Kavik

My previous dogs did look at my hands (they were smaller so even hands was looking up LOL!) Diesel sometimes does look at my hands, at the moment that is keeping him in better position than trying to get him to watch my face as I think my posture when I get him to watch my face on the move is making him lag. My fault. Diesel also tends to heel closer than Zoe does, Diesel sometimes crowds. grooy rotty I use cheese as the food reward from my mouth, thinking of trying cabanossi too. I use a combination of methods at the moment, just checking them out and seeing what I like. Pretty much the only part of that tape that I use is the attention bit. I think with some work I am really going to like clicker training, it just takes some getting used to as it is so different from the other methods I have tried, even the positive ones.

I have good eye contact when stationary, but am finding eye contact on the move trickier. The training a competition heeling dog video from Leerburg is the one I have. I am finding though that heeling slowly for short periods is good practice for slow pace, but then Diesel lags in normal and fast pace, so for now I have gone back to rewarding from my hand on the move until I fix that.

I think it makes them look more animated and excited, some of the dogs that heel with no eye contact look bored and not interested (not saying yours does!). I have seen some video footage of American dogs with a lot of eye contact and it looks amazing! The dogs look so happy and bouncy! That is how I want my dog to look when it heels.

Corine, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience! In the five years I've had Zoe and the 4 I've been dealing with her dog aggression I've never been told I had to muzzle her or been banned from a club. Most clubs tend to downplay it and sometimes I feel like I am the only one taking it seriously. I've been tempted to muzzle her a few times just so people would keep their distance though! The club I am with at the moment have been the most helpful in dealing with her aggression, and understanding my frustration in how good she is otherwise.

I want it for competition obedience.

My Kelpie cross is dog aggressive. For this reason we never did off lead heeling work in class (except for assessment), I thought it was too risky. We got to the point where we could do off lead recalls happily (she has a blinding fast recall!) and I could drop the lead and walk a good distance away in group stays. I got to novice class with her, the first of the trialling classes. The problem I had in one club is they kept wanting me to do more off lead work than I was comfortable with. The club I am with at the moment is not like that, they let you work with where you are comfortable. Now I am training Diesel who is very dog friendly, so don't have that problem

Well, it certainly was a traditional type method, use check chains, verbal and physical praise and no food or toys. I don't know many clubs or trainers who stick exclusively to the exact style of one trainer. They certainly did use the part of the method I highlighted in my last post. And I did see LOTS of dogs come up lead. Mostly redirected aggression, either they were dog aggressive and came up when corrected for going another dog, or when doing protection and they had to leave the decoy or were practicing false attacks. There are many ways to use a check chain, most clubs that use them now use them for attention. It is actually becoming more and more difficult to find a club that will let you use them.

That was me!! Yep, treats in mouth work really well! You may want to start by kneeling, and allow the dog to take them from your mouth, then progress to standing but bend at the knees to give the reward. It takes a lot of practice to drop it into their mouth - I still find it easier to bend down and give the treat! You have to not mind lots of doggy kisses! And find a treat you like the taste of too. You can also use a clicker for this if you want.

From an online lecture on the Koehler method: ***************************************** The Foundation (chapter 3) for The Koehler Method of Dog Training is a process using the dog’s own “right of choice.” Allow me to outline the foundation work for those not familiar with it (it’s a real attention getter). As early as day number three, the dog is brought onto the training field from a place of solitary confinement where he has been for about two hours. He has not eaten in 4 hours, nor has he consumed any water for one hour. He is wearing a properly fitted choke collar and a fifteen foot longe line. You arrive at a predetermined position on the field, which you have selected as a starting point. While at the starting point you place the thumb of your right hand into the loop of the longe line and close your fist around the handle. Place your left hand directly under your right and close a fist around the line and let the balance of the line drop to the ground. Now, silently move toward a fixed object of reference 50 feet ahead. Oh but wait, you exclaim, does this author not understand that if I drop the fifteen feet of slack to the dog he will move directly toward anything that might distract him? Yes, and so did Mr. Koehler. We fully recognize, as should you, that the dog who goes toward the distraction does so as a matter of choice. You too are granted the right of choice, and in this case, your choice will be to turn away from the dog’s line of travel and move, with equal determination, in a direction opposite his. Before long, the slack is consumed, and the dog is made very uncomfortable. His good senses will tell him that the resulting discomfort was something other than what he expected when he chose to go in the direction of the distraction. His instincts will be to somehow lessen the discomfort around his neck, and when he finally moves toward you, also an act of his choosing, the line will indeed slacken and the dog will have made a more correct choice; one which results in comfort. ************************************************************ http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/

