Erny

To answer this, I think we need you to expand on your question. Eg. Does it matter to who, and in relation to what?

There are many varied methods of teaching down - as to which you use depends on your preference as well as what works best for the dog. If you wish to follow the "lure under your leg" to encourage the position, try having her on lead so that she is prevented from "short-circuiting" by leaping over. In the absence of any physical limitation which might be making this position uncomfortable for her to exhibit, I would say your girl simply doesn't understand yet what position it is that will get her the treat. Perhaps the way you are luring and/or guiding may need some adjustment to better help your girl - but for this you'd need someone with the knowledge being able to observe what you are doing and how. Eg. Maybe she needs more than a quick nudge (your "nudge" and my interpretation of it could be different) to bring her bottom down in the "lure" method? Instead, you could try to gently guide, rather than simply nudge. Her position may also be being influenced by the way you are holding the treat in your luring hand. Have it in the flat of your hand, but palm downwards. And when she's trying to nose it (thus bringing the front end down into that "bow"), slide your hand in a bit closer to her nose. This very small movement can have the effect where the dog's weight balance moves into its hind end, bringing the hind quarters down as you require. In some cases it is the method that doesn't suit. In many other cases, the method is quite suitable but the manner in which it is being applied by the handler needs some help. Do you go to dog school? Your instructers there should be able to give you some guidance. Of course a private lesson is always good, but by the sounds of it you have most things going well and you probably only need a helpful hint from someone who can cast an eye rather than a full lesson, so your money may be well saved.

I don't trial so I refrain from comment in how it has changed. I must admit I'm not fond of the unnatural constant 'head/nose pointing to the sky' and feel it gives the dog an unnatural gait, but that is simply my own personl preference and opinion - I understand it may not be shared by all. It might not be in the rule-books that dogs must heel this way, but I can see how styles are influenced by what Judges seem to favour at the time. I used to compete in Western style riding. One of the things with this style was that the gait of the horse was required to give the ultimate comfort for the rider - so instead of a 'trot', a 'jog trot' was required. Instead of 'canter' a 'lope' was required. The horse that appeared to move slowly (but still covering ground) ultimately appeared the most comfortable and smooth. And it evolved that these were the horses often put up in the prize winning arena. This of course increased the competition where many riders/handlers/trainers worked to an even slower jog-trot and lope. And so these people got put up in the winning circles. It all eventuated where people worked for so much slowness that the horses' gaits became unnatural. I would see them loping with their front legs, but because the gait was so incredibly slow, they couldn't maintain it easily, so they'd be seen to jog-trot with their back legs. I felt embarressed for these lovely proud creatures ..... watching them was a bit like watching grass grow. I'm no longer involved in the Western riding activities, but do understand the influence has again changed and that riders/trainers are returning to 'smooth but covering ground' again. Certainly an improvement, IMO. All of this is a bit - I'm sorry. But my point is that whilst the "rule-book" might not ask for it, if a certain "style" is the flavour of the month and is being selected/favoured by Judges, then that is what people will aim for and of course, in an effort to be the winning team, they want to do it that bit better than the previous winning competitor and so on and so forth until it becomes somewhat exaggerated and perhaps extreme. Just my 2 cents worth.

This one's not as clear as the initial "critical period" however it is generally stated as a period from 6 months of age through to 14 months. But as it seems to be connected to sexual maturity, this period may well be earlier for the small dogs and later for the larger breeds. IMO you are doing the right thing by avoiding the reinforcement of Hunta's fear behaviour and I would be inclined to agree with others here who have suggested you avoid forcing or placing Hunta in environments/situations that might exacerbate that fear. All the things you are doing at the moment in relation to leadership will benefit. Sas : I agree with Sas, provided the socialisation during the critical period was broad, complete and positive and that Hunta was otherwise 'confident' about the world and minus any issues prior to the onset of this present spat of behaviour. Train at or around home and in environments Hunta feels confident in.

Africandreams ..... can you describe what the containment system is for? Eg. To keep dog/s within a specific area of the already fenced yard etc.

