Kavik

They correctd her for aggresssive behaviour via the leash, praise for when she was not aggressive. Worked for them, they had her meeting strange dogs not a problem. But with me if I give her a leash correction she often gets more aggressive. I have found the most effective thing to be getting her attention on me with food, keeping her focus and attention and heeling. However, I cannot get her to meet strange dogs on lead. She can live with other dogs, always has. Even new adult dogs (providing they don't react to her being narky) she is playing with in a few days after they come to live with her, just requires careful supervision (and hosing if she is difficult) for the first few days. She loves to play with Diesel,

She is actually better in a class than one on one with another dog - we can do heeling patterns fine in class, she does not try to be agro. It is more in between exercises when she has nothing to do and focus on that there are problems. We can do long stays at a distance fine. Mainly it is when dogs are relaxing and having fun (bouncing around) that she tends to get narky. Have done the send away to get trained thing - the problem is the methods they used don't work for me - only make her worse.

I understand the principle, but the problem is how When I take her to classes, that is exactly what I do - we do attention exercises and tricks and anything that will keep her focus, but it is very tiring (for both of us) to do it the whole class. I spend 90% of my time in class keeping her attention. NOT fun! There is no point trying on walks - people have no clue and often their dogs are out of control. Classes - besides there being a lot of dogs, again, often their dogs are not under control. And people often don't understand that she is not friendly and get offended if you tell them to go away. I don't know anyone with a few dogs who I trust to help me with the problem. She is better at obedience as it is not as stimulating, agility is more exciting and more difficult to keep her attention.

I'm beginning to think I can't be bothered to deal with the stress of doing agility with Zoe. We have done obedience for 5 years, and agility for a while. During the time we did classes, my stress levels were so high and I was always upset about her aggression and didn't enjoy her good qualities. Since I haven't been doing classes lately I am enjoying her much more, we do trick training on our walks which she loves. I don't think I can face that stress again, she'll just have to deal without agility I am doing obedience with Diesel which has really made me appreciate how nice it is to finally have a dog friendly dog! I'll just have to wait till I get another kelpie to do agility.

I think pinch collars are great if you have a dog that requires one. I don't have the choice to use them in my chosen sports. Competition obedience clubs will mostly allow check chains (although at some clubs, even these are frowned upon), I think if you showed up with a pinch collar you would get told off quickly enough, certainly would not be allowed to train in it. In agility you are not allowed check chains, if you bring a pinch they would probably put the RSPCA on you

My dog is also dog aggressive and I also want to do agility with her, so I sympathise! My dog's recall is good though, and she is more interested in doing agility than being aggressive. She will do the course off lead fine and does not run off course looking for trouble. I can keep her attention at other times with the 'watch' command and food. Our main problem is waiting in line for our turn (this is where she gets toey), and the fact that a lot of other dogs who don't have a good recall often decide to visit other dogs, which mine does not like. I have found a club which looks good as I can crate her in between runs and I have told them of my problem so they know to keep their distance. I have been for an intorduction, but have been too busy lately to give it a proper try. Maybe this week. It is a good idea to get a handle on the problem first (at least a very reliable recall and be sure he won't run off course) as agility is a high energy and high excitement sport, and I have found that increased excitement = increased aggression in my dog.

the 9 July - is it only problem behaviour solving or also just paroblems in teaching a particular task such as attention or retrieving? I am interested in both, have one with behaviour problem and another just trying to get it right :rolleyes: Don't think we are quite up to trialling with Diesel just yet, but we certainly are aiming for it and think we can get there.

double post

Yes the interesting thing is that you don't actually give a command until the dog is doing what you want - that was hard at first as I am so used to giving the command as you teach. What I have found with luring (what I have used more often in the past) is that it makes the dog very focused on my hand - Zoe will follow my hand and stare at it. It makes teaching some things very difficult (such as jumping through your arms) - I still haven't worked out how to teach that without an assistant to help as she will just stand staring at my hand! Clicker training is more about getting the dog to display new behaviours and experiment. The tricky thing I am finding is making sure you reinforce the right thing! While teaching retrieving I accidentally taught Diesel to throw the dumbell! He would reach for and rip the dumbell out of my hand and then hurl it across the room! I had to backtrack then for the hold. At the moment I am only just starting with clicker training and only use it for a few things, still finding my feet with it really.

With my dog who doesn't offer behaviours I don't think this is the case. She will happily offer behaviours that she already knows earn rewards (she will cycle through them all if she is unsure - quite funny to watch!) - so I'm sure that if she was introduced as a pup she would be really good with the clicker. But because I've mostly lured her, she will happily follow my hand or a treat, but it takes her a while to realise she has to do something for a treat that is unrelated (I don't think I worded that at all well!). I have taught her to target my hand and to shake using the clicker, but I sort of cheated getting her started (getting her to realise that it was the hand/paw I wanted) as she would not do it on her own. Once she realised even a little what was wanted, she was off and running.

One of my dogs does not offer new behaviours either, but is great once she knows what you want! You can break behaviours down into small components and reward for tiny increments, such as looking at the thing you want her to interact with or moving at all closer. As for verbal praise - when clicker training (I don't use clickers for everything - actually I am very new to it and still getting the hang of it!) I use praise as an encouragement that they are going in the right direction but I want them to continue. For example I am teaching the retrieve with the clicker. Teaching Diesel to calmly hold it has been the most difficult part. I use praise when he is holding the dumbell but I want him to continue holding. I use the clicker when I want him to stop the behaviour (when he has held it for as long as I want in that session). Does that make sense?

You can start out with just clicking the clicker (that sounds funny!) and then give the dog a treat so the dog builds the association between the sound of the clicker and the reward. Once the dog knows this you can progress to teaching behaviours. The click is a reward marker and shows the dog the exact instant it was doing what you wanted - it generally also stops the behaviour (the dog stops what it was doing and turns to you for a treat).

You can either wait for them to do it by themselves and 'capture' it or you can add something that will act as a cue and make them want to do it (or investigate the object you want them to interact with). Often you want them to interact with something - your hand, the dumbell, a targetting stick. Well lets take teaching 'shake' as an example (I got Diesel to do this in one session) (Assuming your dog knows click = treat) * I put my hand, palm up, on the floor. *When dog goes to investigate hand, click and treat * Once dog doing this reliably, only click when paw comes ner hand * then only when paw is on hand * then raise hand a bit * eventually you can have your hand at any height and the dog should paw your hand and you have taught 'shake' It can be frustrating if you have a dog that does not offer new behaviours.

Clicker training is about giving the dog choices - you wait for the dog to offer the behaviour you want, without luring (if you are hardcore!). The dog always has the option with clicker training not to do what you want. That is what made it frustrating for me when I started .

To show that I really think there are several factors involved in what method is best for you, I know that I will alter my training method depending on what sport I plan on doing with my dog. Dog 1 (Diesel) - competitive obedience * I use food/toy/praise/petting rewards * I use luring/shaping to teach a position, have physically placed a few times so he is comfortable with that too * I use luring/shaping to teach new complex tasks such as retrieving, return to heel position - learning use of clicker * I use a check chain or martingale for control/physical corrections where necessary * atm I use a cotton lead as it is lightweight and easy to fold in hand for subtle corrections/fingtertip control Dog 2 (future - probably kelpie) - agility * will use food/toys/praise petting reward * will use luring/shaping to teach a position and new tasks - probably with more emphasis on clicker training * not so much emphasis on staying with me or on left side * will use flat collar, possibly martingale or head collar if control while waiting in line needed (no agility club allows check chains) Dog 3 (future - Malinois or GSD) - Schutzhund * not sure if they use food/toys but assume they do from what I have read * will use a combination of methods to teach positions, including physically placing * from what I have read, a lot use force fetch, but motivational retrieve heard of, not sure what I will use there * will use check chain or pinch collar for control/corrections * will use leather wide flat collar and leash for safety and control

My guess is MJ means a club where the dogs are placed into position physically, receive verbal and physical praise for doing the right thing, and verbal and physical corrections if the command is not followed (once the dog understands what is wanted). As opposed to a club where dogs are lured/shaped into positions with food/toys, use a food/toy/praise/petting reward.

I'll have a think about it. I still have lots more questions about Diesel too, I think he has the potential to be a great dog and does not have the hang ups Zoe has, can't bring em both though!

Not sure I want to bring Zoe because of her dog aggression. Too much stress for me (and her!). I also think her nerves are not great - certainly when she is in prey drive (or excited generally) her dog aggression needs very little to surface! And if she gets scared, she does not recover well and takes a long time to act normally. EFS

You can quite easily incorporate training into your walks. I practice recalls when the dog is distracted by a smell or person or dog, same with coming into heel position. I get them to sit politely (at the moment practicing stand a lot though) when someone walks past. I practice getting them to sit or drop when they are not paying attention (walking ahead or sniffing). That way you practice the dog obeying even when you don't have their full attention, which would be the case in an emergency. I enjoy trick training though - especially with Zoe as she so loves it! It is so much fun to show a group of kids that she can spin, weave through my legs, bow, beg, play dead, roll over and stand on her hind legs. They then often want to give it a try, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't Often she looks at me instead.

Maybe I'll just have to book in a private lesson and see what you say! (We could work on her dog aggression issues too that way - bonus! Obviously I am leaving her at home and bringing Diesel to the seminar. He is also much easier to figure out than Zoe!)

I managed to get her into drive with 'Ready!' in the yard just then - but that time I think it was prey drive because after doing her little bounce which shows she is ready, she went and found a ball. Would getting satisfaction from the obstacles themselves (and rewarding the dog with obstacles) be using play drive?

I'm pretty sure the example with the mice was done to show learned helplessness, but I can't find it in my notes. Will have to do a thorough search. I think because the mouse that was shocked and not initially shown how to turn it off took a really long time to learn to turn it off when eventually shown how to.

I can say 'Ready!" and Zoe is instantly ready to go - I use this before doing agility. BUT I don't use prey drive in agility - it is mostly doing the obstacles she finds rewarding (I use food with new obstacles or contacts and for recall at the end, but the focus when I say 'ready' is on the first obstacle). Is this an example of a trigger word for working in drive? If so, which drive?

Just going from memory there, knew I may not have gotten it totally right! I remember the example in the course being about it though . . .

Great topic guys This is what I'm hoping to learn all about in that seminar! Can't wait for it!