phatdex

The great time and commitment cant be put in by other owners of other breeds? "They dont do it for fun"????? Why do it then? Do they self combust if they dont train in schutzhund once a week? I didnt say u make the rules, just that they make no sense. If all breeds are allowed to do it in America, and they do and can get SCHIII or whatever, then what possible justification can there be for not letting them do it everywhere besides breedism is there? Buggered if I know if my dog could do tracking, probably not, but if my dog could, and I was dedicated to putting the time and effort in (which I am also prob not) then why not? The only valid argument put forward so far has been, "Those are the rules". Thats like saying black ppl cant compete in swimming. They arent generally good at it, but if u want to do it.......................... Well u cant, coz those are the rules.

So whats the reason they cant compete in it in Australia again? Just because some people say so? If ANY dog can complete the tasks required of them, they should be allowed to compete. Simple as that. THEN, maybe ppl would turn up to these clubs. Even if they cant compete. Let them train and have fun with the rest of the group.

Um, I mentioned that he would naturally be good at the bite stuff, I said I would need to work hard with him for the rest of it.

I took it as ur first point saying that a bull breed would be difficult to make let go of the sleeve.... Sorry

I dont own a sleeve, but I have a bite bar, my dog hits it hard from whatever distance he has been sitting and staying. Holds it, gets swung around my head multiple times, lets go when I tell him AND will stop when running up to bite it. All this from a pit bull type dog. My boy would never let go of another dog, but with something he sees as a toy, such as a bite bar or a sleeve, he will. And as America has proven many times, Bull breed dogs CAN do schutzhund.

Correct me if I am wrong, but bull breeds have very good prey drive but they are known to not be good protection dogs. But that pic I posted I believe is a french ring courage trial which involves the guy waving a baton? And the dog is hitting him hard. I think bull breeds people protest so much because their breed WOULD be good at schutzhund. Other breed people dont say anything coz they know their dog would not. I dunno how good my dog would be at al;l the obedience, it wold take a LOT of training on my part. But I know, with not much training he would hit that sleeve.

Bandog Dredd, the most titled dog in the world (also a APBT) was rumoured to be animal AND people aggressive (why he was never bred from) and managed to get his SCH title. Bandog Dread SchH III, IPO III, TD, CD, U-CDX, WDS, STD-d, STD-s, WH, B, Ch. winner of two AKC and two UKC High In Trials, High in Trial for SchH III, High Score Protection SchH I/III, 1st pit bull to earn the IPO III title, first pit bull to earn ASCA herding dog titles. Used in five movies and numerous advertisements. Why would a dog with animal aggressive instincts not be mentally strong? And saying all APBT's are animal aggressive is a generalisation. They use APBT's for pigging, some must be OK with other dogs otherwise they would attack the dogs and not the pigs. Dara Hunt Flores captured this fast action shot of Boldog Dirk being caught by a decoy-in-training at a DVG decoy certification. It was pouring rain and you can see how muddy and wet the ground is, and Kevin Coombs caught a very fast dog very well and very safely. He was awarded with a Level 1 decoy certification by DVG OFS

Get K9 Force to do some private training with you for sleeve work and then do the rest at a normal obedience club? Do sleeve work at home once learnt?

Just a quick reply, but if only working dogs are allowed, why isnt the APBT? It is a working dog in every sense of the word. I know with BSL in Australia now it is impossible for them to do anything having to be muzzled etc, but I'm talking principle, not legality issues now. American Bulldogs and APBT's were cattle herders/multi-purpose farm dogs long before they were involved in dog fighting. APBT's are not mentally stable enough to do this? Bollocks! Thast the minimum age they have to be? Maybe the dog was 3 years old when it first started Schutzhund?

I use my prong on my Amstaff and it is very visible on him and not one person has ever mentioned his collar to me. With all the GSD hair, I wouldnt be worried at all about it.

