Cosmolo

Rusky- are you suggesting that anyone who uses aversives in training does not use positive reinforcement??? Given that the two together would be counter productive in your eyes?? How can it be counter productive to show the dog when they are doing the right thing AND when they are doing the wrong thing? It creates clarity not confusion. An aversive is anything that the dog finds unpleasant- and a good trainer will use the lowest level possible- ignoring the dog for instance is aversive for some dogs, not for others. The dog determines both the reward and the correction- not us. And your suggestion of finding an alternative to food is fine but does not work for many dogs. Many of my clients have dogs who don't care about food and have no interest in a ball/ tug or a pat when presented with a distraction. What do you propose i do with these dogs? What about the dog that loves food but already believes that more success will be gained from chasing the rabbit (or whatever other high level distraction) than returning for the food treat. And there is only so high you can go in terms of food value- its not that i present a dry biscuit and put it up against the bunny! I used to use positive training techniques only (when i first started training) so i don't think i am talking through my hat. After gaining more experience and qualifications, i am able to recognise that all dogs are different and require me to pull out different methods from my 'tool box'. I want to know that my 'tool box' is as full of different techniques and knowledge as possible so i can make judgement calls based on the dogs presented to me, not generalisations.

Rusky- just because you haven't met anyone who trials and uses aversives OR admits to using aversives, doesn't mean that they are not there. I find it interesting that you think you can't mix positive training with some aversives as this is the way i train with excellent results for my dogs and my clients. My youngest dog won her first trial at 15 months old with this training and she is a happy confident and successful dog who enjoys her work. Also, there is a reason why SARDA, customs etc use 'positive training'. The SARDA dogs have been trained since pups and believe that no other distraction will give them the same reward as finding a person on a search. The customs/ quarantine dogs are high drive and as aversives reduce drive- this is why they're not used. The dogs actually care if they don't get their reward as their work time is the only opportunity to earn that reward. (which i find is very different to alot of pet dogs) Scent detection dogs usually required to have extremely high food drive, or if they are to work out the back of an airport, mail centre etc- they will have high prey drives and be trained using an active reward. Dogs with average drive are simply NOT chosen for this work. I believe the police would work in drive rather than 'let go of that man and i'll give you a treat'. It is absurd to compare working dogs like this to the pet dog with a totally different life and set of expectations. In terms of a reliable recall, i think it depends on the dog's prior learning. If they have already learnt that chasing a rabbit for instance is the best thing in the world, it is likely you will need some kind of aversive. And no we are not talking about ripping the dogs head off, we're talking about devaluing the distraction (using some kind of correction) so that the reward you have is more appealing and the dog makes the right decision. Just because some of us train with aversives, does not mean we don't use positive reinforcement!!! You can combine the two with good timing and consistency. If you have a pup that has been carefully raised and trained, i think you can have reliability with 'positive' training. I also think you can if you have a high drive dog that you train in drive reliability can be achieved. But for dogs that don't care about food, or don't care about a toy, or don't care about a pat OR have learnt that the highest rewards come from something that is not you, i think aversives are necesary. My preference would always be to train in drive or using positive techniques- but i admit when its not going to work for a particular dog and have other techniques up my sleeve for those dogs.

For those scenarios- the first one i would repeat my heel command only. The second one, given that it is in training, we watch for Cosmo slowing down as she gets closer and we turn and run which works great for her as it changes her expectations, increases motivation and then she comes in quicker and closer. There's not usually any verbal command that accompanies that.

Agreed. And i know that there are some great structured training/ socialisation centres out there. My line of thought is more geared toward the mere presence of so many other dogs being enough to throw the dog (and owner) into the deep end and therefore the pup not being as open to learning or retaining as much as he/she could from a lower intensity environment to begin with.

While i agree with Kelpie-i and Haven, i do question whether going straight into a group situation is the best thing for this pup. Ask the training schools you consider if its possible to have a one on one session first so that you can be given the strategies to deal with the problem as it arises and you can have more confidence going into the group classes (with structured socialisation) I certainly did not mean to imply that the problem would be resolved in a few sessions with 1 or 2 dogs but i do think that a private session or two would be of benefit before heading into a group class. If the OP has a one on one with an instructor from the club/ training organisation he/ she chooses to attend, i believe this would make the first experience at the training ground less stressful for both owner and pup as some strategies would already be in place. If the pup is reacting to one dog on the street, the reaction may be intensified in a group situation with a large number of dogs present. I would prefer to introduce an appropriate technique in a familiar environment (so the pup can pick it up more readily with a lower stress level) with one or two dogs before sending the pup into a group class. I would be interested to hear what Haven and Kelpie-i think of this approach.

