Cosmolo

I think part of the reason he's so fussy with toys is because he has access to all the things that he is stealing which he thinks are so much more fun than any toy you have for him. Consistent restricted access to the things he can't have and then encouragement toward the things he can have. Consistency is everything. If that fails, you may need to booby trap a couple of things.

I don't think there is any question that there is high risk equipment and lower risk equipment in certain situations. Large group class situations where instructor attention is limited and divided between particpants is not the time to introduce high risk equipment. If someone has had training with the piece of equipment prior, i have no issue but to give a headcollar or correction chain to someone who has never used one, in a group of 15- is a risky strategy. The reality is also that sometimes, group classes aren't the best option for dogs- convincing owners of that fact can be a challenge particularly when they are 'group training or nothing' in their approach. Perhaps we would be better off considering certain equipment and associated techniques high and low risk rather than 'good' and 'bad'.

Jeanne, as i said earlier i have no issue with trainers choosing their preferred techniques. My issue comes into play when, if that technique does not work for a given dog, they do not try something else, refer elsewhere etc- give people other options. Some clients are told that aversives are cruel, will damage your relationship, will be abusive etc, making people feel guilty if they feel they need to use one. Thats what i have issue with. And while i know alot of people went from using aversives to positive only training- trainers that have done the reverse are also not uncommon- i know because i am one.

Aidan what would you class as ritualised aggression? And physical force in the context of dogs with dogs? The best dog leaders i know don't engage in fights but they do use exceptional body language and some physical contact. I completely agree with your first paragraph too. With regards to not using stress in teaching- do you think there is stress involved in all learning though? Some of the best training without physical aversives involves using frustration and extinction bursts to get improvements in motivation, speed etc.

I don't want give in a collar. To each their own.

That was really interesting ptolomy- can imagine it working quite well so now i will have to give it a try. Does anyone in here do doggie dancing with their dogs? I am having my first lesson next week so hopefully i will update in here as we progress. I am having a private lesson to see if the dogs are suitable and i like it and then will go from there!

My OH makes our dog collars from 'fibretek'/ plastic coated pvc/ strapping- same product just has different names. I prefer them to leather because the sea water doesn't adversely affect them like i believe it would with leather. I went through collars every 3-4 months before getting these and i think they are now 2 1/2-3 years old.

Same here Nek Why is stress such a bad thing? Isn't stress only a bad thing when it cannot be overcome or dealt with. Learning is stressful- regardless of how its done. Teaching pups and dogs to cope with stress is NOT a bad thing. Its the basis of socialisation. If there was never stress, nothing would change, no one would learn. Our job is to minimise NOT eliminate stress.

Our dogs take in in turns- 2 dogs on the bed at one time is okay but more than that is too squishy!

Don't forget socialisation to the world is crucial at this age. A good puppy pre school would be very helpful. They are cute puppies. :D

I need to get some video of my dog Cosmo using positive punishment and positive reinforcement with dogs- she corrects puppies when needed and then, as they adjust their behaviour, she rewards them with interaction and play. She can tell what pups need what kind of interaction or correction (as can a good trainer) and i see no reason not to look at what she does as the greatest example of how dogs learn.

What poodlefan says is so true. Many people and dogs that i see have been struggling for months or years. I also have probably 50% of people attend puppy classes who think i am just trying to 'upsell' when i talk about utilising further training in the formative years of a dogs life- i hear from them much later on- 2,3 years later in some cases where the dog now has significant issues and they want them fixed or the dog gone. ;) And they are just the ones i hear from- who knows what happens to some of the others. Taking the easy way out is not a negative when its done with the best interest of dog and owner in mind. Time is a luxury many dogs don't have and don't think that 'attacks' on dogs only happen when someone uses aversives- the frustration that builds when a method takes longer or just plain doesn't work is NOT pretty. No one considered my question about the stress of an extinction burst vs use of an aversive instead.. Many no pull harnesses just take some of the strength/ weight out of the dog but on their own they don't prevent pulling to start with or once the dog desensitises to the harness they pull through it anyway. I quite like the sensible harnesses that connect at the front though- great use of negative reinforcement. :D

Tarope- do you have direct experience with the Canberra branch of the RSPCA?

