Erny

The Elizabethan collar is on so that she won't cause damage to her eye and surgery wound. There isn't much point of it if you leave her without it on - especially if you're not around as what's worse, you won't be there to supervise - so yes. She needs it on. If you have to go out, what about constructing a shelter type arrangement outside where she has the access to the yard that she needs. Did you toilet your dog before you left? It's really handy if you've trained her to toilet on command for these occasions . If she is toileted beforehand and assuming there's no medical reason to suggest otherwise, she should be able to hold on for at the very least, two or three hours (and longer) without pressing to go out. Unless she's just not used to the concept of "wait"? Hope you're feeling better soon.

Mandela's litter brother, who doesn't live in my area, is throwing almost the same symptoms. So whilst it is a thought, I'm thinking this is not the case. Part of the reason I had bloods drawn for thyroid & autoimmune function and had them analysed by Dr. Dodds was because I've often thought back about Kal and wondered if perhaps thyroid dysfunction was the originating cause for her condition. It is just something that I now would never know and I wish I'd known back then what I know now, so I could have ruled it out (or in, and done something about it sooner). In Mandela's case, thryoid levels are "excellent" and auto-immune shows up good.

Welcome to DOL, Crazy Daisy . I'm about to skip away to cook dinner, so my post will be short and sweet and lacking in full information. But I know there will be others to follow who will be able to add to this and fill in the blanks for you . First - YOU don't chose who is the higher ranking animal between the two dogs. They will usually do that amongst themselves. Second - YOU must adopt the "leader" stance. In other words, whilst the two dogs will establish the rankings amongst themselves, it is important that you establish yourself as the ultimate leader. The responsibility of leadership (in a nutshell) is protection. The benefit of leadership is (in a nutshell) respect. Third - YOU need to make sure that your smaller dog is able to eat her dinner in peace and that if your younger (although obviously considerably larger) 6mo RR is not observing the signals of your older dog to stop the obnoxious behaviour of stealing food from underneath her, then you will insist on it. This comes from doing what you need to do to by asserting your insistence that your pup observe the rule (ie boundary) you began with ..... ie not entering the older dog's room whilst eating. You set the rule - you shouldn't be allowing your 6mo pup to decide whether he wants to observe it or not. Now, speaking of eating, it's about time I did. Dinner. Yum. Wish it wasn't me who had to go cook it for myself though.

I appreciate that you're interested enough to ask, LabRat. Kal's was a very long and winding road extending over a few years, but the diagnosis (after finally finding Vet's to take notice of what I had been saying) and her ultimate demise ended up being a tumour on the adrenal gland. I had hoped that it might have been Cushings or Addisons as even though those diseases are not pretty and are not ones we'd usually wish for, there would have been things I could have done for her and which would have at the very least purchased us more time together. In her instance there was a chance of removing the tumor although the surgery (which would require a team of surgeons) carried with it a fairly high mortality rate. But if it had succeeded, she would have been cured. Unfortunately, about 4 days prior to the scheduled surgery (she had to be on a certain medication for a minimum of 3 weeks before the surgery which is why it couldn't be performed earlier, although we knew it was a case of 'the sooner the better') she began having Grand Mal seizures. The assessment then was that her brain had become affected. Surgery was therefore cancelled and I knew it was a matter of palitive care but that I would have to make the ultimate and final decision on her behalf at some stage soon into the future, and before the tumour on her adrenal gland caused it to rupture, which would have proven a ghastly death if allowed. So I chose a time (during which she was progessively deteriorating) that perhaps wasn't as long as I could have given her, but in the absence of a crystal ball, didn't want to risk the alternative. She's my heart dog and her sweetness and innocence is sadly missed. Mind you, with Mandela I don't get much time to reflect on Kal's sweetness and innocence. By comparison, he is the ultimate "Mr. Crash and Bash" with his enthusiasm and over zealous ways . And I love him too, for that .

Thanks Cosmolo. I appreciate your wishes. Yes, it is proving to be very frustrating and time consuming, not to mention expensive. But I do keep forcing myself to remember back to Kal (bless her cotton socks), for whom I wouldn't have cared about any of that if only there could have been hope of recovery, which sadly in her instance, wasn't to be. So in that sense, I consider myself and Mandela lucky .

No - thank you for thinking of us, Oonga. I am not expecting there will be much to report (out of the usual, at least) for the next couple of months.