I didnt really mean dogs that bark at people coz of fear, I meant moreso dogs that simply bark all the time. Would the prey drive, and going inside if they bark teach them that barking isnt wanted and thus they would stop doing it so much in their everyday life?

I have to go to sleep now, so wont try the training till tomorrow, but will keep u posted zero. K9: Could this use of prey drive training help to stop all barkers, whether the prey training was the cause of the barking or not?

Thanks K9, ur explantion as to why he is barking seems spot on! Will do what u have said!

If I go outside etc and just look at him he will look at me and bark and do that whooowhoowhoo were the dog looks like he is trying to whistle, which means for me to pat him. I do triangle of temptation with him, NILIF etc etc and some prey drive work and it has basically started since I have been doing them. When doing prey drive training he has started barking alot also.

Its not at people that just walk past, it is at people that are stopped and talking to us. He turns many people off and some think he is being agressive by his bark when to dog people he obviously isnt. He takes punishment quite badly and hates water and sulks. I dunno if squirting him when on a walk would help or make him terrified of me.

My Amstaff has taken to when people approach us on our walk, he starts barking very loudly at them. To me it is just excited silly barking but very low. If they put their hand out to pat him, he stops and licks their hands etc. If they are frightened (which most are) he keeps barking louder and stronger. Anyway to stop him doing this? I tell him off, slap his nose, hold his mouth shut etc, but he just keeps barking. The thing is he barks if u dont pat him, is quiet if u do. So I dunno how to stop it. He does it to me also, but nowhere near as much.

I read all th posts, before deleted also, and didnt really notice any insults.

um, firstly lock jaw? wtf? Secondly, I think slim1 just wanted something fun to do with her dog, not to do actual trials etc so i dont see what the fuss is about. Just like it would be fun to do lure coursing, weight pulling, whatever! Secondly, it would be much easier to stop, and less damaging to the sheep to have a dog that holds on, rather than continually biting. Because an owner can run over and get the dog off with minimal damage. A dog that keeps biting and letting go and re biting will do far more damage in a limited amount of time. (Ie in the time it takes for the owner to run over). Whereas the pit bull has simply made puncture marks, one twist of the collar and he is off. Left to their own devices, the pit bull would be more dangerous, but with people there, they are the easiest dog to get off.

No, I meant the fear period puppies have in their development, a window of a few weeks where if anything negative happens to them it is inprinted in them forever. Erny etc will be able to tell u this better, but if she is continually attacked during this period it may lead to fear aggression later in life.

she looked very tiny and people differ on when the puppy fear period is. Maybe u should keep them seperate or she may become a fear biter. maybe wait till she is bigger and they can sort things out without maybe one snap killing her.

Well the one day VIC workshop with around 20 ppl was $75 each. So that can give you a simple idea on prices BUT steve also did another 2 day course while he was down so might have to factor that in as well.

At the VIC workshop Steve told us this story yet I still had to read the whole story over again on his site, and it was still as exciting as when he first told us it. (If that makes sense!)

My Amstaff still does it and he is almost 3 years old. No help I'm afraid, just wanted to state it. Doesnt hurt one bit once they get adult teeth.

