Staranais

Yes Tess, at least he's enthusiastic! Don't want to curb his enthusiasm by telling him off for his "super fast" finish, so I might have a go using a target stick instead. It's all I can think of at the moment! Though am worried he'll go back to the old behaviour when I fade the stick. Chezzyr, is she excited by the reward or by the trick itself? If it's anticipation of the reward which is making her act crazy, maybe give her a less exciting reward?

Problem is whenever my dog's excited he runs right round me to the front again instead of stopping in heel position at my side. If he's extra excited, he does laps round me! ;) My boyfriend (unknown to me) reinforced that behaviour for quite a long time, and now I can't seem to iron out the problem. My dog understands what I'm asking for as he finishes beautifully when he's calm, but when he's excited it's like he just can't help himself.

Sorry Norsgka, but... EWWW! I assume you're currently teaching him NOT to lift his leg on furniture or in the house? If you're firm and consistent they can learn, and it makes them much nicer to live with.

Haha, same thing has happened here! A few months ago, I was attempting to teach my dog a nice round-the-back finish: he got really good at running round my back, but for the life of me I couldn't get him to understand he had to consistently finish in heel position. A couple of weeks later my boyfriend came to me with a huge proud grin and a very excited dog, and said "Look at us! I've taught the dog to run in circles around and around and around me!" So same as you, Yogi, I had been asking the dog to finish and he had been thinking "I know this one!" and just running round and round and round me... ;) We still haven't got a perfect finish, by the way (any suggestions gratefully accepted)!

I too would probably prefer a mild verbal aversive along with a scowl or hard stare, followed by redirecting the pup to a more appropriate chew toy (and giving him heaps of positive attention for chewing on that). Like Tess said, the pup isn't being willfully disobedient, he merely doesn't know any better at this stage. IMO it's unfair to scare or physically punish him for doing something he didn't realise was "wrong". On the other hand, if you are just holding the pup still by the scruff (rather than shaking him by the scruff or picking him up by the scruff), I guess I can see little wrong with that. How is holding a pup still by the scruff worse to holding him still by any other part of the body? Just my opinion, as normal, and not a qualified one.

Mine cocks to mark, and squats to "proper pee". I too would rather have a dog that didn't naturally cock his leg, cos it's a pain trying to teach them not to do it. (Let's face it, there's nothing grosser than a dog leaving little pee spots on your neighbours fences and letter boxes when you're out for a walk; plus the last thing I need my dog-aggressive dog doing is marking his territory all around the neighbourhood.) My dog now knows that marking on leash is not appropriate, but I've never been able to stop him marking off leash. :D

Oh OK, I didn't realise there was a difference between "permission to eat" and "food refusal".

The most sensible way I've heard so far to teach this (thanks Erny!) is to introduce your "release" command first. Every time you give the dog something to eat, give him the "release" command that says it is OK to eat. After a while, you can start introducing corrections for eating when you haven't given the "release" command. For a puppy, I imagine the corrections could just be a verbal "uh-uh" and removal of the food. I don't imagine it would take the puppy long to learn the difference between the release command (= you can eat) and no release command (= don't eat yet). When the puppy has that down, you'll need to proof the command - different foods, different locations, different people giving the release command, and probably also set up situations where food is present and you are out of sight. Each time ensuring that the puppy is only able to eat after the command is given. Like I said, this isn't my protocol and I haven't used it myself. It does make logical sense to me, however. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about, K9? I don't understand how that would negatively affect a dog, but you're the pro - so could you explain? ;)

My understanding of food refusal is that the dog is taught to leave all food until given a specific release command allowing him to eat (by anyone). Sort of like teaching the dog to wait for dinner, only the dog is taught that the "wait for permission" rule applies to all food the dog might find. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about that might cause problems later on for the dog? Just interested - haven't tried this with my dog. ;)

If you PM Erny, she might be willing to discuss this with you one-on-one. I know she has taught food refusal to several dogs (including her own), without an ecollar.

