zenchel

Please provide references for this statement. You might have manufacturers making an appointment to see you in court - I have scoured the literature re Cartrophen and can find no references to long term kidney and/or liver damage. Sylvia

Absolutely. I have just done the calculations on the Dogzonline puppy listings, as of today: 26% are all choc litters 24% are all yellow litters 14% are all black litters 8% are choc/black litters 2% are choc/yellow litters 16% are black/yellow litters 10% are three colour litters That means 46% of all litters have some choc pups in them. 10% of litters are deliberately bred with the knowledge that the yellows in them may have liver points, not acceptable in the standard. 24% of these breeders advertise as being involved in some form of discipline with their dogs e.g. show, obed, field work etc. That means 76% of them probably don't take part in any formalised activity with their dogs. 9% of the breeders advertising chocolates state that they take part in some formalised activity. That means 91% of breeders advertising chocolates don't. I do not believe that in those 26% choc x choc litters that the choc stud dog chosen was the most suitable and complementary mate for the bitch that was available to the breeder. I do believe the choc stud was chosen solely because the combination would produce all brown dogs. These breeders' ads make all the claims under the sun about the "quality" of their pups - if the breeders have never tested their dogs against others in the conformation ring or working arena, how do they measure their quality? How do they know what is "quality" if they have never studied the breed standard or read of the history of the breed and the bloodlines that they are taking vicarious advantage of. Yes, they are all hip and elbow scored, mostly with acceptable scores, but do these breeders know what genetic issues are lurking behind these dogs? Most have one parent with a DNA PRA clearance, but precious few advertise up to date eye clearances. And the prices ;) That's enough of a rant - just wanted to point out how true the old maxim is "On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog" Sylvia

Also please read the following - it is a direct cut and paste from the PennHIP web site: "My vet has advised a surgical procedure to avoid the development of arthritis in my dog later in life based on the results of his PennHIP examination. Should I have my dog operated on? Answer: Until appropriate randomized and controlled clinical trials are designed and conducted, it is premature to use the Distraction Index as an indication for hip surgery, either remedial or preventive. At present several different surgical procedures (Triple pelvic osteotomy, Juvenile symphysiodesis) have been advocated by some veterinary surgeons to prevent the development of arthritis (degenerative joint disease) later in life in dogs with excess joint laxity (loose hips). None of these procedures have undergone scientific clinical trials that have proven THEIR EFFICACY in preventing the onset or slowing the development of arthritis in dogs with hip dysplasia. Although WE ARE not fundamentally against the use of preventative surgical management of dogs with excessive hip laxity, WE FEEL THE WHOLESALE CLINICAL USE OF PURPORTEDLY PREVENTIVE SURGICAL PROCEDURES BEFORE ADEQUATE TESTING IS CONDUCTED, IS UNJUSTIFIED. WE ADVISE CAUTION! It may be that in the future when good evidence exists to support the efficacy of these procedures their use will be encouraged" Sylvia

OK, change of plan. The judging will be inside, as the weather forecast is not too good. Sorry, Sylvia Secretary Canine Museum Foundation

The Canine Museum Foundation Championship Show on Sunday April 11 at KCC Park will be held outside. See you there, Sylvia Power Secretary Canine Museum Foundation

Has anybody read the latest Pet Stock magazine "Pet Lifestyle"? It has an interview with Wally Conron, the former Guide Dog Breeding Manager who invented the labradoodle. Just some random quotes from the article - it's not available online yet. "Were breeders bothering to check their sires and bitches for hereditary faults, or were they simply caught up in delivering to hungry customers the next status symbol?" - Wally Conron. "Many of the breeds that followed Wally's example have proved either behaviourally difficult or unsuitable to the purpose for which they were bred." "A hell of a lot of the labradoodles are crazy.... if you have breeds that have histories of OCD, PRA, HD or epilepsy or something, you're asking for trouble." - Wally Conron. "People think they're all allergy free, but they're not. Very few are." - Wally Conron. The article itself is a bit of a mish mash - a great number of the quotes from Wally damns the doodles, however the article still attempts to praise Wally for creating a great new breed and starting the designer dog craze. I think the author started out with a conclusion before doing the research, but in the process of researching discovered that the conclusion wasn't necessarily as attractive as he'd thought. Good on ya, Wally This is the site where the edition will eventually appear. Pet Lifestyle Magazine Sylvia

No - UK show lines.

