Erny

Hi Rat - thanks for the sympathy and yes, he's been a great deal of work and very time consuming for me. I've been to Vets. That's a bit of a story in itself and I don't really feel inclined to relate it on a public forum. Another Vet after prescribing antibiotics (which I gave him against my better judgement and which made his stomach and stools bad - coincidentally perhaps but that was around the time he started going off food) wanted to refer to a specialist Vet - that was ages ago and the initial symptom for which I went was mucous in his stool (this was the first sign of things not being as well as they could be). I checked with the specialist Vet and they suggested the first thing they'd do was put him under GA and endoscope him. I made the decision then (supported by another Vet) that GA wasn't going to help his system and also that it was likely to be an academic exercise. They would tell me his stomach/bowel was upset. I already knew that. All the other symptoms he has been showing are likely to lead to recommended treatments such as antibiotics and cortisone. That, IMO, isn't really what he needs either. I'm going this (hard) the naturopathic way. I'm watching. And I'm giving his system every chance I can give it to steady itself. If you saw me walking out as I did this morning with him, you would think "what a lovely looking dog". His coat is good as is his demeanour. I don't want to talk about his hives in case I jinx things. Interdigital cysts seem to be improving although that's a gradual thing. I am hoping (against hope, perhaps) that maturation will have him stabilise. I confer with his naturopath regularly and also went the 'hair sample' route, at the beginning. I watch him like a hawk. It's tiring at times, and yes it is disheartening when things start looking good and then go backwards, but we just keep working on things to improve his system and managing symptoms along the way. Rat - it's not that bad. Overall he's a happy dog and we spend a good amount of time larking and laughing. He is interested in the world and we enjoy our training. He'll run like the wind when we go out somewhere he can be off-lead. He's very alert and cheeky. I have hope and that is a huge plus. I remember my avatar girl, when her condition was realised and we knew there was nothing I could do and that the end of her time was near and inevitable. THAT is bad and much worse. Mandela has symptoms and yes I feel sorry for him for all the poking and probing I have to do, but it's not that bad. It could be far far worse. And if that's what it becomes, then I will look at the conventional Veterinary medications/treatments if that's what I end up having to do. At the moment though, the naturopathic treatments seem to be getting us through (although sometimes frustratingly slowly) one symptom and another. She'll be right .

My Dad has a pacemaker and my boy loves him (my Dad is a guaranteed ball thrower, in my dog's eyes), but doesn't act in any way strangely around him.

You could be right, Lab_Rat. Perhaps just the fact that I steeled myself to getting it done and done as swiftly as I could lent me a more determined ..... ummmm, determination, perhaps. He bucked around tonight a fair bit, although didn't react as violently to the drops themselves once I got them in. Perhaps I relaxed on it and took for granted his improved response a little too much. So yes, there could be something in what you say. Lordy, he's strong and so much more noticeably so when I only have one arm with which to hold him. I'm quite amazed with how dexterous I've become in using my legs and feet to help hold him in place . I agree. You ever read Sally Swift's "Centred Riding"? That made a big difference in my riding career. And the fact that after reading the book I happens-chanced to meet up with a riding instructor who was taught by Sally Swift (this person was even mentioned in the book). Wow, what a difference both the book and that instruction made to me, and my horse. Thanks, Rat. I appreciate that and I agree. I feel more for my boy. He's only 22 months and no dog that young should be having to have all the medical type attentions he's had in this space of time. That's what's not fair. He's got to be one of the most poked and probed young dogs around. Presuming we get through this, lack of man-handling won't be an issue and won't have done him harm to have learnt the compliance he already has.