Maybe she's telling you to take a break from formal obedience class for a while? I don't know what it's like where you train, but traditional hour-long obedience classes can grow to be stressful and boring for some dogs. You could use the break as an opportunity to keep practicing at home in shorter sessions, or as an opportunity to proof her obedience skills by taking her out to different places once a week for a short obedience session. If you want to keep going to class, my only other thought is that she doesn't sound particularly excited by the reinforcements you are offering. Whatever you choose to use as your reward, it has to be good enough to convince your dog to work for it. To me, it sounds like the rewards you are offering your dog just aren't exciting enough to motivate her at all. If you find a reward that truly excites your dog, I think you'll find her enthusiasm improves overnight! Do you restrict her access to toys at other times? She'll work harder for a toy reward if she only gets to play with the toy occasionally. Or perhaps you'll have to find some other reward to "float her boat" - does she have a very favourite game that you could use to reward her? Or if she's a social butterfly, you could even use the chance to meet or greet other dogs as a reward for obedience?

Thanks, that makes sense.

One question then, K9force - If you're using an ecollar as an environmental correction (e.g to deter a dog from marking things or digging) you obviously need the collar set higher than you would use it for low-stim ecollar work, right? So are you saying that you can't employ both uses of the collar for the same dog? Because he'll always be worrying that the low-stim will turn into a high-stim "enviromental correction". Or is there a way of using both methods effectively on the same dog? Hope that question made some sense.

Sorry K9, perhaps I phrased that badly. I was meaning that I don't believe that any modern ecollar could "shock" my dog out of prey drive, since he seems to be amazingly immune to pain when in drive. Since your methods don't rely on "shocking" a dog out of drive, it wasn't a comment on your methods.

Was that my dog? If not, I can vouch that the same thing has happened to me. My dog hesitated for a moment, then took off again after the ducks. The continuous high stim only seemed to hype him up more. I've also had the experience of my dog nearly puncturing his eyeball on a stick (the splinter went half way through the cornea), and immediately bringing the stick back to me for me to throw it again. I honestly don't believe any modern ecollar could deter my dog in full prey drive, if a punctured eyeball couldn't. Funny thing is, he's only a pet. I bet the police and schutzhund dogs K9force comes into contact with are much higher in drive than he is!

I wouldn't just give the dog all his toys to play with at once, I'd make him earn them one at a time. But that doesn't need to wait for training sessions. If he's looking a little bored, why not ask him for a "sit" or a "down" and then toss him a toy to play with for a while. It doesn't have to be a sit - you could make him lie down, or shake hands, or speak, or roll over. Doesn't matter if it's a silly command, cos the point is him working for what he wants, rather than being given it for free. Are you still in the early stages of teaching the sit? If so, just give him the small piece of cookie you lured him with, with lots of praise. Say "yes!" and throw him the small piece of cookie as soon as his butt hits the ground. You can demand longer sits when he's got the hang of this. But if he already knows the meaning of the sit command well, you shouldn't have to lure him with food anymore.

I getcha, thanks.

Depends on your definition of "offleash", I guess. He's dragging the long line behind him - I'm not holding it.

Thanks Myszka. I believe you - but no point me trying an ecollar until I have learned another way of using it. I have borrowed one and tried it simply as an aversive for this type of thing, and have learned that if there is a prey item on offer my dog ignores the collar even on the highest setting, even if we are 100m away from the prey item (yes, he is NUTS). So I'll take a raincheck on the ecollar for this problem, until I know more about training and drives. I'd rather keep my dog on leash for a while longer than muck him up with using an ecollar incorrectly. He's currently on longline whenever he's offleash and not in a fenced area. (His recall is excellent EXCEPT when there's either entire male dogs or particular prey items close by... very annoying.) But like I said, he's not that dumb - he's fast learning the difference between longline and no longline.

