Cosmolo

4Paws, the course is Nationally recognised training and has had to undergo rigorous investigation/ application to be so. There certainly is a particular standard as well so i am not sure how you draw those conclusions. I think we should all start calling ourselves what Jules P said- trainers-who-work-with-bitey-dogs. Not quite as impressive as behaviourist but descriptive enough!

Lol Jules! 4paws- do you really mean that there is no such thing as a qualified dog trainer? What do you call people with nationally recognised dog training qualifications? :rolleyes:

I love nothing more than having a great relationship with my clients dogs, i have dog clients that turn themselves inside out when they see me and love to work with me. I would hate it if a 4-5 month old puppy was frightened of me after a training exercise. Hope they pay attention to the letter rastus

We are Saturday afternoons. I don't know of any clubs but there may be some private type trainers who offer Sat morning classes. Don't know any off the top of my head in your area though.

Oh dear Rastus.. Could you raise it with an anonymous complaint addressed to the whole committee? Just wanted to also add that things like this are very frustrating because they make people reluctant to let an instructor demonstrate with their dog- its really sad as sometimes using an owners dog to help explain a concept to them is very beneficial. When someone hands you their dog- they trust you- and you shouldn't do anything that breaches that trust or the dogs.

I agree that that sounds terrible but just wanted to add that with some dogs after other foundation work, "foot on lead" does not have to be nasty or horrible. It is a technique that should be used very carefully though and i think what i think when i think of that technique would be different to what you saw as well. I think offering an alternative was a nice and appropriate thing for you to do. It is hard though- people believe what they are told in many cases, even when they shouldn't.

I love targets so that sounds like a good read. They really are very versatile and helpful in so many situations- not just a trick.

I find it really really hard too Corvus. Could you tell me who the author of the othr book is? I have not heard of it before and would love to have a read.

I am so sorry. xxx

Sorry sas.

But thats precisely the scenario i am trying to avoid for a new owner Abed. Using a management tool 'to start with' is not a bad thing provided it actually aids the owner and does not negatively impact the dog- hence my preference in these situations for Sensible harnesses rather than headcollars. 90% of my clients would just about pass out if i showed them a prong collar (although i don't have an issue with them) AND they are not legal for use in Victoria anyway. I don't think my clients are stupid AT ALL- i just recognise that timing doesn't come naturally to all people and while someone is learning it, an aid which makes walking easier can be a good thing. If training aids weren't important why would you need a prong collar at all? It might be for a week, it might be for a month- that varies depending on the person. At an animal shelter i work with, the return rate is higher than i'd like and a common reason for the returns is that they couldn't walk the dog. So they didn't walk the dog and then other behaviours worsened. I agree that one lesson makes a big difference. But- they may adopt the dog one week and not see a trainer for 1-6 weeks- what should they do during that time? I agree with you regarding what most pet owners once. But i disagree that management doesn't have a role to play in some cases. Obviously i don't believe i am 'wrong' and neither do my clients- we use what works for them and the dog.

Alot of people find timing difficult IME. When a rescue dog goes to a new home, walking can be a great way to bond- provided the dog isn't dragging them down the street. For that reason I think its a great thing to (ideally for each dog as they are all different) find the piece of equipment that makes walking the easiest for a new owner- to start with. Training takes time and like dogs, not all people learn certain concepts as quickly as others. But if they have the opportunity to bond with and enjoy the dog, i find they are then much more likely to persist with teething problems that often occur in the first few months in a new home. Reasonable (not perfect) walking aids this process significantly IMO.

Yes Erny

Now that he has had such a bad experience i would not recommend not taking him out. He needs to go out and have some positive experiences- ideally i would have a trainer come and help you as getting it wrong could make it worse but short of that- take him in the direction of the scary place but far enough away that he will take food (make sure he is hungry!) feed and leave- many times, gradually closing down the distance. If he gets another fright- get him to move- take him for a short run past on the opposite side of teh road for instance.

Don't wait until February!!

Gorgeous pup! Just one piece of advice- start as you intend to continue, think about what you want the puppy to be able to do as an adult and then in very small steps start actively training those things. Also look up "Critical period socialisation"- must read information for new puppy owners.

I like the Sensible harnesses and use them quite a bit- i don't like the martingale attachment on the easy walk one at the front of the chest as i find it slips down alot, the Sensible harness doesn't do that when fitted correctly.

From Stu and I and our 5, thoughts with you. We loved Zoe too and i am sure she will be sadly missed by many. Are the other dogs coping ok?

Just a reminder to everyone to get their donations in, in the next few weeks. If you are stuck for ideas, dog and cat food, dog toys, flea treatments and wormers for both dogs and cats would be a wonderful gift. Medicated shampoo and vouchers for dog related services would also be a terrific contribution. Please remember that no donation is too small- we have had children using their pocket money to buy a dog or cat toy or collar and this is much appreciated. Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far.

Thats really interesting Kelpie i- i have had a dog recently that i felt was similar except over a shorter time frame. Lots and lots of LAT and a complete reduction in the anxiety that drove the behaviour so significantly- but every now and then i felt there was some habitual behaviour that we then corrected and this provided some additional reliability. There was no visible increase in anxiety at this point either but i would have been very interested in having a 'brain map' from start to 'finish' with this particular dog and to see whether the application of the correction in this case had an influence on chemical responses in the brain. Another question (and i am sorry if i am OT, just interested in others perspectives) When a dog becomes reactive/ aggressive at a significant critical distance and this distance cannot be practically maintained on a daily basis- how do you adjust (if at all) the process to suit? This is a particular problem in highly urban areas where in some cases, you can't get out the front gate without an encounter with a dog. Keep in mind in these same areas, yard sizes are often extremely small so outside exercise is a must do.

I agree with you Kelpie i. Just wondering what your thoughts are though- do you feel there is never/ very rarely an instance where the application of a correction that does block lunging/ barking etc is of any benefit?

I have had many many parcels from Clean run including some that have been opened and checked by customs without issue.

Either myself or Stu go down there for 2 regular clients- one a training walk regular and one a behavioural follow up regular. Hope that makes sense!

We service that area Erny, have 2 regulars down there at the moment as well as some extras every now and then. Let me know if we can help.

I agree with Kelpie i and Aidan too. I used to think aggression could be cured and i used to think using physical aversives was almost essential at some point in the process. Experience has changed my views significantly and while i still believe that in some cases application of a correction can be helpful, i know it is a simple behaviour block at a point in time- sometimes i believe this is helpful so that the other desensitisation processes can take place more easily, in other cases it is not needed. There is no cure for aggression- but you can raise thresholds to a point where the aggression does not present in the practical situations the dog is placed in with many dogs. Owner committment to the process is huge- i sometimes have difficulty initially getting people to do enough of something like the LAT- once they start and see snowballing good results- they tend to be more willing to do more repetitions!