He's on a raw diet, although it's a diet that I'm not satisfied as being 'balanced' atm. The problem being that he goes "off" various meats. He's "off" raw meat just now, and for 2 weeks I've had to cook his meat. Predominantly chicken. Not what I wanted to do, but he's too lean to be able to take the 'bad luck, that's all you get' tactic. In addition to the meat he is on Digestivite (nutrients), Intestomine, Omega Blend Oil, Enzyme tabs (can't remember the name without looking it up), Vitamin C. He's not long ago finished a stint of tissue salts and some gastro drops for his stomach. There was also another holistic substance which tasted (and smelt) foul - I used to syringe that down his throat - it made a big difference to his coat and stool condition (prescribed by naturopath). I offer chicken wings during the day as well and for the most part he's been eating them, although he left the two I gave him yesterday so I didn't bother offering more today. I cooked up some beef meat mince and up until recently he was enjoying that in between the chicken (wouldn't eat it raw though) but in the last two days he has gone off that. Sardines he gets once or twice a week. Occasionally a raw egg, although he refused the one I offered him a few days or so ago. Won't touch roo mince (cooked some up the other day, to see if that would make a difference - he ate only a small mouth full). Up until last October he would happily eat it, but then he went off it and won't touch it since. Once in a blue moon he'll have a good gnaw on a roo tail, but it seems he needs it to sit in the sun for a day or two - perhaps to dry out the meat a little and reduce the richness of it . But that has been too difficult to allow, as it only attracts the flies and maggots and, worse, the european wasps. Won't touch lamb necks - that was the first food he went 'off' when his digestive woes began about 13 months ago. Has turkey mince every now and again - sometimes he'll eat it, sometimes he'll walk away from it. His food treats are roo jerky and he's enjoyed them, up until 2 weeks ago, when he went off them too. Although now he's started back to them - not over the top about them like he once was. Was good with BARF Rabbit for a stint - was the only thing he would eat, for a while. But now won't touch that either, unless it is a blue moon. As a pup he was introduced to many different raw foods (including vegies and fruit) and he loved them all. He won't touch anything vegetable now and only very occasionally and semi-reluctantly will have a small piece of a banana that I might be eating. Once in a blue moon he'll take a piece of apple. Won't touch carrots, yet as a pup they were one of his favourite treats (other favourite was a few raw peas at a time).

Look around you. It's already happening. I read Temple Grandin's book. I didn't agree with everything she had to say in relation to dogs, but it was a good book and leant itself to great insight as to how the complexity of our normally functioning brain system clouds the way in which we look at and communicate with dogs (and animals in general).

I beg to differ on that assumption. I train my dog differently to how I teach (I train in drive). This is not suitable for every dog nor for every dog-owner/family. I have also had the privilege of knowledge that has permitted me to train as I mean to finish, from when my boy was a pup. Many people who come to class have inadvertantly trained their dogs in unwanted behaviours making the path of training not quite as clear nor easy. I might be working on a skill that is important to me and potentially but temporarily sacrificing something else for its sake. How would you know? Also, unless you've asked the trainer, how do you know how long the trainer has had his/her dog and/or what the dog's background is? My previous (avatar) girl (bless her cotton socks) came to me as a 7yo. Fear aggressive to other dogs. Extremely fearful of people. Basic obedience skill level only. Her rehabilitation was the more important to me (and I believe, to her). She progressed a long, long way, but she was always, underneath it all, a nervous dog. Would you judge that of me? Her obedience skills improved no end, but I never did achieve a tight heel with her. For all the other things being so more important and necessary, I never really bothered with trying for a tighter heel than what she gave. Would I be judged for that too? Or would you be able to see how well she was able to cope with meeting other dogs (off or on lead) and commend me for that? But then, how could you know from whence she came? Without a bench mark to compare with you might think her ability around other dogs (which did not involve play and bore a preference, if she could have it, of being left alone by other dogs) to be somewhat less than ordinary. Would I be judged for that too, just by the glance you espy on the day/date you happened to roll up to look? Why not ask the training school instructor/manager about the methods they use throughout the levels and what the expectations can/should be? Why not speak with one of the school's members who have achieved higher learning and ask them how they found it? I'm not suggesting that you can't tell much by observing - of course you can and I think the school is being very generous in permitting you to watch so closely to the class that you are able to determine exactly what they are saying/teaching and why, and that they'd permit you to continue to visit, watch and learn without becoming a member. But I'm reading a lot of what are potential assumptions upon which judgements are being made here. Not being defensive nor aggressive, if that's how it might seem. Just playing the devil's advocate. If you came to just one or even just two of the lessons I conduct you are likely to find fault with those too. The classes I give are progressive, so without seeing every one of them or at least without some essence of explanation, you wouldn't be able to observe one class and determine where it will go from there. Nor might you even if you saw two classes. Though I dare say that what is taught in those classes is likely to make sense to you provided you understand enough of training to be able to see forward of what we are doing.