Nobody wants to walk into the lions den. :p I think Andy’s still looking for factual information Seems no-one is opposed to the proper and appropriate use of the prong collar.

This is not my understanding. I know that e-collars may be used in the "restricted" sense (ie with Vet permission AND under the supervision of a qualified trainer) but understand the prong-collar is simply "banned" from use. From the "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Regulations Act 1997" "7D. Use of pronged collars prohibited A person must not use a pronged collar on any animal. Penalty: 5 penalty units 7E. Use of certain electronic collars prohibited (1) A person must not use an electronic dog training collar that can impart an electric shock on a dog or any other animal except in the circumstances in sub-regulation (2). Penalty: 5 penalty units. (2) Sub-regulation (1) does not apply to a person who uses an electronic dog training collar on a dog - (a) if a veterinary practitioner has examined the physical health and temperament of the dog and reasonably believes that the dog is suitable to have an electronic dog training collar used on it; AND (my highlight of the word "and") (b) the person is - (i) a veterinary practitioner; or (ii) acting on the instructions of a veterinary practitioner; or (iii) a qualified dog trainer (within the meaning of regulation 13(2) of the Domestic (Feral and Nuisance) Animals Regulations 1996); or (iv) acting under the supervision of a qualified dog trainer (within the meaning of regulation 13(2) of the Domestic (Feral and Nuisance) Animals Regulations 1996)." Unless there has been a further change in the legislation that I am not aware of, I believe the above to be the current status.

Rom - I agree with the contents of your well written post. I have often pointed out that whilst a dog on a standard collar (ie one that simply goes around the neck) may walk on a long lead in reasonable safety, those on a head-collar should not be given as much freedom. Otherwise a dog who suddenly decides to forge/lunge ahead runs a high risk of suddenly checking at the end of the lead, the momentum of which results in a quick snap with upward turn of the head. Of the DVD's supplied by the manufacturers of the head-collars that I have seen, the dogs are generally demonstrated as walking next to their owners. I like to be able to give a dog the freedom to sniff and explore the environment within the proximity of a lead when I go out for a casual walk. The other thing I like about the prong-collar is that I tend to adjust it so the prongs cause the link to span the trachea, therefore alleviating any pressure to this area when a correction is applied. I have also experimented on myself as to the different sensations of the head-collar, flat collar and prong collar. My experiment for the head-collar were similar, if not the same, as yours Rom. And I find the sensation of a pinch of the skin renders me more responsive than a check on the chain or a flat collar, and yet the discomfort of the "pinch" is short-lived compared with that which acts on the neck muscle. I presume our pain receptors in the upper skin level is more sensitive than those in our muscles and would on this basis conclude this to be the reason why a lesser correction is required to effect a maximum response.

Tilly - excellent report. Would you mind sending it to me via email at the address given in my post above yours? Thanks

And I have it ........... thanks Rom.

All good contributions guys - these are the sorts of things I actually need emailed to me (refer Prong Collars - Submission to change Victorian Legislation thread. This thread is mainly for those who wish to "lash it out" (for want of better words - even though they might be appropriate ones ). It is a thread for people such as Andy, who actually did post in the aforementioned thread, but that wasn't what THAT thread was for. This thread is for people who don't agree with the prong and who would like to say why, provided they are prepared to enter conversation with those who do agree with prongs (and who would also like to say why). So - for those who posted a story/contribution that would do well as part of the actual submission to government, would you mind sending it to me at my email address [email protected] Thanks.

Thank you so much, MsJames. Your help is appreciated. Very much.