Hi Oonga . Blood tests came in yesterday. They were "within normal limitations" so pancreas problem of any description, it seems, has been completely ruled out. Which is a bit and a bit , if you know what I mean. I haven't furthered with the "Vitamin B" theory as yet. My local Vet explained that it wasn't as simple as drawing one test - certain Vitamin B's (& others) need to be taken as serum; others in special vials or whatever. He told me he'd be happy to draw bloods for whatever tests I'd like and that I just needed to give him a list. I didn't really know exactly what I should be asking for. So I didn't. Dr. Bruce is away and although he's been responding to my emails regardless (thanks for not leaving me on my own, Dr. Bruce), I didn't want to bombard him with my thoughts (wow! that'd be a blast ) at this time. Besides, for the moment he wants me to just stick to the diet he's prescribed (along with skin/coat formula and omega blend oil) for a total of 8 weeks. Then we'll see. I am to add enzymes as well - I've just ordered them and expect them to arrive by early next week. The enzymes because it isn't understood where all the food I feed my boy ends up going - it certainly isn't plumping him up, although I think maybe a little weight has been gained at least. His weight had again dropped away in the week before the last lot of blood was taken (half kilogram) so I'm trying to get that back on him plus some. At least for the moment Mandela is eating enthusiastically again. And at the present, his stools look ok. There seems to be a pattern of going well in this respect for a few weeks, and then not. So I'm holding my breath. He broke out into lots of little bumps all over his body (not from the diet). We're riding through it at the moment rather than treating it with washes and other chemicals. He's bearing with it reasonably ok - a bit itchy but trying not to scratch when I tell him not to. I'm going to get some Claratyne or Zirtec to have on stand by should they be needed, but I think the aim is to allow the body to deal with it without interference from other chemicals etc. if we can.

Sparky25 ..... by the sounds of it with your patience, care and attention, she'll certainly have every chance for her leg to heal and strengthen. Swimming will definitely be a good form of exercise for her . And maybe at some stage some hydrotherapy (ie walking through chest height water) might help, but consult with your Vet and/or Physio therapist for that first. All the best and I hope everything progresses well, step by step (pardon the pun) from here for you both. ETA: Oops! Just read your post above and see you've already got the hydro exercise in mind. :D

Actually, IMO another e-collar success story. He had dinner on the table that time that you and I came back from the Kelpie muster . OH - Nil. E-collar - 1. Way to go (PS .... Good work, Kelpie-i's OH :D ..... you know I love you :rolleyes: )

Here's a spin based on my take of relationship change (ie for the purpose of this thread "bond") and based on what I see and feel with my own boy. When he is throwing allergy symptoms I feel sorry for him. The instinctive inclination is to go a bit easier on him and even subconsciously to lower expectations. IMO, that in itself can have an affect on the relationship because boundaries, expectations etc. have been changed (ie reduced), even if only by a little. Of course this impacts on the dog and its behaviour can alter as a result. It might not be an overt change, but it can be a change all the same and something that one might pick up as a "reduced bond level" or conversely, when things are well again and people start working with their dogs as they normally would, an "improved bond level".

You got it, Huski

And if that had been say a '10 level' collar, you probably wouldn't have felt anything on level 1, but would have jumped to level 2 to feel it and it would have been a stronger sensation than was necessary, if that makes sense.

Huski - Just to add to K9 Force's reply, a collar of 127 levels would be equivalent to a level of about (eg) 12.7 on a collar with only 15 levels. But as K9 has said, the difference is that the 127 levels gives you increments of "1" between every level that a 15 stim or 10 stim collar would have. What you asked is not a silly question.

Complex tricks I want to teach my dog : Ironing Vacuuming (not with mouth) Washing up (not with tongue) Weeding garden (without leaving gaping holes) Putting out the garbage (not eating it) bins on garbo night

Boy! (pardon the pun). DG .... you do him up like that every single morning?? I'll stick with the short and fine coated breed dogs, me thinks . Mind you, the Afghans to stand proud, don't they? .... probably a cold sensation he's not quite used to, with the breeze blowing through.

Know that there would be many of us who are not posting, but who are reading and continue to send our best wishes for Diesel, and for you. Fingers crossed for a good report come Monday .

Predominantly, I have used "training in drive" to establish his obedience skills. However, I could tell from body language when out and about on the lead that it was unlikely this would sufficiently compete with certain other distractions in the environment. Because I am training in drive, I preferred to use a tool in such a way that was not only 'kind' (e-collars have the benefit of no other collar in that there is absolutely NO influence on the dog's muscular or skeletal structure) but would not be deleterious to the drive that I had built. I have not ever put my dog in a situation where I was unable to enforce the recall command, so no, I have had no prior learnt issues with that. If we're talking an 'ideal world' I would have more people using them than not. But expense; dedication to training; goals in training; willingness to be tutored in training; and all those other factors vary from one person to another. Sometimes people's goals is just to not have their dog pull on the lead and in everything else, they are happy. So for those, whilst the e-collar would still work perfectly (and if done properly, IMO more kindly for the dog .... ) the e-collar is more than what they need (financially speaking) and satisfaction of State Laws make it the more onerous (and fair enough - I would like ANY training tool to come with some cautionary controls) - so the more readily available conventional training tools and methods are used.

