Cosmolo

We do relays at times with various exercises to complete in the relay. Handlers sitting on chairs, sitting on the ground, standing with their back to the dog is also really good. Sits and drops on different surfaces and problem solving for advanced dogs- asking for a sit on stairs for instance. We now always play Leslie McDevitts "Look at That" (we call it "who's that) to start with as a great game for distracted dogs and something everyone at every level can do. We also have all the handlers in a line, give them all a number and walk forwards and as the instructor calls the numbers, the dogs sit or drop- the aim is to end up with a nice straight diagonal line of dogs and handlers. We do loose lead walking with just five paces forward and back (handler walking backwards) to make sure the dog is paying attention and get people using marker words when the dog turns to look at them as they take their first step back. We also play the 'smackos game' where during the class each time we see a dog or handler improve in any way, they get a smacko- whoever has the most at the end of the class wins a prize. Its not about the 'best dog'- its just about improvement and effort. Heeling or loose lead walking toward someone else, both people put their dogs in a sit, step over to each other and shake hands and then move back to release their dogs. There are a bunch of others too- we try and add to a list of exercises we have regularly so that we can keep classes interesting. ETA This is an interesting thread- i hope others continue to add to it too!

Welcome back. Your dogs were truly beautiful. We are thinking of you here.

You absolutely can give a correction on a flat collar. Some dogs are not sensitive enough to respond but some are, depending on how they've been trained.

Personally i'd get onto a behaviourist sooner rather than later. The biggest issue with inter dog issues is usually that they get left to develop for too long. ETA Its not necesarily strictly hierarchal- it can just be resource guarding too which still needs to be dealt with.

It is very possible that it is NOT play growling and without seeing the puppy its impossible to know for sure. Puppy behvaiour like this needs to be dealt with quickly and effectively. Stiffly stalking other pups is not something i would allow at a pre school of mine, nor would i allow someone else to handle the puppy and wind them up when they're growling. I would suggest two things- go and see Mark Singer, he will be able to let you know what socialisation and training is required for your pup if indeed it is not play growling (and having 'a go' at another pup is unlikely play- inappropriate at best) Get yourself a copy of Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt and pay particular attention to the "Look at That" game.

What does the trainer taking the class say about the behaviour? How have you reacted to the behaviour at class?

BMP- they can't/ won't do surgery on multiple legs at once and the surgeries do not act upon the arthritis and degeneration already present so while we would add maybe a few more years, it certainly wouldn't be more than 3-4 at the most. 12 months to keep a dog like him confined is not an option for us. The long term effects of this would be awful for him- if it were any of the other dogs, i'd think differently. If we do look at surgery, we will only consider doing the worst leg if the specialist thinks that is a promosing option or possible hip denervation. Golden rules thats a fair point so thats what we will be exploring with the vet from here on in. We haven't tried the acupuncture where they inject the balls- will do some reading on this. Thanks missmoo. And thanks Erny- thats a really helpful post.

He is back to 'normal' this morning. This is what makes it difficult- its like living on a roller coaster! To look at him today you wouldn't know that anything was wrong with him yesterday.

Thanks everyone. He is alot more comfortable tonight and alot happier- bit more back to his normal personality at least although still a little stiff.

Nekhbet, i understand your suggestions and thank you for them. I know you feel like you're repeating yourself but if you have a look at the dates of the last thread- it was some time ago- (ETA- just had a look, it was December 2008) what we were doing had been working and we were happy with his progess/ level of comfort. I snapped at you last time because of your manner- not because of your actual suggestions. Bowen was working- we were having success and this had not been a gradual decline. We did shove tablets down his throat consistently (like ester C and glucosamine) and found they had no impact at the time but like i said earlier, i am happy to try these again once we have the acute pain under control. I know many don't believe me when i say he will starve himself- but he will if he gets regular tablets in food and without food, when we shove it down his throat, he shakes and drools uncontrollably while trying to clamp his mouth shut- this has improved slightly but it is one of the factors that made us take him off tablets that didn't appear to make any difference. (he was getting about 8-10 tablets daily) He has a coat on and is inside all the time except for toileting- he never gets left in the backyard. The first priority right now is to try to extinguish the acute pain- keep in mind people that the crying has been for less than 24 hours, its not as though we have left the dog screaming since February.. Staranais- thanks for that, the vet said pretty much the same thing- his main concern is the effect on other joints and the limited improvement that may be gained at this point. My concern is not one surgery recovery- my concern is if we had to do 3-4 surgeries, locking him up for 6-12 months would definitely be an issue. futuredogtrainer- yes i am a professional dog trainer- NOT a veterinarian and i do not give veterinary advice to my clients beyond basic care. And what do you think i am doing now? I am going trough all options at the moment- given there are some things we have not done, i am not having him pts now. If we can't stabilise him and the pain, i know thats going to be on the table- i'm not going to keep him in pain for my own selfish needs but as i am sure you can understand it is VERY difficult for me to contemplate having to make that decision.

