BarbedWire

Sorry, but your attitude really pisses me off. No dog with aggression related issues should be in a dog park no matter what size it is and if it picks on a bigger dog then it is not unreasonable for the bigger dog to defend itself. A bigger dog should not have to stand there and just take being attacked simply because the attacking dog is smaller than it. Small dog owners need to take just as much responsibility for their dogs and their dog's behaviour as every other dog owner. My dog is fear aggressive (although doesn't bite, only puts on reactive displays). Would it be okay for me to take my dog in to a dog park, let him start a fight and then cry foul because the dog he started a fight with fought back and happened to be bigger than him? No, it wouldn't and if you were in that park you would no doubt be screaming about my vicious bull breed being in a dog park and starting fights. It's no different when it's a smaller dog and being fear aggressive is not an acceptable excuse. It is the owner's job to make sure their dog isn't put in situations where it has the opportunity to start fights and it is the owner's job to protect their dog both from hurting others or being hurt. I also take issue with your comment about the finger being bitten off and to you it looking like it was a pit bull. You made that comment with no real idea what breed the dog was and made assumptions and a statement that just perpetuates the the vicious pit bull myth that has been whipped up in to a frenzy by the media. We know you have an irrational fear of "pit bulls' but don't use your bias to further tarnish their reputation if you don't actually know what the breed of dog is that you're talking about. ETA: My dog is fear aggressive/reactive because of dogs like the one that started the fight in the dog park and yes, small aggressive dogs have contributed to his fear. Give me a break Snook. In my post I said I only saw part of the program. I did not know it happened in a dog park. The very first post says it happened in a dog park and even if it wasn't a dog park, that doesn't mean the small dog should be allowed to start fights with other dogs and any dog bigger than it be expected to just stand there and take it. Snook Nowhere have I said it is okay for a small dog to attack another dog. It is not okay for any dog to attack another dog, no matter what size. BTW I have owned large dogs and I was always very careful with them because I did not want them in trouble. I am also careful with my medium sized dogs too. I do not own a small dog and I don't particularly like them. What you said was that it's not acceptable for a big dog to attack a small dog because it was provoked and seem to think only small dogs develop fear aggression because of bad experiences with other dogs. Whilst I don't think it's okay for any dog to attack just because it has been barked at, I don't blame a dog for defending itself if it feels seriously threatened by the behaviour of another dog or is being bitten. My own fear reactive dog didn't bite in response to being attacked in daycare in June, despite being left with puncture wounds, a torn ear and other bite and scratch marks but I sure wouldn't have blamed him if he had fought back and hurt the other dog, no matter how big or small the attacking dog was. You said in the big scary dog thread that you own a 12kg mixed breed so I'm not sure what you think a small dog is but my understanding is that a 12kg dog would generally be in the small dog category. See bolded part. Do not misquote me. I did not say that only small dogs develop fear aggression. Any dog can develop fear aggression. BTW Small dogs are 10 kg and under. You seem to have a problem with me so I will not be responding to any more of your posts. but please read my posts and report them accurately.

If my dog is on lead with me, and she is attacked by a small dog and the little dog is actually biting - and I can't catch it to stop it, and my dog helps, I'm going to let her. If the dog is only barking and keeps its distance - I expect my dog to ignore it. But my dog has had enough bad experiences being chomped by little dogs - it's not right to expect her to put up with that without defending herself. I have also had little dogs chasing after me and it is annoying. What works really well for me (a trick I learnt as a child) is to bend down as if you are picking up a stone and then throw the imaginary stone at the dog. Most streetwise dogs take off at once and then you can put some distance between you.

Sorry, but your attitude really pisses me off. No dog with aggression related issues should be in a dog park no matter what size it is and if it picks on a bigger dog then it is not unreasonable for the bigger dog to defend itself. A bigger dog should not have to stand there and just take being attacked simply because the attacking dog is smaller than it. Small dog owners need to take just as much responsibility for their dogs and their dog's behaviour as every other dog owner. My dog is fear aggressive (although doesn't bite, only puts on reactive displays). Would it be okay for me to take my dog in to a dog park, let him start a fight and then cry foul because the dog he started a fight with fought back and happened to be bigger than him? No, it wouldn't and if you were in that park you would no doubt be screaming about my vicious bull breed being in a dog park and starting fights. It's no different when it's a smaller dog and being fear aggressive is not an acceptable excuse. It is the owner's job to make sure their dog isn't put in situations where it has the opportunity to start fights and it is the owner's job to protect their dog both from hurting others or being hurt. I also take issue with your comment about the finger being bitten off and to you it looking like it was a pit bull. You made that comment with no real idea what breed the dog was and made assumptions and a statement that just perpetuates the the vicious pit bull myth that has been whipped up in to a frenzy by the media. We know you have an irrational fear of "pit bulls' but don't use your bias to further tarnish their reputation if you don't actually know what the breed of dog is that you're talking about. ETA: My dog is fear aggressive/reactive because of dogs like the one that started the fight in the dog park and yes, small aggressive dogs have contributed to his fear. Give me a break Snook. In my post I said I only saw part of the program. I did not know it happened in a dog park. The very first post says it happened in a dog park and even if it wasn't a dog park, that doesn't mean the small dog should be allowed to start fights with other dogs and any dog bigger than it be expected to just stand there and take it. Snook Nowhere have I said it is okay for a small dog to attack another dog. It is not okay for any dog to attack another dog, no matter what size. BTW I have owned large dogs and I was always very careful with them because I did not want them in trouble. I am also careful with my medium sized dogs too. I do not own a small dog and I don't particularly like them.

Sorry, but your attitude really pisses me off. No dog with aggression related issues should be in a dog park no matter what size it is and if it picks on a bigger dog then it is not unreasonable for the bigger dog to defend itself. A bigger dog should not have to stand there and just take being attacked simply because the attacking dog is smaller than it. Small dog owners need to take just as much responsibility for their dogs and their dog's behaviour as every other dog owner. My dog is fear aggressive (although doesn't bite, only puts on reactive displays). Would it be okay for me to take my dog in to a dog park, let him start a fight and then cry foul because the dog he started a fight with fought back and happened to be bigger than him? No, it wouldn't and if you were in that park you would no doubt be screaming about my vicious bull breed being in a dog park and starting fights. It's no different when it's a smaller dog and being fear aggressive is not an acceptable excuse. It is the owner's job to make sure their dog isn't put in situations where it has the opportunity to start fights and it is the owner's job to protect their dog both from hurting others or being hurt. I also take issue with your comment about the finger being bitten off and to you it looking like it was a pit bull. You made that comment with no real idea what breed the dog was and made assumptions and a statement that just perpetuates the the vicious pit bull myth that has been whipped up in to a frenzy by the media. We know you have an irrational fear of "pit bulls' but don't use your bias to further tarnish their reputation if you don't actually know what the breed of dog is that you're talking about. ETA: My dog is fear aggressive/reactive because of dogs like the one that started the fight in the dog park and yes, small aggressive dogs have contributed to his fear. Give me a break Snook. In my post I said I only saw part of the program. I did not know it happened in a dog park.

re bolded part. It is not that I don't like them. As I said in the other thread I am scared of them, as are many people.

Okay. I do not know what breed it was. I am no pitbull expert. I thought it looked too big for a staffy. I agree that it was very frightened. I gathered it was often out. An irresponsible owner and the dog will probably pay with its life.

My pitbull remark was triggered by this comment from Remarkabull. 'Just saw that and was also pleased that no cries of pit bull were made.' O So Swift I have sympathy for all reactive dogs no matter what the size. Maybe the big dog will now be reactive too. I have no idea how it coped.

I saw parts of the program too. That small dog, if it wasn't already, will now most likely be a reactive dog. It suffered awful injuries and was obviously in a lot of pain. Its owner was also in a bad way. It is not okay for any dog to attack another dog, no matter what size. It is not excusable for a big dog to attack a small dog because it was provoked or vice versa. Owners of big dogs need to be very wary because their dogs can do so much damage. That doesn't mean that it is okay for smaller dogs to be aggressive either. Some smaller dogs suffer from fear aggression because of past frightening experiences with big dogs or because they feel that their owners are not capable of protecting them. Did you see the other news item in NSW where a man had his finger bitten off by a dog which in the footage I saw looked like a pitbull?