Poodlefan :D I don't think anyone disagrees that positive training can be and is a wonderful thing for many dogs, teaches many behaviours far more successfully than compulsive methods etc. But we need to remember that training without aversives is not always in the best interest of the dog and/ or handler. Extinction training can be an awful lot more stressful than an aversive in some cases for the dog AND the owner- so why do we do things that don't serve the dog/ handler combinations best interest? The answer lies in closed-mindedness and lack of flexibility- as the dog is getting stressed out of its brain going through an extinction burst, some smile and say 'well at least we haven't used any aversives'. What would the dog have preferred? I agree with you too Jeanne- people should choose the course that suits them. But then be honest about what dogs you can and can't train and don't label others who are different or use different methods as abusive/ cruel/ dogs shut down etc. In a recent thread (or maybe this one?) i gave an example of my fearful dog coming on in leaps and bounds through aversive and positive methods and the first question asked was- " are you sure she isn't shut down". Its these assumptions that get on people's nerves JUST as the assumption that all positive trainers are cult extremists. I've met a number of the latter- i can think of 6 off the top of my head, but i have also met 3 that aren't and i respect them for it even though they choose different training methods to me in some cases.

I don't live in Canberra and i still know that RSPCA ACt is probably one of if not the best RSPCA branch in Australia. I have heard Michael Linke speak and was seriously impressed. I have met staff from the RSPCA who attended seminars of ours and found them to be terrific- they have some great programs in place there already too. I can speak highly of RSPCA Albury as well- they are NOT all the same. I'm sure there is more work to be done but the disparaging comments here are WAY off the mark.

Fair point Huski- i guess to define it, it needs to be deviating from what you would do in the absence of training the dog. So lets say for instance i have a dog who gets fed 2 cups of food per day in 2 meals. I don't think its deprivation if the dog gets 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup in training at the end of the day. So if there is normally 12 hours between meals and we go 24 between a meal to increase the dogs drive for training, thats deprivation. If there is normally 24 hours between meals and we go 36 or 48, i think thats deprivation. I'm with you with regards to the toys Staranais- i don't find it makes any difference for my 3 moderate- high drive dogs.

Huski- would you not give access to the drive toy or to any toy? ETA I think general fasting is good for dogs too but general fasting is differentto doing it as part of a training program- not saying there is anything wrong with the latter, just that its to achieve a different purpose.

I have been having some interesting conversations about training dogs and using deprivation and would love to know what others do and where you think the line is drawn. So, with a training aim in mind, do you deprive the dog of any of the following- and at what point and for what duration would you use them? Food in terms of meals Food in terms of treats Activity (eg, utilising a crate or pen before work) Restriction/ removal of toys Restricting contact with people Do you use these thing every day? Just before work or a big event like a trial? Where do you personally draw the line in terms of the level of and duration of deprivation? And just in case anyone misinterprets, i do NOT mean the word deprivation to have any kind of negative connotation.

Dito to Diva and Poodlefan. Some of the commens here are so ill informed they are just frightening..

Gosh that post brought back memories Willow. Do you remember the litter of puppies who were raised at the shelter with Mum and 2 weeks away from being made available they all contracted parvo and had to be put to sleep.. The smell is something that you can never miss- awful stuff.

I agree with you PF- i don't think its any better at all. When i run perfect match seminars, i talk to rescues about colour coding dogs by behaviour categories rather than age or size. (I talk to rescue groups though rather than a collective database where breed specific rescues etc can advertise- i think someone looking for a purebred dog should be able to find one and then narrow down further) Pet rescue wouldn't be able to do any behvaiour categories/ colour coding though because it would mean all rescuers/ shelters using the same kind of assessment procedures. I'm now off to my little dream land where that actually happens...

Although i don't agree- i think the reason behind not listing by breed is to combat those people who want a breed based on the looks of that breed that is not suitable for them in other ways and in doing so, miss a dog that may be perfect for them just because it is of a breed they would not look at. I think having an advanced search option would be good so that those people set on a particular breed could click advanced search and select that. And no- don't feel guilty. A few people made me feel guilty for getting a pedigree puppy instead of a rescue recently but i know i made the best decision for us at the time. And next time i will do the same- make the best decision for us- it will likely be a rescue that time.

Good point SSM- some people are great dog trainers, but not people trainers and some people are the reverse. To get both in the one package is not terribly common- most trainers have to work hard at one or the other. Great trainers are flexible, calm and patient. Great trainers know when to push and when not to- for BOTH human and dog. Great trainers know what they don't know and seek new knowledge from others- even if they don't agree with everything they are told. And one pretty important thing to keep in mind- great trainers take the good, relevant things from old methods and leave the bad. Great trainers take the good, relevant things from modern methods and leave the bad. Great trainers don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and i have never met a great trainer who is an extremist in any direction.

Where does it say black bronson is a trainer? I can't find it

Don't be concerned Nicole- just be aware that there are a range of methods and IF after pre school, you feel your pup may benefit from another approach you can seek it out. Go along and see how you go.