We just came back fom the vet. Looks as though the hips are worse than the elbows- though the vet said this can change from day to day. He squealed when the vet made him (gently) stand up and again when he touched and examined his hips. Vet said it is extremely unusual to have this level of acute pain given all the things we are doing and the lifestyle that Dexter has. We have steroidal anti inflams (and he had an injection too) to try and get the pain under control and the vet wants to se him again on Monday once (hopefully) the acute pain has settled. Likely that we will have to put him on a maintenance dose of anti inflams and see how that goes. Vet has same concerns as me regarding the effect of surgery on his other joints. He is still very umcomfortable- doesn't want to walk, cries sometimes when he does and squeals going up steps. We have 2 very low steps at the front of our house- they're not steep at all but its enough to cause him a great deal of pain. I'm not strong enough to properly help him either.

Thanks everyone. To those who suggested it, he does have regular bowen and although it helped immensely early on, it does nothing now. We also tried ester C and apart from the issues we had getting him to eat it (he will starve himself if you put powders or tablets into his food) it made no difference to his level of pain. Not ruling out trying it again though. Oh Ams Thank you for sharing that- it is a little comforting (and heart breaking) to hear that others have experienced this and made the choice not to go surgical. The emotional part of me says not doing surgery is not being a good dog owner but the logical part of me tells me there are very good reasons why. Swimming he loves- but he actually loves it too much- he gets overly excited at a beach or pool and if at a pool he will use his legs to push off the side of the pool while swimming so he can bounce around- but it only makes him more sore. We did persist for a while but after the initial build up of muscle (which he still has now) it seemed to make him worse. Dexter doesn't really do anything calmly i'm afraid.. I am going to have to go to my regular vet today and get some stronger pain relief- after a nights rest and the maximum anti inflams last night- he is still squealing this morning and has to be carried off the bed, up and down stairs. OH did it this morning but i have had to leave him on the bed because i'm not strong enough to lift him properly and he cries alot more when i try and help him. Thats the thing too Rommi- Dexter has a really high pain threshold so for him to show pain- you know its really hurting him. ;)

Thanks Rommi- that post really helped When i separate the emotion i say no surgery- but then the emotion comes back and clouds everything. He is my heart dog and i find it so hard to deal with this as well as the thought of him not being here. When i was younger i had a horse who injured himself severely. He had 2 lots of surgery and had to be confined for 3 months and was already a high spirited horse- it sent him nuts and he was never the same- even after his physical recovery. I regret going through with the surgery we gave him- benefit of hindsight. I am torn as to whether to let that weigh on my decision with Dexter too.

Thanks for the luck Bonnie. There's nowhere he could go where there are not other dogs unfortunately. And i can't say i'd trust anyone to keep him quiet- he's not the easiest dog to handle! It would be an indefinite time frame too- particularly if multiple surgeries were involved, and require someone to not work full time too- as they'd need to let him out of the crate to toilet him etc.

