Cosmolo

And you don't think people get dependent on their correction collars and prongs as well? I'm not debating the fact that some people just use tools to manage behaviour- but to suggest this doesn't happen with all tools is misleading IMO. If i thought a dog was likely to redirect, i would not be using a front connecting harness either.

Black bronson, are you for real??? I guess i must be weaker than a 12 year old child because i could not do enough, with a correction collar (high on the dogs neck, just behind the ears) to get her off my dog. I physically could not cut off the dogs air supply so it would have made no difference whether the dog had a chain or any other kind of collar on. (NB- this was not 'training' of course and not something i would EVER recommend- this was trying to save the life of my dog) And i agree with Aidan so i guess that means i am not reputable or experienced Secret Kei- its not about snapping the dog out of anything in that situation- the dog is too far gone. A front connecting harness gives you the leverage to be able to walk away and take the dog with you- not 'snap the dog out of it' ETA- in answer to your question BB- yes.

Clients don't tell me how they want to train because as you know, they're not sure themselves. What i am saying is that i assess the whole picture before deciding on a training regime and that includes the dog AND the handler. I don't decide that just because i can do XYZ with a dog and get a great result myself, that thats what i will do.

Given that you've tried a few pieces of equipment, the best thing to do would be to have a trainer help you to determine what would be best for you and your dog. Whereabouts are you located?

BB- sometimes an owner DOES need a headcollar or front connecting harness to teach loose lead walking!! What is wrong with that? Why is that worse than an owner needing a prong or correction collar to teach the dog to walk well?

As a 60kg female who did have a very unfortunate incident with a dog in drive trying to kill one of mine- trying to block the dogs air supply did absolutely nothing anyway. When you're in that situation, the last thing i'd be thinking about is i wish i had XYZ piece of equipment- i'd be extracting myself from the situation and then working out how to avoid getting into such a dangerous position again. BB- i think you should use a front connecting harness before you judge them.

If a dog put there head down and wouldn't look at the owner and they were wearing a correction collar, i know people who would be jumping up and down But regardless of whether there is or isn't stress associated with pieces of equipment- the more important factor IMO is how quickly the stress is resolved and what the dog gains after the stressful event. Most dogs with any issue are already stressed too- confused, anxious, frustrated etc. I want to know how the dog feels at the end of my training session and how that compares to the beginning-minor peaks and troughs in the middle are a lesser issue. BB I can assure you that if i yelled at my clients and stressed them to the point that they were scared of me- they would not come back to training. And how on earth would that be beneficial to anyone? Clients will not pay to come to training and be abused or intimidated.

I mean this with respect- but i really think some people need to go out and work with a few hundred dogs and owners (now- in todays society) and then come back to discuss further. Not everybody listens to the trainer they hire. And some that do are not capable of doing certain things- no matter how hard they try- this is why flexiblity within a trainer and a wide range of techniques is a good and powerful thing. Reality is worlds apart from 'ideal'.

Agreed K9- the more people we can get coming to training before they get a dog and/ or before they have a problem the better. But we will also always have those that for whatever reason left it a little late and thats why it is a good thing that we can add new, quality tools to our training kits- to benefit dog and owner.

Aidan said it better than me!

But surely sometimes its also making the best of a bad situation. No good going on about how they should have purchased a different dog when they have their dog (that they love) in front of them. I want them to know enough to not make the same mistake again- but it doesn't change the situation as it is in front of me.

Black Bronson- what would you suggest we do with people who are not as committed or as consistent as we'd like, with people who did in fact choose the wrong dog for them, people that 'shouldn't own dogs' but do etc etc? Being direct about fixing something doesn't make a single bit of a difference if its an impossible or impractical direction.

Who cares if ethical, responsible breeders make money from the sale? Provided it does not impact the care, health testing etc of the dogs their breeding from, whats the problem? Just because we are dealing with animals doesn't mean people should do things for free. I see it all the time as a trainer, vets and vet nurses see it too and breeders sem to be copping it more and more. The love, ethics, skill and care provided is not eroded by the fact that someone makes a profit- unless it was never really there in the first place.

As others have said and as i have said before. It does not matter what i can do with a dog. It does not matter if i can have that dog walking great on a prong, flat collar or otherwise. It matters what the owner can do and i see NO issue with making an owners life easier through methods and/ or tools that are not detrimental to a dog. I have recently started using sensible harnesses- front connecting harnesses available only through America at the moment (there are a few similar ones available here but the slight differences i don't like as much) The success CLIENTS have had with their dogs, with these tools is great and i will continue to use them where appropriate, just as i continue to use other tools when appropriate. This rubbish about some tools manage, some tools correct gives far too much value to the tool and nowhere near enough to the skill, timing and consistency applied by the handler using it. A prong collar can be a management or a training tool. A headcollar can be a management or a training tool. Owners are not the same as they were 30 years ago Dogs are not the same as they were 30 years ago Given we know thats the case- why wouldn't techniques and tools alter over time? WHy wouldn't we have more tools to choose from? We haven't stuck with black and white TVs just because they worked perfectly fine 'back then'.

Black Bronson, have you ever met someone that, regardless of the amount of training they have completed, could not use a correction collar properly? Or could not use it to the degree required for their dog? Front connecting harnesses are a godsend for some of my clients and their dogs. It allows them to control the behaviour enough so that they have something to reinforce, rather than wrestling with the dog all the time.

I've worked with horses and having my own again recently reminded me of a few differences i had forgotten about! I'd love to do some stuff with big cats- that would be awesome.

Well we have only had Gilbert for a few months but we keep in touch with his breeder every few weeks. We exchange photos and stories as she kept a Jack puppy bitch from the litter too. She is so lovely- always reminding us we have an open invitation for lunch etc which is so nice. To be honest i never imagined keeping in touch long term with a breeder but i am certain we will with Gilbert's breeder. She was just sent this photo tonight!

Dog does not like drums that son plays.. And new boyfriend doesn't like dog.

Agree. And lol at the Collie!

Actually thats a good point Vickie. I agree with you that it depends what you're training. I am the same for agility- i was just thinking obedience before. Cosmo did her best agility runs when she was a total nut before it! And i have people as well who won't train with toys because the dog goes 'too silly' but their idea of too silly is very different to mine!!

In teaching phase- low level arousal. Training phase- medium and when i am proofing- high levels of arousal please.

But that would depend on what the skill was. I'm with sas- who knows? We'll never know. However, i do resent the thinking that humans are more intelligent in every way, superior, the only ones capable of emotion etc. I wonder what animals would say if we asked them.

Its funny you should post this as i was just talking to someone today who purchased a puppy from somewhere who desex, microchip and vaccinate before rehoming, offer a 3 year health guarantee and pups are raised in the house for the first 6 weeks, amongst other things. I have met about 30 puppies from this place- all of whom have been nice dogs with reponsible owners. This raises ethical dilemmas for me- are they a puppy farm? Are there dogs of theirs ending up in shelters etc? So many questions!

For those who don't vaccinate- what do you do about boarding kennels, dog daycares, dog training or anything that requires a C5?

We will be offering agility in South Melbourne in the next few months- just ordering equipment now!