Here is a link to a book review on Koehler - I'll leave it up to you to make up your own mind about the method. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...7779300-3974212 I use check chains when required, but I do not use the Koehler method, I use food and tug rewards mostly, the check chain to get the dog's attention if it wanders. I am thinking of even changing to a martingale instead of a check chain on my dogs. If you have a sensitive dog, I would not recommend Koehler. One club I instructed at (that trains security dogs) uses a similar method to Koehler. While it works fine for security type dogs, I found it way to harsh for my Kelpie cross. I also saw more dogs come 'up lead' to try to bite their handlers when corrected than I had seen in my life.

Go watch some agility - then you won't think Borders are robotic or military like - you will think they are nuts Just like the Kelpies . . .

vpzn, That makes a lot of sense! My problem is I am impatient and try to hurry things along. A program sounds like a good idea, I need to set some small goals.

The problem with holding it in his mouth (holding his mouth closed over dumbell) is that he then really wants to spit it out and then resents the dumbell (that is the problem I have with the way my club teaches it). Using the clicker he wants to grab the dumbell, but he will not hold it calmly. It seems using the clicker makes him want to be very active with the dumbell, and if I wait for a longer hold he tries to rip the dumbell out of my hand, or paws at it.

I would like to trial in obedience, so want the retrieve for that. Diesel is my first serious attempt at trialling. I know retrieving is so important for the more advanced exercises. I have heard of force fetching, but am not sure I want to do it. Nobody in my club has experience with it - they just practice hold (close dog's mouth over dumbell) and praise and somehow their dogs just get it! Most have goldies, but some have GSDs and Mini Schnauzers and that is how they all teach retrieving (at both clubs I have been to). I haven't had success with either of my dogs with that method (well, it worked to a point, but they were not enthusiastic to take the dumbell). I would rather not force retrieve, and certainly not without someone to show me how to do it properly - I am worried about doing it wrong and causing the dog to dislike retrieving. I only know one person who force retrieved his dogs, he did retrieving trials with his Labs but I don't see him anymore (he only rarely came to class, and now I have moved clubs). I might consider it if I had someone to show me how to do it. I like the idea behind the clicker method (encourages interaction with the dumbell and positive experiences), and have a site bookmarked on how to do it (30 steps or so :D ) but am just really stuck as Diesel doesn't seem to be offering the behaviour I want.

Zoe will go on every walk, pee several times and also do a poo - no matter the time of day. Belle, my older kelpie cross, is the same. My parents (who look after Belle now) say that she won't poo unless on a walk - she will hold it till then so they have to walk her! Diesel on the other hand will pee on walks, but will only poo at home.

I am getting quite frustrated with the retrieve. My fault entirely, my first try at clicker training it. Diesel knows that mout over dumbell is good, and will try to rip it out of my hand to throw it! I must have inadvertently clicked when he was throwing the dumbell. So now back a few step to mouth over dumbell. My main problem is how to get him to hold it longer? If I let go of the dumbell to see if he will hold it himself, he drops it or throws it. I am afraid if I wait too long and he doesn't decide to hold it longer he will give up and not try to hold it.

I think you probably risk being bitten doing it.

I'd check out vets and find one that was experienced in doing patellas. It's a good idea to confine the dog while it is recovering - you'd be surprised at the number of dogs I have seen in that have broken the plates in their (broken) legs because the owner lets them run around on it! Crates are a godsend!