As some of you may know, our 2 1/2 year old cross breed Dexter has hip and elbow dysplasia- every joint is affected. We saw a specialist when he was younger and chose at that time to manage him conservatively where (after some experimenting) things seemed to go quite well for quite some time. On his very occassional sore days he would rest and 12 hours later was absolutely fine, didn't even require anti inflams although we had them on hand. We thought we had hit on a good plan that was keeping him quite comfortable considering the severity of his issues. We chose not to do surgery as we were concerned about the prospect of 12 months of surgery/ recovery/ surgery/ recovery. In late February of this year, things started to go downhill. Since then his bad patches are much more frequent and much more serious- he goes from bouncing around being normal to crying when he goes to walk and then becoming very distressed (he shakes and looks really worried) as i don't think he understands where the pain is coming from and why it happens. He also takes longer to 'bounce back' even with anti inflams and cartrophen injections etc. We went to the vet about 6 weeks ago and we trialled giving weekly cartrophen (no difference to the decline although some short term relief) as well as a J/D formula (which he wouldn't eat) and anti inflams when he is really bad (which now seem to make little difference). I will be taking him back to the specialist in the next week, as he is having another bad patch that started tonight. There is no consistent reason for the bad patches- some days he runs and plays and is fine, other days he does very little and is sore. Some cold days- no problem- some warmer days, he's sore. I think i know all of the options but my question is- how do you decide whats right? I am scared stiff of making the wrong decision. If we go surgical, my biggest concern is how his other joints would cope (as they do one joint at a time) and whether or not he could mentally deal with the recovery time- he is a very full on, intense kind of dog and although crate trained, i think he would go either a little nutty or completely insane. I have been doing some reading about the stem cell therapy- my concern is how far gone he is and whether or not it would have any impact, particularly without removing the bone fragments that must be in the elbows. And then i wonder if we just continue as we are- with management, knowing he's not going to live a very long life but we trying to make it a really good one. But what do i do if we then get to the point where he is in too much pain? So how do you make the right decision? Especially when thinking about it is the most distressing thought. :p

Great job lanabanana- do make sure you get the smaller size as if the harness is too big it can take the leg out from underneath them. Use plenty of rewards now- really great rewards so that you heaviliy reinforce the right behaviour. Dogs can desensitise (and learn to pull again) on any piece of equipment but if you reinforce enough it shouldn't be an issue. Well done so far!!

It does hurt to try ineffective methods though. Because each time a method, tool or technique is tried and failed, the dog becomes that little bit more resistant to training. How do you know what a dog needs without trying everything else first? Through experience. Many clients would not stick with you long enough to go through all your options Jeanne- they want a problem improved asap and sometimes it needs to be fixed asap.

Wow sounds awesome! Wish it was in Melbourne though!

What others are there this year S+T. Where is Susan Garrett going to be?

I will pm you

I will try to find the link to the complete study but this is a summary that was sent to me- ELECTRIC COLLAR SHOCK A research project from the Institute of Animal Welfare and Behaviour in Hannover, Germany compared the stress and learning effects of 3 different training methods in dogs: electronic training collar, pinch collar and quitting signal. The research by Schalke, et al is reported in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior, Vol 4, No 6, November/ December 2009. Of the 3 methods, the e-collar turned out to be the most effective and the least stressful Forty two police dogs, all Belgian Malinois, received a different training method on each of 3 test days. The dog’s behavioural and salivary cortisol levels were measured. Of the learning effect of each method, the electronic collar resulted in 39 of the 42 dogs stopping the unwanted behaviour, the pinch collar stopped 32 of 42 dogs and the quitting signal stopped 4 of the 42 dogs. Concerning the salivary cortisol levels, the quitting signal was found to be the most stressful. For the observation of behavioural reactions, the pinch collars were the most stressful. For this type of training it would appear that training with e-collars is the least stressful on the dog and certainly the most effective method.

We have an 18 month old with hip and elbow dysplasia in all 4 joints. He has good weeks and then will go through terrible patches- these are getting more frequent and more severe when they happen but they are unpredictable- we can't work out reliable triggers. When he used to be a bit stiff, a half day of rest would be absolutely fine but now he needs at least 2 days of pain relief. He has the highest pain threshold of any dog i know so to hear him cry when he tries to walk is awful. :rolleyes:

Yes but those points can be made without declaring anyone who differs irresponsible, dangerous, unprofessional etc etc. You can have a different opinion without someone else slamming you personally to make theirs.

Great videos!! I have 2 danes (from the same breeder, owned by the same person) at advanced training who really are terrific- not quite as quick as your girl Sas, but pretty impressive all the same. They sure can do it! Targetting and then free shaping is great to build confidence for many dogs

Secret kei- I can't say what i would use on a dog likely to redirect as this has been my whole point- it depends on the dog, on the handler and the situation and each part needs to be assessed before making a decision. And again- thats what i meant with regards to the tool vs technique, management etc. If someone uses a headcollar uses a technique that only manages the behaviour- thats not the fault of the tool, just as with a check, prong etc.