Willem

...the problem these days is that people swapped the-journey-is-the-reward attitude for the-end-justifies-the-means attitude - not only regarding dog breeding, but also wrt other realms.

Willem There is a not very subtle difference to the dog applying the force, and the human applying the force via the leash. But personally I prefer "reward based" rather than "force free". There are times when I use "force" not so much as pushing my dog into doing something but stopping her from doing something. But she's usually the one applying the force. I apply the equal and opposite force in the same way as if I'd tied her to a fence post. So if a dog launches after something it is not supposed to be chasing - I don't want the owner letting it go. there is no difference, not even a subtile one - or you would prove Newton (actio = reactio) and Einstein (relativity) wrong, which would be quite interesting. Fact is that the dog can't apply a force on its own if you don't apply the force on the other end of the leash! You want to move, but the dog doesn't results in tension in the leash, the dog wants to move, but you don't results in tension in the leash, you both want to move, but in different directions or with different speed results in tension in the leash. The difference between you and the fence post is only that you can move, the post can't. For the training there is no difference regarding force respectively who applies the force: you and your dog walking in different directions will result in tension in the leash. Saying that it is the dog that applies the force (and that the exercise is therefore 'force free') because he doesn't follow you is ignoring your existence and intention - but you are the reason why there is the tension in the leash! The purpose of the leash / lead is to 'force' the dog to follow the handler respectively to respond to the handler's movements, not the other way round - so who applies the force? If you want to do a force free training: use a string instead of a leash...(and no collar grab games). Eta: the problem of the 'force-free trainer army' is that they mistaken the objective of the training for a suitable method to get there.

I did both of these things at my first club. And eventually they booted all the reward based trainers off their committee so we all left. It's made things a bit cramped at the agility club. I get quite upset when I see other people "correcting" their dog by scolding it, or yanking it round. And I don't mean when the dog gets to the end of the lead - not following - I mean that sharp yank on the neck. I've seen more than one *instructor* grab their dog (or worse - someone else's dog" by the choke chain and lift it off the ground because - "Dog knows what it is supposed to be doing". Maybe - but you don't. So I can't train around people who are violent with their dogs. There is always another way to get what you want. And yes - I pissed off a lot of instructors. They had a self destructive cycle among the instructors - the instructors that are in the instructor sub club are not beholden to the club president or committee other than the "chief instructor" who is not accountable to anyone except the other instructors. So they only recruit like minded instructors and keep others (reward based / force free trainers) out. The only weapon we really have is to beat the pants off them repeatedly in competition - which a significant number of reward based trainers are. Change is slow. ...does this mean that these trainers don't use a leash at all or a leash that is so thin that it will break when the smallest tension is applied thus preventing that any force via the leash is applied to the dog?

...'manipulating them into position'...you mention this in context with 'quite aggressive punishment', why?...what makes 'manipulating a dog to sit, drop or to stand' such a bad, cruel exercise?

...it will only settle if you try hard to catch up with the missing 2 years of socialisation and training - the dog was likely kept for 2 years in a small cage without any further human interaction, socialisation and training. Didn't you talk to the 'gorgeous local breeder' about those issues and where they might coming from?

...just look out for a big poop eating lab :) ...

