Cosmolo

I am not religious in any way but i do believe our dogs wait for us somewhere after they passed. I had this reading done at our wedding which sums up pretty well how we feel. They are our other eyes that can see above the clouds; our other ears that hear above the winds. They are the part of us that can reach out into the sea. They have told us a thousand times over that we are their reason for being: by the way they rest against our legs; by the way they thump their tail at our smallest smiles; by the way they show their disappointment when we leave without taking them. When we are wrong, they are delighted to forgive. When we are angry, they clown to make us smile. When we are happy, they are joy unbounded. When we are fools, they ignore it. When we succeed, they brag. Without them, we are only human. With them, we are all-powerful. They are loyalty itself. They have taught us the meaning of devotion. With them, we know a secret comfort and a private peace. They have brought me understanding where before we were ignorant. Their head on our knee can heal my human hurts. Their presence by our side is protection against our fears of dark and unknown things. They have promised to wait for us... whenever...wherever--in case we need them. And we expect we will--as we always have. They are our dogs.

How do you define 'soul'?

That we can agree on.

Point taken Jackie- if i misinterpreted i apologise- but that is how i interpreted your statement, not deliberate misquoting. But i don't think you understand that just because an owner isn't there, there are still people there, people to be distressed, cry and yes, even complain. So i honestly don't see any difference between the euthanasia of a shelter dog and the euthanasia of a pet with owner present. ETA But you didn't respond to my query about your dog still thrashing after sedation? Of course you don't have to but it is worth mentioning given your suggestion that sedation is kinder and less stressful to the animal.

No it would not be better as a precaution to sedate when the sedation itself creates further problems for many and leads to the dog being unbelievably stressed for a further 20 minutes. It makes it a longer process!! Pet owners have the right to know that there are different ways to euthanase and to discuss with the vet what they think is best for their dog and how the procedure will be done. ETA Jackie, didn't you say your dog did fight the sedation as well? ETA2 """Lucky was sedated and he still thrashed and fought the sedation"""

I am suggesting they shouldn't, not that they don't- i just recalled my experience of having a vet do so. 100's of euthanasias, no thrashing of any kind and at least 3/4 of those were physically healthy dogs capable of fighting. I am also debating your assertion that how a shelter dog passes doesn't matter as much. We didn't need to hold dogs down while the lethabarb took effect- we held onto them to hold up the vein and held them for the remaining seconds after they passed so that they didn't hit the floor, not to stop any thrashing- there never was any. I don't doubt that your experience was different and i am pleased that for your dog the sedation was the right thing. But i don't believe it is for most. I know this is a little OT but i think its important to bring up so that owners know they have options to discuss with the vet beforehand. People usually aren't informed about euthanasia until they are in a highly distressed, emotional state- better for them to be aware of different procedures beforehand.

deelee- i am so truly sorry. I was not this dogs owner and it still had the most profound effect on me, and i am someone who unfortunately has witnessed, assisted many euthanasias. This one made me sick.

I find the very thought that staff in a shelter would find it acceptable to have an animal pass stressed and thrashing really quite insulting. That is so far from the truth, its absurd- ANY animal who passes from one life into the next should be as peaceful as possible, not just those fortunate enough to have loving owners. When i took this particular dog to be pts who was sedated, the pure terror in his face as he lost control physically was awful- his mind was still active but his body was giving way- and he was stressed for 20 minutes while they waited for the sedation to take effect, then restrained him a second time for the second needle. I felt sick to my stomach and bawled about it afterwards- especially when the vet said at the end "i assume you've seen that sort of thing before". Thank goodness this dogs poor owners DIDN'T take him to the vet and witness what i had to. Without exception, every euthanasia without sedation with 6 different vets was peaceful and quick. Thats why i don't see the point of sedation.

Oh my god.. i have no words. How could they!!??

Different opinions based on different experiences- i appreciate yours, but they are very different to mine. I would now always not want sedation because of what i saw in the one dog who was sedated vs hundreds who were not. ETA I never saw a dog thrash around once injected with the lethabarb and we held onto them until they were gone. I never saw it be anything but peaceful (and these were animals who were in a strange place with strange people- they had every reason to be stressed) until i saw it with sedation first.

I have seen hundreds of euthanasias without sedation. If you are going to restrain and inject an animal once, isn't it more stressful to have to repeat this? This dog was far more stressed going through the restraint and injection twice than ANY dog (and i have seen many stressed or aggressive dogs pts) i have ever seen euthanased. JMO based on my experiences. Lethabarb takes effect rapidly IME- i never saw a dog or cat thrash when pts- they literally peacefully went to sleep.

I have 3 bitches and 2 dogs- yes it can work. BUT, its not something i would generally recommend for those who have the choice. If you do decide to do it, carefully consider your leadership abilities as well as how much training etc you will be doing as i believe this has a significant impact. Have you had a multi dog household before?

I haven't been there for my own dogs as i haven't had one euthanased yet but i have seen many dogs at the shelter put to sleep as well as taking a clients dog for them. The latter was horrible- they sedated him but not enough and let him stress for 20 minutes before injecting the lethabarb. I don't understand the point of sedating dogs before euthanasia.

I'd go GSP or Vizla from a quality breeder.

Have seen it before but it doesn't make it any less devastating. I have held up veins, puts animals in bags after euthanasia- fortunately it was a low kill shelter so there were not hundreds in a day. I had a friend who worked at a cat shelter and one person spent their whole day, every day drawing up the needles. Its something you never forget.

Was the puppy socialised outside the breeders home before rehoming? Behaviourist asap IMO

Yes all 11 week old pups mouth/ bite- and many of those pups continue to mouth into adulthood if not taught otherwise.

Four Paws K9 Training would be the closest i'd recommend. Otherwise i'm not sure if Nekhbet on this forum runs puppy classes around there? Our closest class is South Melbourne so not the closest! ETA I think a private lesson might also be of assistance to you to stop some of the problematic behaviour you're experiencing as well.

It is actually quite a significant issue that they are running away when the other puppies come near- i suggest you do some reading on the critical periods of development and find a puppy pre school where your puppies gradually gain confidence if they are not doing so where you are attending.

I'd love to know how many complete temperament assessments you have seen tarope. RSPCA branches ARE different- some are good, some not so good.

Uncomfortable sensation- yes, completely agree. But choking? How do you define choking sensation?

Dam ;) Running Canberra seminars that weekend

The world really needs more JRT/ terrier crosses.. I understand why people disagree with mandatory desexing, but i also think we need to stop people from breeding from dogs just because they're 'nice'. How do we do that?

Interesting responses, thanks everyone. Could we now ask when does deprivation with a training aim, go too far? Where is the line?

But they're not just saying RSPCA ACT is bad- there are wild accusations in there about killing of dogs and breed discrimination too. These things are not opinion when someone is stating them as fact and they are incorrect.