Yes, it was a steep learning curve with Zoe. If I had my time over with her, I would have changed a few things I did. It has taught me a lot though, and I can sympathise with people whose dog has issues (I have learned that not all trainers understand how difficult some dogs can be.) I do NOT plan on going through this again - it has unfortunately put me right off rescue dogs (sorry rescue people - no offense. You all do a great job). I am interested in getting to as high a level as I can in training with my dogs (whichever field I decide), and it is easier when you don't have so many other problems to deal with as well as the training. For a beginning serious competitor, I don't feel I need the extra challenge!

I got Zoe in January 2000 from Burwood pound - whoever their foster carer was (can't remember name - maybe Corinne?). Along with her brothers and sisters she was found dumped in a cardboard box at 6 weeks of age, with lots of fleas and little hair as a result and underweight. I got Zoe when she was 11 weeks old, they more active of the two pups left for adoption. Still had a ton of fleas, we were told a flea allergy (have not had any problems in this regard, although she developed demodectic mange briefly as a pup). I got her as I started the NDTF course, as a dog to learn with and do obedience and agility (my other dog Belle who I had with my parents was around 10 at the time, too old I thought to really try new stuff with). I took her to puppy preschool (admittently Bark Busters, but didn't know at the time how bad they were), also to obedience classes from 4 months, and to the local off lead park. We were doing fine until around 6 months when she started to become aggressive towards other dogs, at first just at a distance and fine close, then aggressive except towards certain 'friends'. Not really sure what triggered it. She doesn't have great nerves, becomes scared of things easily, so maybe someone too rough at the park? Have tried numerous things to fix it, the best so far to get her attention on me with food and heel past other dogs, keep it fast and upbeat. Works if I am able to see the dog in time and if it is not lunging at us. We are able to do group stays at ob and run agility off lead no problem, it is when things are a bit crazy and not structured we have problems. She has always been a bit skittish, loves hiding under beds and couches (now mainly in her crate), not good with fireworks or storms. Can be a bit on the noisy side when exciting things happen (kids in the pool, people having a loud party next door). I have trained her mainly with food and a check chain, although I do have a martingale and a halti for her (she hates the halti, but it is good for when she freaks out on a walk, or I need extra control). She is not a cuddly dog, likes a pat and the odd scratch (and giving kisses), but likes her personal space. She will be near your feet, not on your lap.

I am so sorry.

She looks VERY similar to my kelpie cross Zoe! Isn't that interesting! I'm tossing up giving agility another go with her. I would have thought clicker training would be the MOST difficult with a dog like this that does not offer behaviours . . . I tried it with Zoe (not originally clicker trained) and she would just sit there and do nothing . . . very frustrating . . . Here is my little troublemaker with her friend Diesel

My dogs have fine coats without my help I know someone who has a drizabone for her kelpie, and I thought about getting one for mine, because it looked so cool! But my OH would never allow it . . . and I don't know whether she would keep it on or just rip it off. May consider it when they get older though.

I wasn't having a go at anyone here . . . it was in response to an instructor's remarks. I have no problem if people don't know what it is, but I do have a problem with people who bring up classical and operant conditioning while instructing and get it wrong. It was like he was trying to show off all this stuff he knew . . . and he was wrong. My dogs also react to cues such as the car pulling into the driveway and me picking up their leads, treat bag. Very cute

You could try clicker training interest in the dumbell maybe. Although it can be difficult with some dogs and frustrating. Diesel caught on quickly, but Zoe who I had trained with different methods would not catch on. The dumbell would be there for ages, and she showed no interest in it whatsoever! I ended up sort of cheating to get her to get it in the end - I put the food behind the dumbell, so she had to reach across the dumbell to get the food. Eventually she had to put her mouth over the dumbell to get the reward, then hold it etc (she already knew hold, but would not reach for it). To get her to pick it up off the ground I had to hold the food under the dumbell LOL! (I couldn't just put it on the ground as she would push the dumbell away). She now will retrieve happily without any food (Except for the reward at the end after she brings it back and I take it off her).