Kavik

I actually really enjoy instructing, seeing everybody progress, discussing things and watching everybody blossom. Don't get to do it so often anymore though.

I'm in the same boat as myszka. They've gotta have exercise somehow! So it looks like I have a few options: 1) do drive training only. I'm still not sure he has enough drive to make this worthwhile? Seriously in backyard he will work, front yard sort of, training sort of, park or streets or new areas, won't even look at the prey item. Doesn't matter what I do, I've tried having it on a string, throwing the prey item, throwing the prey item between two people, kicking the prey item, high value praise for any interaction with the prey item - people watching must think I'm mad! It is very frustrating! 2) Go back to the food spitting with Diesel - works well. Still needs more work though. Go to ob club and take him places. Do drive training from the beginning with the new pup who should have more drive!

I also agree Erny that it was quite rude to come around and give a treat to every dog. Not only for the obvious food refusal someone might be doing, but since most of the people are using food as their motivator, what chance do they have if someone else is also handing out food? She could have at least told us what she was doing.

So what am I supposed to do? Leave him in the yard all day when he is not training? Training sessions for drive work as you know are very short, he will go nuts and I will get complaints from neighbours. He will get very bored if all he gets is a few short drive sessions - seeing as he doesn't work well until around evening time. And I will also get very bored with no dogs to walk or take to training And one of the pleasures of owning a dog is to take it places and meet people. Much easier and more relaxing when dog friendly like Diesel is, he is the first I have had like that. Although I would love to compete with him, he is still my companion.

The club is not an avoidance style club, mainly uses food motivation. I don't normally go to that club, probably won't again as it is a diferent instructor. But the club I normally go to is mostly food, trains for competition, doesn't mind me doing things differently. So no club training at all? I have no idea how long it will take to build Diesel's drive to the point where it is really useful - getting better but still not great. I can only do a few short drive sessions with him a day - what am I supposed to do in the meantime ? He really enjoys going to training, and so do I (I like the social aspect as well ) He is the dog I can take with me to social outings - family gatherings, picnics, etc - it is more stressful taking Zoe because of her dog aggression. I don't see how I can still take him places if I don't do at least some control work with him - people don't appreciate a full on GSD

Unfortunately we don't have that much drive yet! If I am in a new area I am lucky if he even looks at the prey item! I got him to have a little chase last night at the different training ground (don't think we will go there often) but he didn't have a good grip - easily pulled out of his mouth. Certainly not enough drive to do focus work in a strange place, not interested enough. But he was plenty interested in other things!

Drive building is going better here too. So far my best idea has been to tie Diesel up while I do drive building with Zoe - so he watches and gets frustrated, and then I do drive work with him and he works better. I have started doing it in a few new locations too, not as good as home, but better than before (where he wouldn't even look at it!). You didn't answer my question of how I am to control him without controlling him while I build drive I was in a different location last night and decided to guest train at a different club (my old ob club) because I was in the area, and of course Diesel decided to be wild when normally he is reasonably calm! It didn't help that the instructor did things very differently and much quicker than I was used to so I didn't get time to settle properly. And they didn't know about the training in drive or food spitting (I told them about the food spitting though)! I would have preferred it if the instructor didn't come around and give food to all the dogs - she did it so fast without telling us I didn't get time to say don't feed him. I just realised that my old dog Belle is the closest I have had to a dog neutral dog! She would have a sniff but was not interested in playing, accepts new dogs into the house, but does not want to play even when they have settled in. But she will react if the other is aggro or is barking (so she is reactive and a bit aggro I guess). Zoe of course is aggro but once they settle in (few days - week) she wants to play with them.

Be sure to let me know if you find any I now have a dog aggro dog and a dog that wants to play with other dogs, but not a neutral dog! Oh, one more thing I thought of - while neutralising you are getting dog to focus on you? But doesn't that mean doing a bit of control work? And control work, (which is what I've done with food with Diesel) is why I am having problems with drive building. So how does that all work? I've loosened the control with Diesel (which means he was a bit wild at training last night!) - so how am I to control a 30kg dog if I don't use control work in ob. until this drive building stuff works anyway?

I've been thinking about it and I'm still a bit confused I see the benefits of neutralisation especially in regards to recalls and formal ob work etc. But I still don't understand how you would go about it with a pup? How do you find these dogs to neutralise your dog to? People I can see how you would do it as you can control them more, but you will still have people wanting to pat it, do you just say no? And how does this help your dog to deal with (my pet hate) loose dogs running up while you are walking, whether friendly or not? Or aggressive dogs?

I also have a dog aggro dog. I don't take her to offleash parks - I do take her to quiet parks and she has a run when no one else is there. I understand where myszka is coming from. I can have my dog aggro dog under control and on leash on the street and what frustrates me more than anything is where another dog (friendly or not!) comes running up and the owner can't call it away! My dog can only go so far because of the leash, but the offlead dog can go anywhere. Sometimes the other dog has crossed a road to get to me! Sometimes I purposely cross a road if I see another dog coming. And Zoe who is dog aggro has the best recall of my dogs.

