Kavik

Thanks for the article Vickie! A very interesting read. It explains the differences very well. So it would make sense then that GSDs are very different to kelpies in a number of ways, including working style and general temperament. Not to mention that working GSDs are bred mainly for protection and protection sports rather than herding nowadays. (I also think this could explain the change in their appearance? Although maybe not as many of the other 'loose eyed' dogs on the page were larger too). So how do these differences affect using them for trialling?

OK, just trying to get my head around some of this . . . So the list of breeds that can participate in herding is actually quite large, but many have different styles to kelpies and bcs. So how does that all work? Is it only some types of herding that the other breeds do? Like GSDs - brought up in numerous threads that they don't herd the same as kelpies and bcs. Do they compete against them? Is it fair to compare them? I've watched one yard trial (want to watch some more!) - it was mainly kelpies as I went with a friend who has kelpies, although there was the odd other dog. I am planning on getting a kelpie next year and want to try herding.

I think it just makes more sense to desex if you do not plan on breeding from the dog. Less testosterone flying around in males, no heat cycles to worry about in females to disrupt doggy activities! Makes multi dog households easier.

Hi Erny, yes they looked at the decoys out of anticipation. They knew they would get to 'play' with that person. They did not act like that with other people. Just like they know other people they meet regularly, and do specific things with them, they knew the type of interaction they would get with this one. If you worked the dog with lots of different decoys and did lots of civil work without equipment you may get the problem Haven suggested. But as you said it may have to do with how you end the session. If you end as friends it may not be a problem even then. K9 would be more qualified to answer.

You could try teaching your dog to bark on command, and then to bark when people come to the door/fence? Some dogs will start to put on a show as they get older on their own.

At 20 weeks you would want your pup to be friendly to people! Your dog is still a pup, still a baby, and with a stable temperament should not show aggression.

There is of course a well known and respected trainer in Melbourne and NDTF who has Rotties and she is only small and has no problem controlling them! I have had the pleasure of meeting with her at various courses and have even worked her dogs on occasion (protection and scent detection). She taught the dog not to pull during its protection work.

Some people also think that sending the dog away to be trained is the way things are done. That may seem strange but through one of my workplaces I know that some owners believe that that when a dog reaches a certain age it is time to send the dog away for training. And sometimes they send the dog away later for maintenance training as well.

I think if you put the work in you should be able to control a Rotty. I know a security guard who is only your size and she handles Shepherds for work. All my security guard friends do not let me use the excuse of my small size when it comes to handling large dogs (and I am smaller than you)! I have handled a few Shepherds in protection too, dfferent when they are not your dog though. I'm not totally up to speed on all the laws re protection dogs. Although even if the dog has to be muzzled in public, if you teach it muzzle fighting it will still be able to protect you if muzzled

Haven's comment about a static command slowing down the recall is something I see every week at training. And these people trial their dogs and have been trialling for a long time. Anticipation is something we often use to our advantage (such as sit always coming at the end of a recall) but can be a problem. I have not yet tackled the drop on recall with my dogs. With Zoe I don't think I ever will - it is more important for me for her to have a lightning fast recall everytime. With Diesel if I want to trial at a high level obedience I will have to get to it. I have practiced drop at a distance for both toy and food rewards, and a good method I have heard is to then add a recall after the drop and lastly add the first recall. And don't do it too often, that way they don't learn to anticipate.

I have been a decoy a few times (directed by experienced decoys and with experienced dogs and handlers) and the dogs were fine with me afterwards. With the 'regular' decoys, the dogs certainly knew who they were! They gave them 'the eye' when they saw them, which they did not give me. So maybe it is familiarity? EFS

My best home watchdogs so far have been the kelpie crosses! When I lived with my parents and had the two of them, they made quite a racket people certainly waited to be told it was OK! I have found in my area people are scared of dogs in general, they even move away if I am walking Zoe! Neither of mine would protect me though. For protection, of course my input is a GSD or a Mal My next dog is likely to be a Kelpie. You should have seen Lisa's look of disbelief when I told her that She said to come and look at her prey crazy GSD fully imported first and she has pups

I guess most of us are having more problems with the building part LOL! Me included . . . I have found Diesel's attitude has improved heaps with a break, I think I was trying to push him too hard. Yesterday I had a prey item hidden in my clothes, and Diesel spotted it and stole it off me LOL! I still can't get him working for any length of time. Man, working with food is so much easier!