Thanks Jed but I can do all of this with him. But he won't allow it when it comes to ear drops. I don't have enough arms/hands to restrain him in this position. And for the fact that it obviously did hurt him when I first began the drops, I can't help feeling it is a betrayal of the very trust he puts in me to be able to have him in such a vulnerable position. I have no problems doing his nails. He lays with me on his mat for this, whilst I dremel them. I am managing the ear drops better now - as is he. He still hates it and is not exactly what I would call in 'relaxed compliance' mode, but it is improving. This I did, and I am able to wipe his ears out in this manner, even though he dislikes that too. But not the drops.

Oh .... it's horrible when you can't do anything, isn't it? What is the cause of it? I presume the Vet has taken xrays? You might want to talk to Mr. R and NR. I know she has experienced this sort of issue. She might not be able to do or say anything to help, but she will certainly be able to empathise.

Address: 745 North Rd Cranbourne South VIC 3977 Phone: (03) 5978 5174 I know he has quite a following, but I did find him somewhat rough in his manipulation of my previous dog. Unnecessarily rough, IMO. I went to Kevin Kelly who works from the Devon Meadows Dog Swimming Pool on Wednesday afternoons. But he's not a Vet/Chiro. However his chiropractic care is the most gentle I have witnessed as well as being even more effective than what I'd been able to find elsewhere. This is just my experience though.

Hhhhhmmm .... wonder if they realise that training without any negatives is impossible. Wonder if they have any notion of how stressful to the dog that negative punishment can be.

Whenever any of this breed is found as a stray, I can't help but wonder about Midol's dog and whether there's any possibility it is his. I can't even remember the markings of his lost dog.

Thanks SnF. And you in yours .

Thanks Sas for understanding this is conversation/bantering. I think I'm in the same boat as you - I don't really know and I do have my own thoughts. And yes, I think because you imagine "boost" as something more or different than what I imagine "boost" to be, we are on different pages. I think what you've said/asked above (highlighted by me) is close to what I'm trying to (obviously very poorly) get across/ask. I am saying that an over-active immune system is not functioning as it should. By nurturing the immune system so that it can be as healthy as it could be, to me isn't going to mean it will function even more than it already is, but rather that it might have a chance of functioning as it should.