I would have thought you should go a Mal, but I am a bit biased with Belgians :D

So myszka - you could show and do Schutzhund with a Tervueren?

I actually think the tracking component is going to be the most challenging - it is the bit I know the least about at the moment I plan on looking at joining a tracking club this year with Diesel to see what it is all about

myszka Out of interest did you think about other breeds to do Schutzhund or protection with? Which ones?

Ok I couldn't resist! Here is Block Doing protection with his handler in the first one and with me handling him in obedience in the second one. Edited because I put the wrong photo up first and then it did two photos together - I've never done that before! Cool!

Bex Diesel's breeder has a couple of Bordeaux. She really likes them and thought she'd see how they went at protection work. They are all really lovely dogs. The ones she had were quite good at protection, but it took a lot more to get them going than a GSD. From what I have seen of mastiff breeds, this is common within this group. Some of the Rotties also took a while to get going, and sometimes it was age related too, they had to be started later, were not interested until around 2 years. When not working all of hers were super friendly and would come over for pats and to slobber on everyone About APBT, I have seen a few of them at protection too. Their problem is certainly not getting them going! Most fire up very quickly. There was one there that was dog aggro, friendly with people but good at protection. But they had a problem getting him to let go. They did manage to teach him, but it was more difficult than with other dogs that I have seen. There is an Amstaff at work that would be awesome! I have also seen a few dogs of all breeds that you would think would be good at protection, and all they did was wag their tails, no reaction at all!

Believe it or not I am actually on your side in a way I DO think you should be able to give it a go - I have even heard of Labs doing it! And I have seen MANY sites with other breeds as well. BUT if the organisation running it won't allow other breeds, maybe you should get a few people together who have similar breeds and wish to train and approach the club and try to get them to change their mind If they won't change their mind - I don't know what else you can do If you are REALLY keen to train and you can't train with the dog you have (for anyone - either the wrong breed or wrong temp or whatever) - your only choice really is to get another dog. You don't have to get rid of your current dog - that is not what I meant at all. I meant an additional dog to do Schutzhund with.

In addition to what myszka said, if you REALLY want to do Schutzhund, really all that much, you could always get another dog that is a breed eligible to compete. The list of eligible breeds is actually quite long! and if you are serious, I am sure there will be one there you like. I am looking into possibly doing Schutzhund in the future. I saw the Nationals last year, have a book on it, look on websites and research, participate in a club that does protection work. But there is no way I would do it with my current dog. Although a GSD, Diesel does not have enough prey drive to be really successful. I am working on building this up for obedience competitions, we will see how we go. He is also ULTRA friendly to everyone! One of our problems in obedience is the stand for exam, he just wants a pat! He is from security lines, and I know his breeders did not breed high prey drive dogs, theirs had more defence. I haven't tested Diesel for any sort of protection or Schutzhund. But if I decide to do Schutzhund, it will be with a pup from proven lines with high prey drive. Either a GSD or Malinois (or Dutch Shepherd if you can use those? I think you can.)

K9 Force also has what is called the 'triangle of temptation' which would help with ignoring food - teaches the dog to look to you before it is allowed to eat. That might also be helpful.

Look up K9 Force's Training in Drive - that way you can utilise her prey drive and use that as a reward instead of food! Hopefully someone who is better at searching can bring up the thread He is having a workshop in May - although that may be full.

Flossie sounds like the PERFECT dog to train WITH food! Remembering that we do not define what the dog finds rewarding, the DOG does. Although you said she was not toy motivated, have you looked at K9 Force's threads on training in drive? He explains how to build drive and desire for the toy so it becomes a motivator. May be worth a look. Is there anything else Flossie likes? In order for food to not become a distraction, you can use it to teach focus on you. Use a clicker or not (I've read and seen how to do it with a clicker, but with Diesel I used food delivery from my mouth. Sounds a bit gross but it does work!) . But if you can teach attention and she knows food comes from you, not other people or the environment, then she will do anything for you to get the reward. Even Zoe, who is dog aggressive, will now look at me automatically if we go past another dog (at a distance) instead of looking at the dog, as she knows her reward only comes from attention to me.

Wish I was in Melbourne and could come train with you guys

My Black Dog treat pouch also had problems with the hinge . . . I picked up a neat new one when in the States! With a drawstring but no hinge :rolleyes: Lablover - Zoe does sometimes focus on the treat pouch - she can be cheeky and nose it when she does something right :rolleyes: - although focussing on hands is more of an issue with her (I have always rewarded her from my hand) With Diesel, since I do spit food, his focus on my face is better.

I know there are Cattle Dogs, Dutch Shepherds, Amstaffs and American Bulldogs doing Schutzhund in the USA - have seen pictures on club websites.

Diesel also has a contact allergy. We have I think a native version of Wandering Jew in the yard, and so far it has been resistant to my attempts to eradicate it His tummy and recently his tail is affected. This week Diesel is on cortisone, I am also washing with Aloveen shampoo and leave in conditioner. Luckily the cortisone doesn't seem to have knocked him around, although I know it can for some.