I have a hard time handling a clicker too, especially with dumbell work, way too much to hold and not enough hands! LOL

Also i-clicks have a softer click and I think there is one out with an adjustable volume? I expected Zoe to be scared of the noise but she was fine.

I work at two places that groom - one does not strip and the other offers stripping. Both groomers own stripped breeds and strip their own dogs (one I know is an exhibitor, not sure about the other). I don't think many pet groomers offer it as it is time consuming and tough on your body. For Dogs Sake! has the groomer that does offer stripping. She did one today - a JRT.

Thank you!

I have not had a positive experience with head halters as Zoe really does not like them. She used to hide when I brought it out but she is better now, although she will still try to rub it off on walks. I will occasionally use one on her if I am in a situation that I am worried about her getting really aggro at other dogs in a small space where I can't get away, such as at the vet, but even then I often use a collar. I sometimes use one at agility as you are not allowed correction collars. I think they are so popular beause it allows people to control large dogs in training, especially when clubs are not allowing the use of check or prong collars. Many clubs only allow flat collars, martingales or head collars. I only weigh 43 kilos, and if I had a young large strong dog that pulls and was a bit out of control and went to one of these clubs, you really have no choice but a head collar if a martingale does not cut it.

After having walked the dogs yesterday for the first time since I got back, and having had some sleep, I had a think about this. I can see how neutralisation would make training easier as there are less temptations/distractions. But I have to put my hand up as being one of those people who really enjoys it and gets a lot of pleasure out of being social with my dog. I really enjoy meeting people and dogs (not dogs with Zoe though!) on walks, people enjoy meeting and patting the dogs, and we talk. And with Diesel the dogs get to sniff and say hi. I find this one of my favourite parts of owning a dog. Zoe is more attached to me than Diesel is - will ignore people and distractions and focus on me more and will not work for other peoplw well if prevented by a lead to get to me. That I think is more individual personality plus she is older and I have worked with her more. And with Purple Julie, unless you strictly control the people your dog interacts with, I think it would be very difficult to neutralise your pup to people, as most people want to say hi and visit puppies even if they don't with adult dogs. And it is hard enough to find dogs that can give your pup a positive experience, it would be very difficult to find one that would help your pup to see dogs as neutral.

Is there any information on desexing increasing aggression in female dogs? Zoe became aggressive towards dogs after being desexed, she was fine before. But as she was desexed around 6 months I guess it could have been a number of things that occur around that age. But any information helps! And if this implant helps aggression in female dogs, I am all ears! I wish I had been here for the dog aggression seminar with K9! Maybe will have to do a private lesson when finances improve . . .

What a great thread to meet me when I returned from the USA! I hadn't even thought about the difference between neutralisation and socialisation! I guess I always assumed that you would want a positive association with everything! That could account for my problem with Diesel with especially the stand for exam - he wants to play with the examiner! K9 - what is your opinion on clicker training? Seeing as most clicker trainers use free shaping? It seems to be almost the opposite of how you train. I have done a bit of both - clicker and prey. Probably explains a lot of the problems I am having - probably should make up my mind. With sidoney's help I have used clicker training successfully with Zoe to teach her a trick I thought I wouldn't be able to teach her due to her focus on my hands.

Darn! I am still in the USA and missed it! Was the one I definitely wanted to get to! If the video is good I would love to get a copy if possible! I can only get internet at internet cafes, so I can't check the board often. I get back on 5 Nov. Missing the dogs heaps!

The fact that my dog would run if I have a squirt bottle may not bother some people, but I found it caused problems. If I took Zoe to my OH's hockey games, she got scared when people were drinking from water bottles, if I was cleaning the house etc she would hide under the bed. Zoe is the kind of dog that tends to overreact to things including noises, so it may not affect other dogs as much.

I was one that travelled interstate once a month to do the course It is a great course, well worth doing.

I used a squirt bottle for Zoe when she was little - she became afraid of spray bottles and drink water bottles. I think enough time has gone by since I have used the method (long since stopped) that she is no longer afraid, but I haven't checked. So it can happen.