K9: I have a great program I designed called the TRIANGLE of TEMPTATION. Unlike other feeding programs, it doesnt require you to handfeed the dog which adds fear at feed time on some dogs... I usually only provide this program to clients but as its a good cause, (& I wanna raise my pack structure above Suzanne ) Here are the notes I send out.... Keep in mind when you release the dog, it will be heading away from conflict, can eat in peace & that is the reward. When the dog is looking at you, you know the dog trusts you, this will break down the lack of eye contact quick smart... Triangle of Temptation. I use this program with every dog I train. It’s remarkably effective for gaining control with no force. I have used it with dogs for many years that have been trained to engage a man in combat & would not hesitate to attack me if it were not for this program. It works equally well on weak nerved or problem dogs... The best part about this program is that it gives confidence & obedience control with no conflict & it takes no time as you need to feed the dog anyway... The bases of this program is to have the dog look to you for guidance & permission to partake in anything you say that the dog can, including food, toys, game etc & the whole thing is a set up in which the dog gains success. To begin the program we must follow basic training principles, they are the learning phase, the correction phase & the distraction phase. Whilst few corrections if any are given by the handler to the dog, the corrections are given by negative punishment methods of withholding something the dog thought was his/hers. The key to starting is to have a food driven dog, if you don’t have a dog with a high food drive, miss the meal before you start or at least reduce it by ¾. Fasting is healthy for dogs. Now you have a dog that wants the food. Prepare the meal inside & this should be done after all higher members have eaten. Next back tie your dog with a flat buckle collar (non correctional collar) & rope to something solid in your yard. Make sure all other dogs are out of site, we are looking for as low a distraction as possible. Allow your dog to relax on the back tie, a few minutes is usually enough. Now bring out your dogs food & place it several metres in front of the dog, enough distance so the dog can see it but not so close as he can almost stretch to get it, most times about 5 – 8 metres is great. Now you will find our dog looking at the food, possibly trying to get to it, this is what you want. If the dog is going to hysterics, move the food further away. What it shows is that the dog thinks that he is entitled to the food, but that’s not the case. Approach your dog & stand at his right hand side. Pick up the leash & stand quietly whilst the dog gets all excited for the food. One of two things will happen, either the dog will go on & on & just stare at the food or he will sit down & look at you. If he doesn’t sit down, use the leash to guide the dog into a sit, call the dog by name. You want to see the dog look at you, when he/she does be quick to release the dog with an OK command & let the dog loose to eat the food, you should sound very happy. The next evening you will repeat the same. This exercise is very effective, as you need to feed your dogs anyway, so they may as well learn at the same time. You are looking to repeat this until when you place the food down, the dog looks at you & not the food. I can have most dogs do this in 2 – 4 days. Looking at you means the dog sees you as the person in charge; he has given up staring at the food as he knows that it’s you who say when he can have it, & he can only have it when you say so. The triangle is formed by drawing a line between you, the dog & the treasure. When you have a good sit stay, as that is what is being built here, you can remove the back tie & keep it in your hands, if the dog should break the stay, you begin again. Your looking to increase the time the dog has to stay sitting by 10 seconds per day until you get over three minutes. When three minutes has been gained & you will be certain you can go farther, start to increase the distance between you & the dog, whilst holding the tie out rope. You should increase this distance by increments of 1 metre. Up until you did this, the dog was viewing the food (treasure) as unobtainable, & you as unbeatable. Now by increasing the distance the dog will start to feel the food is obtainable & you just might be beat able. The long rope will teach the dog very quickly that you are not. The rule you need to remember is: Time before distance before distraction. This is essential for a marked improvement every day. When you find yourself able to wander inside while the food bowl sits there UN touched by the dog, you’re ready to add distraction. Allow a second dog now to eat from its own bowl perhaps, remain out of site for a period of time, and change the environment to outside the front gate perhaps. These are just some ways to add distraction. Build reliability into your dog by working it. When you’re at this level you will never have a dominance problem with your dog, you can’t have, he looks at you to make the big decisions, like when he can have his treasure. Feel free to substitute the food for another treasure, such as a treat, ball, toy or an open back door or front gate. The key is that this gives you control of all the treasures in life, each repetition is positively rewarded at the end by allowing the dog the treasure, when you say he can have it. Advanced moves can be easily trained such as recalling the dog past the food, from the food etc etc. ******************************************************* This article is copyright protected (2004) © and can not be used or distributed without K9 force consent. You are, however, allowed to distrubute this link to direct people to this site.

Maybe the stuff K9 says to show dog u r leader, like the triangle of temptation or whatever its called. Do a search for it on this forum.