbulls' bred for a differnt purpose.They are not the norm but fast becoming it by people that dont have a clue.This is why I have stated for a long time by people who quote stas for America they have no bearing on this country as they are not the same dogs.hard for some people to understand I know.

Breeders and owners as a whole have to stand up and tell the registry we will no lnger accept that you register these dogs or we will take our business elsewhere or start our own registry.Easier said than done I know. As far as AKC registration we will never know will we so its ok to theorise but I think you would get a surprise just how many would becuase you wouldnt know.

Are you saying there are two (two ?) seperate & independent APBT registries in the USA? And they don't agree on what the dog actually looks like?

Are you also suggesting the UKC standard isn't the true breed description? Remembering the UKC is the second biggest registery in the USA & was founded specifically to give APBT a registry when the AKC didn't then, & still doesn't, consider the APBT answered the criteria required to accepted onto their register as a genuine, bona fide, pure breed.

And you say the ADBA doesn't even have a written description? their members just ''know'' how the breed should look. A telepathic standard. ,Wow how so 21st century is that?

And how so very very interesting.

What you are saying though certainly seems to vindicate the AKC stance, don't you agree?

I mean to say, if the breed enthusiasts can't agree how the breed looks, how could anyone possibly write a definitive standard for it to be allowed onto a genuine pure breed registery.?

Also, it is puzzling that the UKC, which claims to be a pure breed registery, will register just about any breed, regardless of how obscure it may be, except the American Staffordshire Terrier. Don't you find that extraordinary?

Twist the words to suit yourself you were always pretty good at it.