What a wonderful post Amax. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Amax and T your replies are so spot on. It is this that I wanted to discuss in this thread, not what I should and should not have done at the vets. The vet situation was meant to be an example to illustrate my point. I do admit that my initial reactions to certain breeds have been influenced by media stories, as I am sure have many others in our community and on this forum. I also feel obliged to put my dog's safety ahead of being politically correct and not offending other dog owners. Interestingly I have never really had close contact with a pit bull but I do think they are a very handsome looking animal. :) Perhaps we need someone to make a movie about children on an adventure with their family pet, an APBT, along the lines of the Lassie series or Beethoven.

Lunging and growling aren't the only sign of an impending attack -staring is one too, especially if the dogs body is stiff. Some breeds don't growl or lung before an attack. For example, if a dog is in prey drive it will stare and stiffen up (and often dip it's head). It is dangerous to assume this posture is are. Thankyou Megan, It was the eyes that especially disturbed me and the stiff body. Its eyes were locked on my dog.

Your fear is very real and because of it you are more aware of the dogs around you - that is a good thing, to be aware of them. If that is what it takes to make you more comfortable then you should stay aware of other dogs. I have a bull breed and he often has wrinkles between his ears :) He leans forward when he is looking at something (a lot of dogs do - boxers, husky's come to mind as forward leaning dogs). Just because a dog looks like it is leaning forward and staring, doesn't mean it is trouble. Sometimes it might - but not always. My boy stands up straight, his stance would be considered forward when he is looking at something that is interesting to him. If he is uninterested he wouldn't be looking at it. I guess as his eyes are more forward than some dogs, it might appear that he is staring as well. But I can tell you that I know my dog very well and I know that he would roll over if another dog looked sideways at him. I am comfortable having him on a loose leash at the vets and if I say 'stay here' he won't walk forward toward another dog but he will move his nose up into the air to get a sniff (that is what dogs do) and he will look at the other dog because he is interested in them. So I don't think it is inappropriate to have a look at a magazine in a waiting room with my dog because I know he won't move forward unless he is allowed to do so. Perhaps the other woman was the same as me and knows her dog well enough to know it wasn't an issue. My dogs have been run down and attacked by others as well, so I know what that is like - it is horrible to see your dog being attacked. I don't agree with people abusing you over asking them to watch their dogs. Some people might be offended that you are telling them to watch their dogs, when their dogs really aren't doing anything - maybe it is harder for you to see they aren't because you are fearful of you and your dog being attacked again. Someone once told me an old saying about dog behaviour: Nose to nose leads to blows Sniffing bums, always chums There is a whole lot more to dog body language and behaviour than that obviously. re bolded part How can you say this when you don't know me. I have asked people to watch their dogs usually when their dog is loose in an on lead area and is starting to move towards my dog. I don't like being rushed by loose dogs. I like people to have their dogs on lead when out of their own yards and if it is an on leash area. I did say in an earlier post that some owners of the breeds that worry me are lovely people and responsible dog owners and you obviously fall into that category. :) Eta Sorry when I reread your post I think I have misread it. Please ignore the above. I have had enough for tonight and I am turning off my computer now. I think you have totally misread my post.. I will bow out now as there really isn't anything else to say about it :) I did edit my post and I am sorry for misreading your post.