Is the school against saying "no" because it views it as a negative to the dog and that it (the school) is against the application of any negatives in training? I don't understand the training benefit of a trainer reinforcing a recall when the dog clearly has not responded to the owner's command. I wonder - perhaps the dog had a history of fear of strangers and it was being rewarded for a confident approach to the trainer. Sure - not a great training technique for teaching recall for the dog, but perhaps an opportunity to encourage confidence and discourage fear, which might be seen by the trainer as a priority. I'm not saying this is the reason why the trainer might have done what he/she did, nor am I saying this is what I would or wouldn't do (circumstance and situation would need to dictate) but I am saying that without knowing, it would be unfair to judge a trainer or training school on this one observation. I do understand the use of "whoops" and how it psychologically avoids a negative tone of voice by the owner. The word itself also encourages a different look on the handler's face. Dogs are very sensitive to facial expressions. To me this would be the same as a NRM. I use NRM's. Not exclusively to all else though. "Whoops" is a word we use in agility training, for exactly the reason mentioned. NRM's are good, but the handlers need to have an understanding of what they are doing to know they are using it appropriately. "No" can transfer information to a dog if the word has been paired with an action that gives meaning to it. Even "no" can be a NRM. Or it can represent "you're in trouble". And/or it can represent a correction. Depending on when and how it is paired. Many people use the word "no". But they each use it differently and not even use it the same way consistently. Consequently, I'm not a big fan of having people in my classes use the word "no". Only for the fact they each have their own different interpretations of it and are therefore likely to use it (and have probably used it in the past) in ways I do not intend for them to use it towards their respective dogs in training. I encourage the use of food treat rewards in class. Along with reward toys (tug). This doesn't make for "spoilt" dogs but used appropriately can make learning easier for the dogs. What schedule of reinforcement I use and whether there are corrections (be they verbal, physical or by way of negative punishment) depends on the level of training the class is at. Not only do I like to the dogs to learn what to do before corrections for what not to do are too quickly introduced, I like the handlers to at least build up some sense of delivery-timing via reward before I expect them to have a sense of understanding of delivery-timing via correction. I think some additional explanation is needed to be able to properly comment and unless the instructor/s whom were being observed at the time are asked, judgement can prove to be inaccurate and/or unfair. This is why, if people wish to observe the classes I run before deciding to join, I have a policy of arranging to meet them at a prescribed time for a prescribed period, and a trainer allocated to be with them so that explanation of what the class is doing may be proffered. At least then people are able to form an educated opinion on whether they like or don't like the training methods I employ.

It doesn't tell us anything specific, but it doesn't rule out some things. If we haven't "pumped" in all the usual chemicals it doesn't rule out the genetic propensity. And that, in turn, doesn't rule out the possibility of all those chemicals which might have potentially been pumped into our dogs' ancestors causing an evolution to immune system dysfunction; poor organ (eg digestive) function; etc. If we have "pumped" in all the 'good' stuff (eg. balanced raw diet) it still doesn't rule out the genetic propensity. And that, in turn, doesn't rule out the possibility that our dogs could have been worse off if we had pumped in all the usual chemicals. And it also doesn't rule out that our dogs' immune system is either unaffected or better off for all the good stuff we pump in. I agree that much is theory and/or anecdotal. However logic has to play a part in what we do. But somewhere here I think the point I was questioning (and it's not as though I expect a definitive answer - it's only because you raised a caution against "boosting" the immune system and I wanted to take the opportunity to discuss that - whether with you or with anyone else who would care to offer opinion/thoughts). That is, is it really possible to "boost" the immune system beyond what it would normally be capable of? As I mentioned earlier, my interpretation of "boost" is not to "super-charge" it so that it functions beyond how it should - to do that would render it a dysfunctioning immune system anyway (in my thoughts). To me, "boost" means the equivalent of "nourish" or "nurture", so that it might be afforded the opportunity of functioning as it should.

I think that's a bit of an over-reaction as well, LisaB85. Why does your pup need a full off-leash area to have a run? I go to off-lead areas now that my boy is older and does enjoy and benefit from a stretch of his legs and the freedom to sniff, course and investigate, but I do choose my times and places. The point being at the moment is that you're taking your pup into a known uncontrolled environment, inside the most critically sensitive time of his life - not only mental-developmentally speaking, but also before he has completed vaccination. I did a lot of work and had a lot of fun (as did my boy) playing/training in the home-yard. We also spent a huge amount of time socialising/habituating to the outside world in areas that were not as highly populated by unknown dogs as public parks are. We also attended puppy school and met up with friends and their dogs. People here are just cautioning you as to the reality of the problems that public parks may present to you and your pup, and pointing out that attending them isn't really a complete necessity, especially at your pup's young age.

