Kavik

The Beagle was in a closed crate - otherwise he counter surfed and raided bins among other things!

The experiment with the two mice was to show that that if not shown how to turn off the negative stimulus (no control over environment), you get learned helplessness - the animal thinks there is no way out of the unpleasantness and enevtually doesn't even try.

I've considered clomicalm but haven't used it. I am also interested in other people's experiences. The Beagle my parents had for a while (before they decided they couldn't cope with a bitey dog) had separation anxiety, he was a howler and barker nonstop when not with people. I had a hard time convincing them to try stuff, but they got several complaints from neighbours as well as no sleep. What helped them was crate training the dog, and the use of an electric no-bark collar (he would bark straight through a citronella one). The crate gave him his own space, which he felt comfortable in.

Very interesting Amhailte. It does sound like negative reinforcement. I haven't read that book but it is on my list of books to read.

I doubt anyone claiming to be a purely positive trainer would use negative reinforcement . . . Negative Reinforcement = Removal of undesirable stimuli when action is done -> action more likely to be repeated in the future.

Exactly! Not one method is going to work for all dogs. This includes Koehler. This includes clicker training. Continual learning about new methods and keeping an open mind about methods and equipment is the best way to do this. Often the method that works best depends on: The dog's temperament The owner's temperament (and training style preference) What the goal of training is (competition obedience, agility, pet, Schutzhund, Security, scent detection, assistance dog etc) Most of the time a dog can be trained successfully with a number of methods or styles.

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The plan is to get out to Parramatta and give it a proper try out Since I got married on the 22nd, been a bit busy and haven't gotten out there. Things are starting to get back to normal, so should get a chance to get there soon. I have some equipment at home as well. I went to the Agility Dog Club of NSW for a while, but found it too busy for Zoe's dog aggression problem. I'm hoping Parramatta works for us, if not, I'll have to wait for a more accomodating dog!

My dogs love cheese Cabanossi works well too. vpzn is right though - if the environment is too distracting food is not likely to work, best to build up your dog's response in another environment first. I don't yet let Diesel off the lead (even though he is pretty good) because he just LOVES to meet new people and dogs! And a lot of people are scared of him because of his breed (German Shepherd).

Hmmm, not sure about getting him to retrieve remote and phone! Still worried that he might think it is more fun to chew! Even accidentally, I'm sure 30kg of Shepherd jaws could easily damage them! I will work on getting him to hold metal objects though, will need that for trialling. Gloves might be more difficult, he will probably want to play with it.

I am clicker training Diesel's retrieve for the same reason ;) (forced retrieve was not mentioned at my club, but I was not having much success with the method they use) We are starting to get somewhere too! We have 'hold' down pat and he will walk and hold (and sit from a walk), and pick up from ground and sit. Still having problems with pick up from ground and walk - he tends to drop it then, but he is improving fast now!

True. I highly doubt anyone really uses ONLY positive reinforcement. Even leash restraint is not positive. When people say they only use positive reinforcement, I think they mean they do not use check chains or leash corrections as you would use with a check chain.

Yep, just as what a dog percieves as rewarding varies from dog to dog, so does what they perceive as punishment.

Those sound like cases of redirected aggression.

That is great news :rolleyes: Very encouraging to those of us who have dog aggression problems with our dogs.

I enjoy the fact that I can make obedience training a game as much as any 'trick' training :rolleyes:

I'm also pretty sure that pinch collars are not allowed at any ANKC obedience club, but they seem to be more widely accepted in the USA. Electric collars are also not accepted here, but seem more acceptable there. It certainly is interesting to see the difference in the countries. Also interesting because I am pretty sure that most of the 'purely positive' methods were also started over there?

We can certainly agree to disagree :rolleyes: I happen to think that for the average pet owner without a major problem dog that there are other methods to use that are successful. Like I said before, I just want people to have a look at various methods and research the one they use and find one they are comfortable with. Many people are not comfortable with Koehler. People should be comfortable with the method they choose. Interestingly, I have not found an ANKC obedience club that uses Koehler methods. The competition clubs I have been to have all used a combination of praise, food, toys, games and check chains. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find a club that even lets you use a check chain.

Still, you guys yourself are admitting you are not praising the dog AT ALL yet you are correcting the dog when not in the right position. I am not twisting your words at all. Does not sound very positive. And PGM is saying it is positive. Most people when they talk about positive mean verbal, physical praise and food/toy rewards. I don't see any of that in your posts.

Yes that Suzanne Clothier article was interesting, here is the link: http://www.flyingdogpress.com/pposa.html I am also a balanced trainer, and love to learn new training techniques or ideas.

I just find it interesting that although I know that Koehler uses rewards, all of what PGM has posted about getting the dog not to pull involved NO verbal communication with the dog (and I assume because it was mentioned no praise or petting). I don't see how this is AT ALL positive - I would have thought praise for being in the right position would be used? "The Koehler method involves a fifteen foot lead and a check chain. Take the dog to the required area (your local park or something). With dog on lead and on your left start walking. Hold the remaining slack on the lead in your right hand, making sure the lead is not tight. For the first week there is no talking, no commands, no communication between dog and handler (one isn't supposed to even look at the dog). When the dog moves ahead, let out the remaining slack on lead and move swiftly in the other direction, wait till dog catches up, then move off again with purpose"

I use three quadrants thank you :rolleyes: The only one I don't use is negative reinforcement. You don't tend to come across as viewing other methods of training as viable, could just be the way you type. I can see good and bad points in Koehler, and in other methods, I just prefer not to use Koehler. You don't seem to acknowledge the good points in other methods.

Where is the seminar being held? You may have said and I can't remember or find the post :rolleyes:

What about scent detection? (all positives there), clicker training, shaping? I found the hardest part when I was doing scent detection and decided to teach an active response for a food reward (Zoe is not enough toy motivated to use that). Trying to get the dig response was hard because I had not taught Zoe to think in that way before - I had to reward tiny paw movements, then only more vigorous digging. It was amazing doing something so different and the scent component where you have to trust the dog in the end. There is more to training than Koehler, I hope that someday you can see that.