@OP:...if you have other ideas and philosophies you would like to discuss with the instructors during the training I think it is not a good idea to give it a go. To put this into some context, the training in our club seems to be similar to what you described: it is based on positive reinforcements (praise, treats, tug with toys as reward), but it is not force free as leash corrections are used to prevent dogs from running away or ensure they walk in the same direction with the owner. They also teach 'NO' - IMO a very helpful command as it gives the dog a clear cue about what is the wrong choice. There is never brutal force, no scolding, kicking or beating during the training classes (not allowed or accepted) and the corrections via the leash are applied - IMO - with appropriate force depending on the size / weight of the dog. Different owners when giving the cues will sound harsher or more friendly, but the focus is always on fun! While the instructors might be happy to discuss different philosophies I can tell you my dog - and likely other dogs in her group too - would be pretty upset about ongoing discussions. They love the training and they want to earn their rewards - there are brief discussions with questions from the dog owners and explanations from the instructors, but if it takes too long respectively the break between the exercises are too long my dog tells me straight away via her 'I'm bored barking': she wants to exercise and earns her rewards! For passing and heeling exercises the goal is always loose leash walking, but if a dog owner wouldn't use the leash if required to prevent his/her dog from jumping on my dog during a passing exercise I would look for another partner for this exercise - nevertheless if my dog would get distracted by the other dog as it jumps on her she would miss the chance to earn a treat, so again she wouldn't be amused. There are all kind of breeds in this group (she is in class 3 now, approx. 15 dogs on average attend the weekly training in this class - there might be 30-40 dogs in this class in total), from German Shepard to toy poodle, and they all have fun with the employed trainings philosophy. It is amazing seeing them switching from play mode (most of them get a good run before the training) into training mode, all keen to exercise. Some owners do clicker training at home, but IMO during the sessions verbal markers and praise are the better option as it is easier for the dogs to recognize when it comes from the particular owner. I highly recommend this kind of training, but only if it doesn't collide with the own trainings philosophy. If it doesn't feel right for you - and your dog will likely sense it - it won't be a good trainings environment for your dog and the other dogs. Are online courses an option?...while they can be very informative, I don't believe they can be a substitute for the interactions between other dogs and owners in a real obedience class.

...it took 'only' 6 years for an appropriate response...that's just not good enough!...but it also raise questions about the attitude of the buyers of those puppies - with over 120 dogs, how many dogs / puppies would she have sold over a year?...and over the last 6 years?...and why have been so little complaints from the buyers?

In the first post the OP states that it was an sporting oval that is an allowed off-leash area. So it was off-leash but not a closed in dog park. Exactly JulesP. That also doesn't mean your dog must be off leash, and in no circumstances should a dog run from far away to greet an on leash dog, IMO. Even in off leash areas i recall my dogs to me to walk past other dogs- that is effective control. I'm not defending the lady with the German shorthair pointer - I would be deeply embarrassed if someone else would have to make me aware that my dog would have become an annoyance. For the sake of dogs the owner of the intimidating dog should have rectified the situation immediately by taking control of her dog. However, while I'm lucky and don't rely on dog parks to give our dog a good run off-leash, for many dog owners dog parks or other off-leash areas are the only option to give the dogs a good run off-leash - and IMO that's a big contribution to their health. The problems start if their are 3,4,5...dogs stampeding and chasing each other and are allowed to do so by their owners, and another owner with other expectations enters the ground. Maybe a better anticipation of those dodgy situations and a short discussion amongst the owners to find a suitable compromise for everyone could help to minimize those unpleasant experiences.

question for the OP: I guess I wrongly assumed that the incident happend in an area that was officially declared as an off-leash area by authorities? ...my reason for asking is: IMO it makes a big difference whether owners walking their dog(s) get hassled by other dogs in an on-leash area or whether it happens in an off-leash area / dog park. In on-leash areas no dog should be an annoyance for other dogs and owners - hence the leash. In off-leash areas where dogs are allowed to run free there is always a chance that dogs coming from all directions trying to investigate, and different dog sizes, different characters, different interpretations of dogs' body languages by the owners, different obedience levels, different fitness levels (owners and dogs) and different expectations of the owners can lead to incidents, even if every dog is monitored closely by the owners.

http://www.tams.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/764489/29061_Territory_Services_Dog_Etiquette_Rev.pdf ...quote from the link: If your dog is not well socialised with other dogs you will need to teach your dog how to behave appropriately at the park. Dogs that have not been well socialised will need to be carefully supervised to avoid aggression and other inappropriate behaviour. ...interestingly the Dog Park Etiquette doesn't require that the owners have to be well socialised, only the dogs - maybe that's the real problem :) . As others said it is a 'war' no side will win, and the losers will be the dogs. These dog parks are a mixed bag - on the one side the usage requires total control, perfect recall and perfect behaviour - but if a dog has such an obedience level, do these dogs need a dog park anyway???...wouldn't they be ok walking off-leash in other areas?...so why would there be a need of dog parks for perfect dogs?...shouldn't dog parks provide an opportunity for giving not so perfect dogs (I'm not talking about aggressive dogs here) a chance to run? I have no answers to my questions, but for me it looks like the problem is on the other end of the leash, whether a dog is attached to the leash or not.