Your fear is very real and because of it you are more aware of the dogs around you - that is a good thing, to be aware of them. If that is what it takes to make you more comfortable then you should stay aware of other dogs. I have a bull breed and he often has wrinkles between his ears :) He leans forward when he is looking at something (a lot of dogs do - boxers, husky's come to mind as forward leaning dogs). Just because a dog looks like it is leaning forward and staring, doesn't mean it is trouble. Sometimes it might - but not always. My boy stands up straight, his stance would be considered forward when he is looking at something that is interesting to him. If he is uninterested he wouldn't be looking at it. I guess as his eyes are more forward than some dogs, it might appear that he is staring as well. But I can tell you that I know my dog very well and I know that he would roll over if another dog looked sideways at him. I am comfortable having him on a loose leash at the vets and if I say 'stay here' he won't walk forward toward another dog but he will move his nose up into the air to get a sniff (that is what dogs do) and he will look at the other dog because he is interested in them. So I don't think it is inappropriate to have a look at a magazine in a waiting room with my dog because I know he won't move forward unless he is allowed to do so. Perhaps the other woman was the same as me and knows her dog well enough to know it wasn't an issue. My dogs have been run down and attacked by others as well, so I know what that is like - it is horrible to see your dog being attacked. I don't agree with people abusing you over asking them to watch their dogs. Some people might be offended that you are telling them to watch their dogs, when their dogs really aren't doing anything - maybe it is harder for you to see they aren't because you are fearful of you and your dog being attacked again. Someone once told me an old saying about dog behaviour: Nose to nose leads to blows Sniffing bums, always chums There is a whole lot more to dog body language and behaviour than that obviously. re bolded part How can you say this when you don't know me. I have asked people to watch their dogs usually when their dog is loose in an on lead area and is starting to move towards my dog. I don't like being rushed by loose dogs. I like people to have their dogs on lead when out of their own yards and if it is an on leash area. I did say in an earlier post that some owners of the breeds that worry me are lovely people and responsible dog owners and you obviously fall into that category. :) Eta Sorry when I reread your post I think I have misread it. Please ignore the above. I have had enough for tonight and I am turning off my computer now.

Dogs who are staring and placing their weight on to their front legs can mean trouble but there is a lot more to it than just that and I would also be looking at whether it's a normal "hey, there's a dog" stare or a hard stare, whether the body is tense or relaxed, what position are the ears in, what are the facial muscles doing etc. Leaning forward on its own is just a willingness to engage. I'm sorry your dog was attacked. That must have been very frightening and upsetting. My dog has had his own share of bad experiences and I too am wary but it's helpful if it can be balanced and not become an all consuming fear (easier said than done sometimes). I too have encountered people who can be jerks about their dogs but for the most part people are usually pretty good. I think sometimes it can depend on how you approach them about their dog. I wouldn't say to someone that their dog looks scary or I think it might be aggressive etc as that's likely to put people on the defensive and make them react badly. I put the issue on to me and my dog and say that he doesn't respond well to dogs he doesn't know or was attacked recently (or whatever is most appropriate for the situation) and could they please not approach or ensure their dog stays by their side while we pass. Because I'm not saying there's anything wrong with their dog and have given a reason beyond "don't come near us", they're usually okay. You might not think it's appropriate to read a magazine in the waiting room and it's not something I would do for reasons I've already said, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with someone else doing it if their dog is behaving and they're not concerned about other dogs approaching. They can't read your mind and know that this increases your fearfulness. Snook re bolded part. When I first saw the dog it was just standing there and when it saw my dog it moved forward, came up on its toes, and stared. It was a hard stare and its body was tense. I had a few seconds to assess the situation. I do not know what the dog's normal body language (ear position, tail, facial muscles etc) is, so I could not assess them although certain breeds do have naturally stary eyes and upright body language. I came out from behind a display stand and there it was about a metre away. I retreated back behind the display stand and spoke to the vet who was following me. The other owner would not even have known I was there. My dog could have been about to attack her dog and she wouldn't have known.

This thread was actually meant to be more a general question about how people react when they see a dog they decide might be scary. However since it has focussed more on my particular situation I will give more information. At dog training I was taught that upright forward leaning dogs that are also staring can mean trouble. In the past one of my dogs was attacked. It was a very traumatic experience, and I am wary. I have sometimes asked people to watch their dogs and some owners have responded very aggressively. When I am in the vet's waiting room I assess every dog that comes in the door. I don't think it is appropriate to read a magazine when other dogs are present.

Thankyou to everyone for your replies. MUP some sage advice there. SL I think if the other dog had lunged or growled I would have started screaming. I am very afraid. I love my dog and I want to protect him. It was a very confined space and I had momentary visions of the other dog latching on to my dog and no-one being able to pull it off as has happened in some of the incidents described both here on DOL and in the media. How am I to know that the other owner was either capable or responsible? Sabbath I love your reply. If only all dog owners were so thoughtful.