SnF : Yes, I tend to agree with you. There can be that resignation to the fact it is going to happen and that struggling isn't going to accomplish anything. KG : I agree with MM - I think anything I had put down his ear canal would have stung to a degree. I guess like any open wound, there is usually a sting when a solution is doing its job. There is no vinegar base listed in the ingredients to the stuff I have. You would know of it - "Ear Clear". MasonsMum - I'm a fan of Colloidal Silver and use it for many different applications. I have used it before to wipe his ears out with. In this instance I don't think it would have been enough on its own to combat the problem, but when the drops are done I will go back to using it on a cotton ball to wipe his ears. I prefer not to pour things down their ear canals on a regular and routine basis, but I will play that idea by ear (pardon the pun). I have worked very hard in relation to all his problematic symptoms to avoid cortisone treatments. So far, so good. *touch wood*. Even antibiotics are not always a good thing for certain complaints so I tend to avoid the readiness with which these are commonly prescribed, as well, if I can. I'm not completely against these things - but if other more holistic things work then that's what I'd prefer to give a try if it is possible, feasible and if I think is overall in the best interests for the health of my boy. Thanks everyone for your help and for sympathising for the struggle that sometimes these things can be. Mandela is so good with all the other bibs and bobs I need to impose upon him, and so understanding of them. Overall, he really is a good patient and very tolerant of all the poking, probing and wiping. We only have two more ear drop administrations to go and then he gets a week's reprieve. That'll be good .

Hey Kirst I do that, but thank you for adding that tip here. As it turns out, today's application of drops (morning and night) have been soooooo much better/easier and far less traumatic for either of us. I won't pretend that he enjoys it and there is still a bit of struggle, but now I think it is more just that he doesn't like the sensation of the drops rather than it might have hurt him for his ear canals being sore. He's not trembling anymore. Nor is he yelping when the drops go in. And he stayed in his sit position even after I'd let go of my hold, allowing me to gently massage the drops in (via the outside of his ears). I don't know if it is my imagination or not but he does seem to be more and more chipper in these last couple of days. Thanks for loving Mandela - I'm sure he would have known that. He means well, even though he has so many 'spethal needs'. He certainly is much work, as you would be aware. He's looking quite well at the moment but I'm still working on a couple of other things before I'm satisfied that things are as on the right track as they could be.

If an immune system isn't functioning properly, isn't it possible to 'nourish' the immune system to give it a chance to begin to function properly? I have chronic fatigue. It's not as bad as it used to be, and I haven't had it as bad as some people do. But it was and can be bad enough. My naturopath prescribed some tablets that would (using her explanation) "nourish" my adrenals - ie not boost them into overdrive, just 'nourish' so that they might begin to function properly and not have the affect on me that they were having. Just to explain - my chronic fatigue was brought on by excessive stress. I ran for months on end on adrenaline - that's what kept me going and working for 114 hours a week. The stress kicked off the adrenaline which had me working to excess and not taking the time out to eat (or sleep) as a result. Then it got to the point that without the adrenaline, I had no energy. The medication prescribed did seem to help me a lot, even though it took some time for things to come better. This is I guess what I have meant when I refer to "boosting the immune system". I mean "supporting it". Nourishing it so that it will have every chance of functioning normally. What would "boost" the immune system into abnormal over-drive anyway, other than an immune system that is already in that state? I can't understand how anything that would be naturally good for a dog would cause its immune system to go berserk (over work). My (perhaps poor) understanding of vitamins etc is that the body will excrete what it does not need. So it wouldn't be as if the adrenal gland would go "oh boy!! Here comes some vitamins!! I'm going to suck them up so I can act on super-charge", would it? So - vitamin/mineral additives wouldn't necessarily prevent secondary skin infections occurring as a result of the initial allergy reaction, but an immune system that was as nourished as it could be to function as well as it might would have to at least assist, wouldn't it? Of course if the dog is a chronic allergy dog, to me it indicates a possible immune system issue in the first place. Consequently (in my layperson's way of thinking) it is less likely to be able to combat secondary skin infection without some sort of topical assistance. That's where, for my dog, Calendula Tea applications have been a huge help. Genuine query. Not trying to be a smarty pants, just in case it sounds like I might be.