About what? I think regulation is having a huge impact and not always beneficial. Making it harder to keep pets under conditions we don't approve of, or to do things that cause disadvantage to others doesn't = more responsible people keeping pets. All it does is make pets more inconvenient for more people, and fewer familiar with the requirements and expectations of personal responsibility. Transfers responsibility from owners to authority. With an assumption 'we' are not fit and able to take responsibility. Not every one is a responsible parent, but we don't regulate that because just about every one is familiar with the expectations of parents. Advise or help is as close as the next person when we do have problems Pets though are fair game and it seems should be invisible, so familiarity with management issues is much harder to find. Instead of demonstrations of how to get maximum value from them, methods to avoid conflict, we tend to legislate the problems away. ...what regulations?.. I wonder wether this is now a success message for the de-sexing promotion lobby or whether is it a devastating figure for them as it might require a paradigm change?...the health and behaviour benefit myths they claimed for de-sexing already debunked by several scientific studies - and now this: the last pillar of their arguments - overpopulation - isn't anymore...

...I'm confused ....

if it would be my dog I would be concerned as this could encourage a dog to run to strangers for getting treats - that's not what I want. I want that she is aware that she gets the best stuff from me - if she follows the cues and is a good girl. Even if I allow strangers to pad her (after they asked and it seems to be ok for me), she gets the treats from me. I can recognize in obedience and agility that the owners of dogs that are used to get the treats from anywhere, have more problems to get the dog's focus / attention. Another thought worth contemplating: while it might be a fear period for the dog, it shouldn't be a fear period for the owner!...how you interpret your leadership role is what shapes the dog...

...when doing a search for glucosamine / chondroitin supplements 50% of the studies indicate that there are benefits and 50% find no benefits at all. And - IMO - this is not really a surprise: if a dog never got enough glucosamine and / or chondroitin due to a one-sided diet he will obviously suffer one day from lack of those supplements - in this case supplements might be helpful. However, there are also cases where join pain, arthritis etc. has other causes, and for these poor dogs the supplements will likely not help. With no positive results dog owners might try to overdose (why shouldn't it work for my dog if it works for all the others?), and with overdosing there is the risk of gastrointestinal issues, blood thinning, allergies and interaction with pain killers to name a few of the possible negative side effects. Overdosing can also occur if the dog has a balanced quality diet that already includes sufficient glucosamine and chondroitin and those supplements are added in addition to the daily food. E.g., glucosamine etc. is present in bone marrow and cartilage (in cartilage, who would have thought that :) ?)...and considering that bones and cartilage is part of the natural diet of our dogs ancestors and still living relatives, a chicken frame and a bone from time to time might be all what's required to keep the dog and his joints healthy.

...isn't there a qualified instructor with whom you can discuss the behaviour?...wrt dog parks respectively 'forced' socialisation: agree with others; you can't force a dog to socialise if he is anxious as this will back fire. Encouraging yes, but exceeding the threshold where it is only stress for the dog will achieve the opposite. Keep the distance to people, dogs and things & items that is comfortable for him and wait till he wants to investigate more and wants to get closer. Be aware that there is not only one fear period - every dog responses a little bit different and even older dogs (over a year) might go through another fear period. A few dogs also develop anxiety due to early desexing - then it is not only a period, but a lifetime challenge.

...we have this one in grey / silver ...easy to fit (comes with a template, drill 4 holes at each corner and cut it out with a jig saw - 20 minute job); with the double way flaps they seal very good and don't let any insects or mice in - just a little bit noisy in the night time.

@OP: if you and your partner love your dog, always remember: food - especially non dog food - is not love!...a lean, well nourished older dog will have much less issues with joints, digestions etc. etc....conversely every 'kg' more weight than the dog should have will increase pain in case of arthritis or other joint / spine issues. With more pain he will be less motivated to walk and to run, which will further lead to a deteriorating health....if you want the best retirement years for him: treat him and feed him like a dog :) .