Just thought I'd let everybody know that tonight I heard the tragic news from a Lab breeder friend that their dog died whilst in an EIC episode. Up until now I've been fairly sceptical of the reports of EIC leading to death, however this news has come as a real wake up call. Sylvia

Cripes, that'd be me, then Talk about an inquisition three years after the event I give anybody that talks about wanting litter mates (or pups of the same age, not necessarily sibs) the exact same advise as most of you have stated on this thread, however I do not regret the two occasions that I have sold litter mates to the one family. In both cases upon meeting the prospective purchasers it didn't take me long to realise that these two families were the puppy purchasers that dreams are made of. The first pair (Jade and Amber, about twenty years ago) gave Lynda and Eric so much happiness and received so much love in return (actually I got a Christmas card again from them this year) and the two in question, Bella and Emily, are a match made in heaven for Jan and Stan. I finally discovered that Jan was the one who nominated me for the MDBA award, (thanks Jan - you bitch ) Horses for courses; no black and white, only grey; blah blah blah.... Sylvia

Generally ALL kennels work like motels - pick up before a certain morning time e.g. 10.00, 11.00, noon, whatever and you don't pay for that day. It's a bit cheeky charging an extra day when morning pick up is not available, however over summer holidays some kennels charge a minimum of a fortnight regardless of how long you want the dog to stay there . You can't actually collect the dog within that fortnight! Also, daily rates vary enormously from state to state, area to area and aren't always a good indication of the care that your dog will get. If it's a large kennel you probably won't see the person that actually cares for your dog when you drop off or pick up, so it's not unusual that they didn't appear to have a clue about your boy. There's probably (hopefully, at least) a kennel girl that looked after your guy each day and knows him really well - knows his funny little ways, how he likes his food presented, which hand he has to shake before he's allowed to eat, how he likes his rug laid on his bed etc It's one of the drawbacks of a large kennel or a busy time - lack of continuity of care. I felt awful last week when a regular customer came to pick up their Rottie girl and seemed a bit anxious - "was she alright?" - "yes, of course she was, why do you ask?" I said. "Oh, she didn't want to go with the girl that was here when we dropped her off". I was out picking up dog supplies to last us over the coming holiday period and couldn't be there to take the Rottie in. My part time kennel girl who knows the dog well and I have the greatest faith in, was probably just not who the Rottie expected to see at the office!! Anyhow, all ended OK but I felt that I'd let her down by not being there when she arrived It's OK though - she's back in for a few days and I greeted her at the car - she was really pleased to see me When people ring to enquire how their dogs are going, it is really reassuring for them if you can say something about the dog's individual ways, because they then know that you are actually communicating with and caring for their dog. Sometimes an issue in a big establishment. I have kennels because I love dogs - I wouldn't be happy just sitting in the office handing out invoices, operating the eftpos machine and working out staff pay and rosters. I like being with the dogs, poo and all Sylvia

Yeah - what they said

To my knowledge, there is no test for epilepsy in ANY breed, least of all Labradors. The above quote is contradictory. "Idiopathic" - adjective used primarily in medicine meaning arising spontaneously or from an obscure or unknown cause. (Wiki) If the cause is spontaneous or unknown, how can there be a test for it? I am aware of research on tests for epilepsy, however I don't believe there has been any breakthrough yet, particularly in Labs. If epilepsy is autosomal recessive in Labs, then I'm a monkey's uncle In my experience, I would bet on epilepsy being polygenic and in practical terms behaving as a dominant with incomplete penetrance. Anyone that has witnessed an EIC collapse and an epileptic seizure, of whatever variety, would not mistake one for the other. However the explanation of the physical characteristics of either (or for that matter heat stroke) as related to a vet by an anxious owner (after the dog in question has returned to normal) may lead to a confused and/or mistaken diagnosis. Sylvia