Have a look at our website below as we do consult in your area

I would not be using a squirt bottle on a young puppy. Did the pup improve over the puppy school period? What i think needs to happen would be to set up calm positive interactions between Mitzi and other dogs. This is something that i would not be doing with dogs i didn't know and suggest consulting a trainer (who has reliable dogs that they can use) for. I would want a dog or number of dogs that could be put into a drop or kept stationary while firstly dealing with Mitzi's reactivity and then allowing her to approach a calm, still dog in her own time. We do this regularly with our dogs and timid or reactive clients dogs with great results and minimal or no use of any aversives

I asked this question to Steve Austin a few years ago regarding my own dog who i couldn't get to hold things in her mouth- she was only 6 months old at the time. Steve demonstrated a forced retrieve with a dog or two and i don't think there is anything wrong with it when done properly. As it turned out Steve suggested a positive retrieve approach for my girl (basically building drive) which was brilliant. So, once again- it depends on the dog.

Parvo virus can last up to 12 months in the right conditions. You can also take it home to your pup if you walk through the wrong areas or come into contact with parvo itself. This questions comes up often and there are a few things that always amaze me- - A fully vaccinated dog can still get parvo virus. It is believed that if a vaccinated dog gets the virus it will not be fatal but i have witnessed a healthy adult dog who was fully vaccinated die form parvo virus. So where do you draw the line? Will you isolate your dog forever? - By the time a pup is fully vaccinated- usually around 16 weeks you have lost your 'critical period' the most important time for socialisation. While i don't suggest you take your pup to play in the off lead dog park with 20 dogs, you must provide some kind of safe interaction. - Having worked in pounds and shelters, i would say that 9 out of 10 dogs that were euthanased were so because of a serious behaviour problem rather than dying of parvo virus (which regularly ran through one of the places i worked, we thought it was gone only for it to pop up 6 months later when the kennels were having floors replaced, digging up some 'left over' parvo still present in the environment) - Where do sick dogs go? And where do you take your young pups for vaccinations? How many people carry their pups into and out of the vet clinic?

Agree with Erny- all of my dogs have been trained on correction chains and now wear a flat collar for everything except trial training for Cosmo. I find that normal collars/ martingale collars/ correction chains/ prongs tend to carry over more easily to off lead work than a headcollar simply because when the lead is loose, the dog would only feel that they have something around their neck as they would with a normal collar that they wear when in the backyard etc. Headcollars are an obvious feeling for the dog that they do not wear at other times so many dogs think the rules apply only on the headcollar. (i hope that makes sense) A concern of mine with the headcollars is that IF the dog finds the headcollar uncomfortable (and if proper desnsitising has not been done- which it often isn't) the dog may still feel an aversive is being applied when the headcollar is loose- even if he is doing the right thing. I see alot of dogs who have worn headcollars without proper desensitising who are very confused, with elements of learned helplessness- ie the dog gives up doing anything because they feel they can't avoid the correction/ aversive. As with all training equipment- headcollars can be great in the right hands and appalling in the wrong hands.

We train all dogs regardless of breed but it does cost more in insurance to do that which is probably why many places do not. When we said to the insurance company we would be dealing with restricted and/ or dangerous dogs they upped our premium by a significant amount. Feel free to look at the website below. Good Luck!!

You're welcome to arrange for your pup to meet with Otto and Jessie as well. Cosmo's not so great with pups and not sure about our new girl yet but Otto and Jessie are excellent.

Glen Eira Vet Hospital in Ormond is where i take my guys. We have also worked with Sandringham vet and i know one of their vets is moving to Waterson Vet Clinic on Canterbury Rd. Her name is Marie and she is terrific as well.

Wish we could help but we have found that not many people want training over the Christmas and New Year period so its very difficult to get a group together. What about trying ADT?

If the outlay is an issue, do you know anyone who would be able to lend or hire a bark collar or remote trainer? The innotek 30 day gurantee is great as someone pointed out. That would be my next port of call and only if that didn't work would i look at debarking.

Thanks for posting that working setters- isn't it just incredible. That is an awesome dog and handler and thats the kind of out command and control i would like to see in the French dogs rather than intensity on its own.