Thanks K9, that makes a lot of sense. If he honestly believes there is no chance of getting a duck, I guess it will make sense to him to work for the tennis ball instead. I will work him around distractions, and make it clear to him that going for the duck is not an option to satisfy his prey drive. I guess my only concern is that he's not a stupid dog, that no matter how well trained he gets on leash, when I finally get around to working him off-leash around distraction he's going to realise the rules have changed and will probably try to beat me. And if the leash is off I really will have no way to physically stop him from chasing, or effectively correct him for chasing either (Remote collar corrections for this won't stop him, I have borrowed one and tried, and he is just so crazy that even a correction that would make me yelp is totally ignored when he sees a prey object like a duck). Thanks again for spending the time.

K9, this isn't my thread, but may I ask a question? It's probably a dumb one, sorry. I should qualify this to say that he will heel really nicely under most distractions, since he's quite focused on earning his tennis ball. But to be honest, I'm not sure whether I could heel him past ducks without correcting him (reducing his drive). If he felt he had the choice, I think he'd much prefer to try to get a duck than earn a tennisball. He has quite high prey drive (for a pet) and has had the satisfying experience of mauling ducks in the past, so if duck was on the cards I don't know if the chance to earn a tennis ball would hold his attention in quite the same way. What is best to do in this cirumstance, when the dog knows that the prey object you have to offer him isn't nearly as exciting as the prey object he could gain from non-compliance? I'm not keen on keeping a duck under my jacket to present to him for correct heeling, though I guess that would work really well! Is this just a matter of working him near ducks, and making sure that he never ever gets a chance to chase them again? Thanks heaps.

But if the dog thinks that obeying the command to "heel" can earn him a chance to satisfy his prey drive, then isn't he heeling in prey drive? Just saying this as when I tell my dog to "heel" his face lights up and he springs to attention, since he knows he's just been given the chance to earn a tennis ball.

It might, and it might not. That's not something anyone can really tell you over the internet (or else we'd all be really rich, lol). Going to classes and starting TOT/NILIF will almost certainly help. It may not help immediately, and as Nekbet says the behaviour may get a little worse before it gets better (think of the world from your dog's point of view - if you had always been pampered and spoiled, and suddenly your doormat owner started to assert herself and demand respect, wouldn't you be a little annoyed as well for a few days?) But you are consistent with the rules, you should see an improvement in behaviour over a few weeks. And I promise you, it will make your dog happier in the long term. Dogs feel safer when they know they have a secure position in a strong pack, with a trustworthy leader. If you don't see the improvement you'd like to see in a couple of months, you can still always call in a professional behaviourist or trainer then. Of course, there's nothing to stop you calling one in now for a consultation (hint, hint!) I've got to admit that my dog gets on the sofa - but on the condition that when I ask him to get off he does so politely and immediately! Many of these NILIF rules can be relaxed when your dog has accepted his place in the pack structure, and does not display dominance-type behaviours towards you any longer. But IMO it's best to start off using all of the rules, and then decide which ones to relax later on.

I've heard that K9force's triangle of temptation is a good one too: http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...e+of+temptation Basically, the idea behind either of these programmes (NILIF and TOT) is to make the dog work for whatever it is that he wants. I mean, think about it - if you just give your dog whatever he asks for (food, attention, toys) without demanding anything in return, he will have no reason to respect your authority or leadership. As far as he is aware, these things (food, attention, toys) are his natural right to have, however badly he behaves. What both these programmes do is make it clear to the dog that you are the provider of the things that he wants, and if he wants your things, he has to behave appropriately and obediently. Of course, it's a great idea to find a good local behaviourist too.

I haven't seen her back yet. But perhaps she just doesn't have access to a computer every day; or perhaps some of the passionate replies here have put her off a little. Might as well give her the benefit of the doubt till proven otherwise. Besides, I thought her spelling was too good to be a troll's.