Ok - normally this type of thread would have people clammering to have their say. Perhaps it is that time of night where many are leaving and making their way home from work ............... or maybe some have become shy? It doesn't matter in this thread if you chose to tell stories of how you've had difficulties using one type of equipment (or even injuries that have occurred as a result) where with the other there has been success. I will start with my view :- There are some dogs who sport injury (perhaps by car accident) or genetic fault and are precluded from even the pressure of a flat collar on their throats. The only option for these dogs are equipment such as a harness – which has limited ability/effect as a training tool; or a head-collar. The head-collar as a “positive” training-aid needs closer scrutiny. They may look ‘kinder’ to the uninitiated, but many dogs have suffered surface abrasions ranging from mild through to serious as a result of their use – even when fitted correctly. There is a very real potential for neck damage as the result of whiplash and as a result, their use is limiting. For many dogs merely the fitting of the head-collar is an aversive, whether being applied or not. This is not the truth for other styles of training equipment, such as the check-chain or pinch-collar. In the latter cases, when not being applied, the dog is comfortable and unimpeded, an essential in the training of dogs, who need to learn both the behaviours we want, as well as those that we do not.

Ok - the new thread is up so off you go. But don't forget along the way to continue to supply those reports/submissions etc. as it is these that will form a major component of the submission. Yes - MsJames ..... if I could get hold of evidentary information rather than mostly anecdotal it would make a difference.

As you're most likely by now aware, I am gathering submissions/reports/essays etc. etc. for collating with a view to submitting to Victorian Government to lift the current "ban" on Pressure Point Collars [PPC] (aka "pinch" or "prong" collars) and a shift to "restricted" use. The purpose of this thread is to welcome discussion from those who are pro-PPC as well as from those who are anti-PPC. Yes - it's all been done before but the difference with this thread is that it is likely to be printed off and used as a part of the total submission to government. So - whether you're "for" or whether you are "against" - it doesn't matter. Just be prepared to be able to back up your thoughts and/or opinions (with sensible reason if not hard core evidence) or at least contribute from and with an educational view. It doesn't matter who would like to start it off. Whether that be from someone who would like to see legislation (remember - in Victoria it is a total "ban") changed so that the prong may be used, albeit as a "restricted" training tool .... or from someone who is anti-prong and doesn't want to see the legislation changed (but be prepared to say why). Ok - so I think it's a case of "ready, set and go .................. " ETA: It goes without saying to refrain from personal attacks regardless of which side of the fence you sit on .

Raven - thanks, but this sort of post will do much better if you could perhaps repeat it in the new thread (which I will create later and for which the intent will still be to include in the government submission) rather than here? Have to go to dentist now (I've been forestalling ) but will return later.

Thanks Denis. But given this : "They may NOT be reproduced on any website, discussion board or group for any reason. " would we be prohibited from including this article in the submission to government?

Hi guys. Thanks for all your responses and interest in this project. Whilst I want to kick-start this submission to govt as quickly as possible, please know that it will take a while. Obviously, the sooner I can get submissions/reports/essays in from you guys, the quicker the submission to govt itself will take shape. But I don't want you to think you only have a day or two to get it done. If I can get them in over the next few weeks or so that will be great. Once I've got a mainstream of them in, I will be announcing this project to another interested group. Oh - and I will be starting another thread. This new thread will be a thread where all discussion about prongs - whether you like them or not - will be entertained. But this new thread will be one where it is clearly announced that I intend to eventually print it out for possible inclusion in the submission to government that I am (well .... in point of fact, "we" are) putting together. Stay tuned. The new thread will come up later. Unfortunately I have cause to go visit the dentist very shortly.

Hi HR . I knew I could rely on you. And I will ...... I promise . If you can do what you can to spread the word and ask people to provide written essays/reports .............. any that fit into the categories I've listed in the OP, that would be great.

If there are any available that people can get hold of, then yes, this is something I'd like to include. But remember - the design of the submission is not necessarily to highlight how bad other pieces of equipment are - more about how much better the prong collar can be and why taking away its use is not advantageous to dogs or their owners. Yes please.

Not received yet PIP ?????? Will check again shortly, just in case it's on its way. Have it now. Thanks PIP.

Yes, yes and yes. Please. Will look forward to receiving your email. Address is in OP.

Not received yet PIP ?????? Will check again shortly, just in case it's on its way.

I think this is covered under Australia Federal Legislation?? Mr K9 Force would know. Thanks Jeff. Mr. K9 Force ...... yoooo whooo !!!!

Thanks Tony. But I need people's submissions, so don't be leaving town. :rofl: