Kavik

I quite like this article on breeds that are 'hard to train' http://www.flyingdogpress.com/difficult.html PGM - Do you have an open mind to learn about other styles of training at all? There is so much out there, in many different fields and styles.

Teach heel and loose lead walking as two different exercises. Heel is precise and only for short periods of time. Often it is useful to teach attention first - teach them to watch you. This gets them used to the idea of paying attention. Loose lead walking can be done for longer periods with less concentration - it is what you will probably do most of the time. The dog is allowed to sniff and go to the end of the lead but not pull.

It is possible to teach the dog to accept handling without forcing it into a position and risking a potential bite! I would think it best not to force a dog that appears nervous. I have seen many dogs that are placed into a drop for the first time scream and roll around and attempt to bite (and these were NOT fear biters). Not a lot of owners are comfortable with putting their dog in that position. I can actually place Zoe in a drop physically, she is fine being groomed and vetted and adores children patting her. I happen to get a better, faster and more confident and relaxed response with a more hands off approach to training. She is a difficult dog, but I have learnt a lot. Would have been interesting if I knew about clicker training when she was a pup. I keep an open mind and like to learn about all approaches to training and realise that some will work better for a certain dog than another. Koehler does work but IMO may not suit all dogs or owners.

So Koehler's answer is to physically drag the passive resistant dog around (as it is not interested in moving on its own) and to get the nervous dog upset by placing it in a position where it was not comfortable? (and possibly risk being bitten if the dog is fear aggressive, which luckily mine is not) Does not surprise me one bit

OK, Italian Greyhound My OH's old Bully was a stubborn dog who had a passive resistant response to training (they did not use Koehler) - if she did not want to do something, she would just refuse to move, you would have to drag her. His parents (who mainly looked after the dog) had had numerous dogs before - GSDs and Dobes, and also have a Staffy who is a lovely dog and they have had no problems training it. This Bully was a more difficult dog. She had no desire to please people, and I think she is the kind of dog Koehler would not work with. How would Koehler deal with a dog that refuses to move? Also, not all dogs respond well to physically being placed into position or even physical praise. My Kelpie cross is one such dog - she is nervous and skittish and physically placing her does not work. She likes some pats, but not cuddles. Diesel on the other hand has no problems with being physically placed into position, and loves being scratched patted and cuddled. Koehler would work better on him than on Zoe but I prefer to use different methods.

I think people don't like Koehler because of the potential for problems if the person does not know what they are doing. I have seen (mostly men) over correct dogs because of this. A nice owner I know who has a lovely long haired GSD bitch (quite handler soft) tended to over correct her because he saw other handlers with really tough security dogs correct their dogs more harshly. His dog did not require that, and he was told to settle or he would ruin his dog. Also I think some breeds do not respond well to this method. Some dogs that are passive resistant will just refuse to move or do anything (I think of my OH's old Bull Terrier and some pitties I have seen), and some sighthounds really do not cope, they shut down. It works best with resiliant working type dogs. Breeds that are traditionally seen as 'difficult to train' probably do best with alternative more positive (food and toy) based methods. Not all dogs are super keen as mustard to do what their handler wants. Edite: because I can't spell

My one 'problem dog' who can be a barker is dog aggro and would not be accepted into a doggy daycare. I even stress when I have to board her because at some boarding places and vets that board don't always know how to deal with it and I am worried they would make it worse. Luckily for me, Diesel's breeder has no problem with me dropping off the dogs at any time, even though Zoe is not one of theirs.

I say if your dog works for toys use it! Is he interested in toys without a squeak? Balls or something soft or a tug? Diesel likes balls and tugs. I bring a tug to class and use it after a string of exercises as a release. All of my dogs are crazy about food, so I don't have that problem. Diesel is actually the onlly dog I've had that will work for toys - the others would ONLY work for food or praise.

True - this is my first attempt at clicker training, and we are trying to clicker retrieving. It has taken a long time to teach the hold because I accidentally taught him to throw the dumbell due to my timing (and messing around as it is my first try). It has taken a while to get rid of that habit, but we are progressing now

To some people the HOW is important. I think it depends on what you are comfortable with and what you wish to achieve. For happy competition heeling, most use food or toys for attention. Clickers are becoming popular too. Keeping an open mind is best, I hope to learn as much as I can about all methods and wish to try a number of disciplines. If you are interested in a particular method, best research it first to see if it suits your purpose.

Personally for my dogs I would choose a more positive approach, but it depends on the dog and what you want you do. Research the Koehler method before you choose to use it.

Could mine be black? :rolleyes:

Check chains aren't controversial - if you want controversial mention pinch collars :rolleyes: I'm also having loads of fun with clickers - Diesel will finally hold the dumbell in his mouth without trying to spit it out or throw it! And he learnt to shake in about 5 minutes!

Blackdog sells some with a clip to make getting it on and off much easier ;) http://www.blackdog.net.au/products.html

My parents tried the citronella collar first - he just barked through it. They were reluctant to try the electric one but everyone's fuse was growing very short with all the barking. The barking started the first night the dog (18 months old Beagle) was with them. The electric no bark collar worked well on this dog, people were finally able to get some sleep!

When you have a rescue dog (newly acquired adult) that barks/howls all night (literally - 8 hours) and no one gets any sleep and the neighbours are complaining - you will BEG to use an electric no bark collar.

A man was prosecuted by RSPCA after found he used electric no bark collars on his dogs. The collars were recommended by the council ranger? He will face 3 charges each $6000 fine. Any more information

Could you put me down for one? Thanks Lia

I guess my dog must be weird then because he likes his vegies LOL! Even if it just a chicken wing and vegie meal, he will eat the vegies, they don't have to be mixed. I did mix it with pet chicken mince to start with though. I am a bit paranoid about bones they can't eat the whole thing of, so mine only get chicken wings and frames and beef brisket bones (can't find turkey necks here, been asking everywhere?).

Both of my dogs are very different. Zoe gets overly excited really easily (this is where her dog aggression problems are the worst), while Diesel is more laid back and easy going (except in new places, when he is excited! But he is still young, and calms down eventually.) I use food for both dogs, but with Diesel I also use balls and tug toys (I can only get Zoe's attention with food). I use either a check chain or martingale collar, depends on how I feel, how the dog is working and the weather. Zoe is trickier to handle because not only does she get more excited, but she is also more sensitive, so it can be tricky to figure out how firm to be if she misbehaves. I have found being calm with her training works the best. Because Diesel is more laid back, I have to be more upbeat and excited in his training. As he is slower, I have found breaking exercises into small components works well for him, Zoe is a fast worker and this can be hard with her. I have started clicker training Diesel, he is catching on fast, Zoe who is not clicker trained is slow catching on (although I did a similar training method with her scent detection work).

That's good focus moremals! We are getting there - just more practice I guess! He is a beautiful boy - you are tempting me on purpose aren't you

I can get that sort of eye contact when standing still, but not on the move. He will look at my face, but does not lift his head that high or at quite that angle. I agree EddyAnne, I prefer to keep my hands together by my bellybutton while heeling too (sometimes treats come from there! Sometimes from my mouth. Neither me or Diesel is fully coordinated with dropping and catching treats from mouth yet).

I want to know how they get them to heel like this: (taken from http://www.malinois.com/otvitosha/video.htm)

My local vet thought Diesel was big when I brought him in at 10 weeks and thought he was going to be big, I knew he was actually small (not the biggest in the litter and continued that way). A lot of people pick him for younger than he is because of his size - he is just a small one! Which is interestesting because his breeder does get a lot of bigger dogs (some smaller ones occasionally though). His lack of size does not bother me - I'm only 5 foot anyway!

Bronx beats Diesel at 15 months by 12 kg!