Not speaking for Sylvia, but she typed 60% carrier, which should mathematically translate to 8% affected, but the latest figures showa higher total in Australia. Sylvia's numbers: (700 affected +2595 carriers) /6959 total =47% affected or carriers . . . but 40% or 60%, the point is the gene is widespread and the decision to breed it out will mean dropping a lot of dogs from the gene pool. Hells bells - serves me right for quoting from memory. I have found the email (dated Sep 1) with the Aus numbers in it: 98 tested 51 carriers 52% 23 affected 24% 24 clear 24% BUT - remember these are really skewed as there has been an influx of presumed DNA affecteds (ie dogs that have collapsed) and their relatives and also it is a really small sample. The figures from U Minn are much closer to the mark. Yes, SG I have seen dogs collapse with EIC. I had a bitch collapse several times in the mid nineties; try as I might I couldn't get to the bottom of what was going on. I sent blood to Susan Taylor for the original research, however was told my bitch can't have had EIC as they were working with US field trial lines and my bitch's pedigree was so far removed from those as to be of no use. Rather unscientific I thought, but there you go. Having been cleared from all known genetic issues at the time, that bitch had three litters; there has been no report of collapsing dogs amongst her offspring, however her daughter came back DNA affected (as of course did she). They are boarding with me at the moment - the collapsing bitch turns 15 next January. We now know what her issue was, however I concur with SG and BlackDog's concerns re making rash decisions based on the EIC DNA test. For me, PRA is almost a non issue now - yes, there are still a few carriers around and I would certainly use them if I thought they were the best choice, assuming the partner was clear. In fact I have a carrier bitch (daughter of my Master Mariner son Pete, who was a carrier) who I'm waiting to mate next season. She's also an EIC carrier, which is making life interesting Sylvia

The last figures I had from Univ Minn were: 700 affected 2595 carrier 3664 clear 6959 Total I just can't put my hands on the exact figures from GTG at the moment, but from memory there had been ~100 dogs tested, with approx 60% carrier rate. The US figures are slowly approaching their expected 3-5% affected, which have initially been higher - skewed because people with collapsing dogs and implicated bloodlines have been the major uptake of the test. The Australian figures are still skewed on the high side for the same reason. I have NEVER heard of a case of narcolepsy in Labs - plenty in Lab breeders and plenty of Lab breeders wish that their dogs suffered from it sometimes :D I haven't got the time nor the inclination to investigate the issue with the DNA mutation obviously existing (if there is a DNA test for it) and the complete lack of clinical manifestation of it. The same applies to the DNA test for cystinuria in Labs. The important thing is for all breeders, breed clubs, NBCs and the ANKC to take control of this DNA testing lark before it runs away with us. Sylvia

There are NO breeding restrictions anywhere on EIC results, except possibly in individual breeding programs, but that's up to the individual breeders, as it is with so many other aspects of breeding. This flyer is really quite informative: EIC FAQ However there are points made in the flyer that are not relevant to the situation here in Australia, mainly that it is not only field trial bred dogs that are carrying the mutation. The mutation is widely distributed amongst UK and US show bred dogs and hence many Australian show bred dogs. Although the DNA test results seem to be totally valid, the correlation between them and the clinical features of the dogs give cause for concern. There are many dogs world wide that have tested DNA affected but have never collapsed. Possible reasons for this are: (1) The dog has not been stimulated to a high enough level to collapse. (2) There is an environmental "trigger" for each individual dog that causes it to collapse and this dog has not experienced its trigger. (e.g. live game, competition with other dogs, a bitch in season etc) (3) There is a modifying gene that either "protects" the dog from collapsing, or the dog needs this modifier to collapse and this non collapsing DNA affected dog does not have it. Many responsible, ethical breeders all over the world are very sceptical about this test and even the existence of this thing called EIC, as they have never seen a dog collapse, even during high level activity. They see no point in DNA testing as there is no evidence in their breeding program of a problem. Some breeders are convinced, usually by witnessing a dog collapse, that it is a very important issue that Lab breeders the world over need to address and are DNA testing everything and making breeding decisions based on those test results. I'm guessing the majority of breeders are somewhere between these two ends of the spectrum. This is a link to video of a collapsing dog EIC Video Sylvia

Sorry 1st of November Ohhhh I misread.......in that case thats only a week away. You would of thought then if she had an ultrasound at 4 weeks, then they would of saw something if she was pregnant. Throw the ultrasound machine away and XRAY her - not only will it confirm or otherwise her pregnancy, if she is pregnant you will know how many pups she's got. In my experience ultrasound after five, maybe five and a half weeks is a waste of time in inexperienced hands, which the majority of GP vets are re ultrasound. After six weeks xray is the way to go. Sylvia

Barry Haywood!!! Sylvia