A better video to wtach is the Jerry Turning and Rudy Nationals- sorry but don't know how to link it. That dog is absolutely amazing and has the best out command i've ever seen.

The advance is a premium food but the best indication is how your dog does on it- My dogs did very poorly on the pro plan and i felt like i had to feed an awful lot of it just to keep their weight on. The Advance i have really been able to cut back and still have the dogs look and feel fantastic. I have spoken to all of the reps from the premium food companies about differences in their products and they all give conflicting information regarding nutrients etc. I must admit i was very put off by the pro plan rep i spoke to who told me raw meats/ bones were near deadly to dogs and that their digestive system can't cope with it, as well as slamming all the other premium foods which i think is unethical. She also said that adding anything to the diet is pointless and dangerous and while i realise her job is to sell the product, i didn't appreciate the scare tactics used to do so. I think your dog is your best indication.

Unfortunately i am not joking and i know of a positive trainer (who runs a training business herself) who euthanased her own dog rather than give a correction. If everyone could accept that dogs are different, handlers are different and different methods are appropriate in different situations, dogs and their owners would be a whole lot better off! All equipment has pros and cons and it is the skill and timing of the handler and trainers that people should focus on- not what piece of equipment they feel is appropriate.

Without wading into the debate too heavily, as a 'positive trainer' (silly phrase considering there is no such thing) i would like to hear your opinions on headcollars which are designed to be used with elements of negative reinforcement- applying pressure to a dog and when they do the action required, releasing that pressure. Why is that okay but yet a physical correction is not? How do you feel about a high drive dog that bolts to the end of a lead with a headcollar? Or a dog who has no food drive? Can you acknowledge that all dogs are different and the same method does not work for every dog? I would love to never administer a correction- but there are certain behaviours which an owner needs to stop immediately and positive techniques just don't cut it. Here is a question i would love the answer to as i have had more than a handful of 'positive trainers' answer yes and put forward recomendations for euthanasia with a dog or dogs that i have gone on to work with with great results, a happy dog and owner. Do you think that giving a physical correction is a worse option than euthanasia? * So much for not wading into the debate too heavily...

Pro Plan kibble is definitely smaller than the advance- i haven't seen every variety but the normal adult and performance (which my dog wouldn't even eat!) are quite small. Having used both, i would recomend the Advance over the Pro Plan anyway- had much better results with my 3 dogs in weight, coat condition and palatability.

dardaa, my opinion is absoultely yes- and that people of different ages and sexes including gentle well mannered children be able to interact with the pup in a safe environment. There is no situation where your pup is completely 'safe' from disease- even if you isolate you can still pass on the disease unknowingly. The importance of socialisation IMO outweighs many of the risks as long as you are sensible. I do find it interesting that many people who 'isolate' their pups until fully vaccinated, have no qualms about putting their pup on the floor in their vet clinic- where sick dogs go! Please socialise your pups- you don't have to walk them in high risk areas (dog parks etc) to do that as i said in my previous post.

Depending on the area in which you live and the type of vaccine- some vets only give 2 vaccinations while others give 3- feel free to ask your vet the difference but don't assume that either is 'wrong'. Socialisation doesn't have to be incorporated on a 2km walk- just allow your pup to see lots of different things, people and places- even from the safety of your lap or car. You can set up things in your backyard to mentally stimulate your pup by way of socialising which will exhaust her more than just going for a walk. Be aware that you can bring canine cough or parvo virus home to your puppy if you so much as walk through the park (where a sick dog may have been) or ride your bike through a similar area (i have known this to occur with a client who rides their bike through a park regularly- fortunately cough, not parvo). If a dog across the road has cough, your pup can get it without leaving the house or yard as many strains are airborne. Vets will tell you to virtually isolate the puppy until fully vaccinated, some trainers will tell you to take the pup everywhere for socialisation- i think moderation is the key and its sensible to fall somewhere in the middle of those two lines of thought.

I didn't mean to say the off switch was flyball specific- just that the lack of an off switch is being shown up as the dog does flyball which puts the dog into high drive. The OP may already have an off switch when the dog is low drive which is why my post seemed 'flyball specific', perhaps a better way to put it would just be teaching the dog a reliable off switch when in high drive (and all other situations of course)

Although you may not want to take your pup down to the local dog park before fully vaccinated i encourage you to remember the importance of socialisation at this age whether it be in your home or in low risk areas. What you do now can influence your pup in the lomg run so be cautious and sensible but try to avoid isolating the pup completely.