^^ this There are consequences if my dogs behave badly. e.g. if they wouldn't stop jumping up at visitors they would either go outside or in a crate. But is this punishment? If it reduces the frequency/duration/intensity of the behaviour, then yes! :) If it isn't affecting future behaviour, then it's not a meaningful consequence to the dog, is it? ...however, this is not how 'punishment' is defined by the originator of the survey...according to the survey 'punishment' equals any treatment that involves force as a response to unwanted behaviour. Eta: IMO 'punishment' would have required a much more detailed explanation in the survey - different definitions of 'punishment' from participants of the survey will obviously have a big impact on the findings. Eta: in the survey the originator states:..."For the purposes of this study, 'punishment' refers to administering treatment that the dog is likely to find unpleasant, such as verbal or physical reprimands"...so while I my explanation above using the word 'force' isn't totally correct, the originator's definition of 'punishment' definitely doesn't comply with the definition of 'punishment' in behaviour science where the potential outcome defines whether it is 'punishment' or not. The originator's definition leaves it also unclear whether 'negative punishment' (removal of appetitive stimuli) should be interpreted as 'punishment' in the context of the survey or not.

I find it interesting that the US, Canada and Australia seem to have the same problems regarding dogs, and that they adopt the same approach (desexing) as the silver bullet. Europe doesn't promote desexing the same way (in Norway it is even prohibited) and consequently the percentage of entire dogs is significant higher - still, it seems they have less problems with pounds and overpopulation. I lived in Germany and know other European countries a little bit, and one difference to Australia (and I assume Australia is similar to US and Canada) is that it is nearly impossible to breed dogs 'underground'. IMO there are 2 reasons: lack of remoteness: it is very hard to find a place where you could do it without alarming any neighbours who would dob you in; legislation and law enforcement ...obviously we can't address the 'remoteness aspect' in Australia...

...just enter 'Search Searchfield' in the field in the right upper corner :D

...looks like the snake was already dead, found it on the same spot where I left it yesterday...looked also a little bit more 'dried out' today...

one question: where is the statistics saying that approx. 100,000 Australians are attacked by dogs every year?....I found some figures for NSW from 2011/2012 stating approx. 7,400 dog attacks with less than 3,400 human victims - while NSW might not be representative for all Australia, and while there might be an increase in dog attacks over the last years it is very hard to believe without further evidence that the quote '100,000' is the correct figure.

...may God or another authority give me one AU$ for each case that proves the opposite... @mumtoshelly: ...the best and also cheapest way to keep a dog healthy is IMO indeed to keep the dog lean; as indicated, too much weight could really cause all the symptoms (arthritis, diabetes) you see with your dog, so if you love your dog - and food is not love! - feeding less not only saves money, but also boosts the health of your dog. A healthy adult dog won't have any problems to go a day without food (just ensure access to water) and fasting a dog for 1 day a week could also add to weight loss - as your dog has some medical conditions it is recommended to discuss it with the vet. wrt pooh eating: can be addressed by positive reinforcement training, but I understand it will be very hard - and it will require persistence and discipline - to train a 10 year old dog that is used eating pooh all the time - and, yes, any calorie will add to his weight!...and there are associated health risks with pooh eating. Therefore the aversive approach putting something into the pooh that ruins it for your dog could be more suitable for you. You have to pick something that won't have any dramatic health affects for you dog, so I would discuss it with your vet.

...something (juvenile eastern brown snake) I don't expect after a cold night with temperatures around 10 deg C - not absolutely sure whether it was dead or not (no ants, no obvious signs of injuries, cuts, deformations, broken skin....). Was a little bit small so for end of May (I saw bigger ones in mid March) ...I found it at the end of a concrete staircase on our morning walk, strangely the dog didn't even notice it. Might have been hibernating (but looked more 'dead' for me....anyway, I thought it was a good opportunity to do some snake training with the dog (had her on the leash while doing it).