Not in the early stages, no. When the dog is just learning, I start by releasing the stim as soon as the dog turns and looks. Then I move on to removing it once the dog is just in the early stage of returning to me. To promote speed with the return, you hold the stim a bit longer. I admit I haven't done the latter with my boy as his recall is so fast and so powerful, it is already daunting! It is similar to clicker training/shaping. You might want a dog to pick up a dumbell, for instance. In early shaping/clicker training, you click when the dog even first glances at the dumbell. Then (for example) when he takes a step towards the dumbell. Then when the dog touches the dumbell. So what you're doing here is waiting longer and longer as the training progresses before you give the 'click' signalling to the dog the behaviour you want and that reward is coming. If you haven't done the foundation training with the e-collar and you use it out of the blue (especially on high stim) then it is possible not so much that your dog will "blow you off" but that he will pair the stim with something else in the environment and that the stim might cause him to startle more and run off in panic. So if you did this to an untrained-to-the-e-collar-dog running after a car he might not register that the stim was because he was chasing the car. He might instead think the stim was due to that piece of paper on the ground that he spotted in the split second that the stim was applied. If foundation training has been done properly, I personally don't know of dogs (either that I've worked with or that others have worked with) that has "blown off the owner". Also, the stim is increased through the levels, so that the dog will respond JUST as the level is sufficiently high enough to have been perceived/acknowledged and responded to as is its habit from the foundation training you've previously done.

If your on-lead foundation training has been done well and consistently and you've proofed to distractions as much as you can before you move to the off-lead stage, your dog has the knowledge of what the stim is about, consequently it is not stressful as it would be if the dog didn't understand and you'd moved too far too fast with training. This is where is really is essential we don't try to hurry more than we should.

...

I have never used the e-collar on my boy as a P+ and I'd be inclined to use more 'hands on' training for your situation. This is just my own opinion, RB, and using my own boy as personal "in-house" experience, as I would not liked to have risked a possible pairing of correction with him taking things into his mouth due to me wanting to build his drive and enthusiasm for the tug. But then I have a RR and they are wooses, and not necessarily dogs with obsessive drive and inclinations that we seek for drive training as other dog breeds might have.

I would be inclined to do the same in that scenario, Midol. You've increased the stim until he's become aware of it. Which IMO, if I've understood properly what you've done, equates to using only the exact level needed for his perception at that time/moment. However, if I could have I would have returned him to a long line situation and re-worked the situation on a lower-stim (ie working level out of drive) situation to confirm the training.

Different trainers use different methods with the use of the e-collar. IMO, to NOT teach your dog what the stim is about as well as NOT building up the dog's training level to the point you describe is fraught with danger and I don't know of any reputable trainer who understands e-collar use and training who would do it that way. So in short, no. I would not teach that way. I teach the dog that the low level stim she feels can be turned off by her when she complies with my command which is about to follow. I begin this teaching on lead and in a structured fashion within a controlled environment and only then begin to work the dog in different environments doing the same. It is after that that I begin at looking to remove the lead. By this time, the dog has full knowledge of the stim, is not startled by it, and knows exactly what to do to control it (ie comply with the command). If you would like to contact me by telephone I am more than happy to talk to you to explain it better, Doglova. If you click on my signature link it will take you to my website and contact info.

Ok .... so now you have me confused . I thought (we'll call it "you're") method was this : Dog commanded known command. Dog doesn't comply (failure). Dog stimmed (low level stim). Dog complies (guided or not). So in the above instance, which I think is what you described earlier in this thread, I'm still seeing where the dog is able to learn to fail. And if "failing" means he got an extra few seconds to sniff the smelly patch on the ground, or whatever, then this is reinforced. The stim comes on - low level, so it's not too much of a worry to him and worth it for that extra few seconds of 'sniff' that he gained, and he's then guided (you mean by leash or hands on?) into the position that he should have been in. I don't recognise the "classically conditioned" response (ie command compliance) that you can get through the "no failure" method R- produces. OR by what you've just said in the above quote, do you mean that (in the learning stages) you apply the stim and then guide the dog to doing what it should do and then the stim comes off? If so, that sounds to me like you are not using the low-stim/P+ method you describe, but rather, the low-stim/R- method that I use.

What differences did you notice when you switched from one method (I presume the low stim/R-) to the one you use now (low stim/P+)?