You should be able to do exactly what you suggest, in an ideal world. But fact is, it's not an ideal world. And to have a young pup where every experience it has in that critical period will be permanent and where vaccinations are incomplete, it's not the best choice of places to take it - the risk is so much higher than an adult dog, not to suggest that there's no risk at all for an adult dog. There are lots of things we should be able to do in this world. We should be able to walk alone through a darkened abandoned area without sense of danger. But in today's world, we can do that less and less. It would be a silly choice to make especially when there are other choices we can make which will achieve what we need to achieve but in a safer environment. Is the OP wrong to be at the park? Aside from the potentially higher risk of her pup contracting disease, no. Not "wrong". But was it the wisest choice she could have made? No.

Hi LisaB85. Yes, it is OT to your opening post. And I agree with you that it is important (regardless of breed) to socialise our pups to all manner of our worldly things inside of the critical period - and there's soooooo much we can/need to socialise them to, it is best to make as much good use of that small window frame as possible. When my boy was a pup we were very busy going out averywhere. But we didn't do dog parks. Not until later (and even then very cautiously). We did puppy school and coffee shops and all of that kind of thing, where he could observe and experience different sights and sounds. But not dog parks. Irresponsible people go there (as you now know) and you don't know where they've come from nor where they've been. Dog parks are a higher risk - as there are other alternatives, it isn't necessary nor even recommended. You sound very strong in your convictions against the bully breeds in general, now LisaB85. Yet do you know the dogs' history? Isn't this a dog walker? Does she own the dogs? What is the upbringing of each dog? You are selecting by breed only and conveniently making assumptions to suit your sentiment (sentiments I can sympathise for your experience, but not agree with). This is how the falsehood of BSL got through in the first place. And yet it hasn't altered bite/attack stats.

I can't make you change your feelings, but while you are "sitting on the fence", remember that BSL has the capacity and strong likelihood of affecting your breed of choice too. Dobes have been in the spot-light. So have my breed of choice. So have a multitude of other breed choices. I am inclined to agree with the chants of others in recommending you report the owner of the 'offending' dog. Going from what you say she isn't a responsible dog owner. It is these people who do make it so that the dogs (all breeds) cop the wrap (your swing of sentiment is case in point) and unfortunately in her case, her dog is likely to cop it. But allowing these people to continue their irresponsible behaviour only bodes bad for everyone else and their dogs, no matter how responsible they are.

Thanks DG. I've got this morning's drops to give yet, so I'm hoping that last night wasn't a fluke. He's been progressively even more chirpy over the last few days than he has been, so I'm only presuming he's feeling better for his ears. But with Mandela it has either been one thing or another and I'm treating him accordingly, so it is difficult to tell what's doing what. Ok ..... off to do his ears. I hate doing them especially when he's all happy.

Even then it wouldn't necessarily go to follow that they'd observe traffic rules if they were out roaming on their own agendas.

LisaB85 - By the sounds you have handled the whole situation well and with self-control and common sense and you did good by your pup to have the head to counteract any trauma it might have experienced by following up immediately with the intro to dogs who were appropriate to socialise with. I don't believe it is "your fault" - we should be able to have our dogs with us at off lead parks with at least a reasonable degree of safety assured. But alas, common sense doesn't prevail much these days as you've found out. As for your inclination to go with BSL .... may I take the opportunity to try to have you think differently. I have witnessed similar encounters and close encounters, the offending dog breeds being (as from what I could tell - there may be some cross mixes amongst them) : Labrador Boxer Border Collie Kelpie Maltese x Shi Tzu These that I can remember off the top of my head and quickly. So you see, it has nothing to do with breed. It has to do with silly owners. Banning breeds of dogs doesn't stop silly owners. They'll only own other breed types - even Dobes. To finish off - if this other dog had been another Doberman (let's be hypothetical to put it into perspective), would you be thinking along the lines of supporting BSL when it affects that breed and wishing it did, because of the same experience? Remember, it would affect your pup too. Or knowing how you are bringing yours up, would you be inclined to more clearly realise it is owner stupidity?