Deleted. Double post

Thankyou Diva. I am clearly not as capable or as confident as you are that I can assess dog body language so quickly. Yes Snook I do understand what you are saying but the media reporting has got in the way and has sadly made me scared. Some of the dog attacks I have read about in the media and on DOL are so frightening. Dogs being ripped apart in front of their owners. It is the stuff of nightmares. I also believe that our dogs respond to what the handler is feeling and my fear would make my dog tense up which would not be helpful in the situation. I also am aware from other posts here on DOL that dog attacks are not all that common and do not always necessarily come from certain breeds, but my initial reaction is fear although I do tell myself that the next time I will be calm. From some of the posts so far it would seem that I am not alone with my fear.

Thankyou for the replies so far. I have never felt I had to avoid other dogs at the vet before and avoiding them is wise advice. I think Juice's comment is of interest though. 'I think we are all wary of certain breeds , for one reason or another.' And I was especially wary because I thought it was a pitbull mix. I am reminded of another situation when I was in the library carpark. A woman passed in front of my car with a Gordon setter on lead, and a loose American bulldog. She told me the bulldog was not hers and it had been following her for some time. It was wearing a collar with a phone number. I had a lead in my car so we put the bulldog on lead and I held the Gordon while she took the bulldog up to the library entrance and asked the staff to ring the owner. He arrived in his ute about five minutes later and it was all good. The point is that I was too scared to hold the bulldog because it was making a funny noise which could have been a growl and the Gordon was obviously anxious. The woman admitted that she was also wary and she was an instructor at the local dog club. I know from this forum that a lot of owners of these 'certain breeds' are lovely people and responsible dog owners but I am scared of these dogs.

I hesitate to start a thread on this topic but bearing in mind Haredown Whippet's signature which is a quote from Aristotle, 'To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing', I have decided to be brave. I am just wondering how others would react in the following situation. Yesterday I was at the vets. After my consultation I went to the counter to pay when I noticed a waiting dog which frightened me. It was around 30kg, red, possibly pit bull Rhodesian ridgeback mix, with wrinkles between its ears. Its body language scared me. When it saw my dog it stood up and forward and its eyes became fixated on my dog, which is a 12kg mixed breed. The dog's owner, a woman with grey hair, was not watching but was looking sideways at a magazine. I retreated back behind a display stand and remarked to the vet who had followed me out that I was scared. He suggested that I put my dog in the car and come back to pay my account which I did. It was the dog's eyes that really frightened me. Maybe it just wanted to play, but I didn't notice any tail movement, but then I was only looking at its front end. When I came back to pay I had another look from the side and I think it had just had pups and no longer looked so scary as it had relaxed. It was now the only dog in the waiting area. My question is how would you react? I do know that part of my reaction was that I thought it was at least part pit bull and yes after the media hype surrounding this breed I am wary. It was also the staring fixated eyes. I keep asking myself if I would have reacted the same way if it was a Labrador, but I have never seen a Labrador stand up like that with those eyes. Perhaps I have not seen that many Labradors. How about a mastiff? I don't really know enough about the breed to have an opinion. Rhodesian ridgeback? Possibly for me the same reaction. So how would you react in a similar situation? Please keep this thread civil because I am actually quite fragile (perhaps I am an idiot for trying to start such a thread but this is an anonymous internet forum after all and I don't believe I actually know anyone from this forum irl.). Please understand I am not having a go at anyone or any breed. :)

When my dog shakes it is often the precursor to a seizure. I am glad the OP is taking his/her dog to the vet and I hope it all goes well.

What will happen to the dogs? I thought I saw them being taken away.

Thankyou to everybody else as well for your useful posts. I have learnt something new. Colorbond fences do stop dogs barking at everything that goes past their house.

Thankyou skip, that's a really useful reply and it makes wonderful sense. She is easily spooked. She is a very anxious dog which I think might be genetic. I know about clicker training but I don't use a clicker. I use a marker word and then food as reward. I will start feeding her near the fence when the weather warms up. ATM they are fed inside. edited to clarify my comment

I haven't listened to the program but I know that pet ownership is good for my health. I could not survive without a dog. :D Someone once suggested to me that an affinity with dogs and animals was genetic. I have often wondered. I think it might be.