Working_Setters

K9 - There's no doubt that there are times of unpleasantness when I train a gundog, but please don't misunderstand me, the VAST majority of my training is positive. Exercises are broken down into small, achievable steps, dogs successfully achieve these steps and are rewarded for doing so. If however, once a dog has learnt an exercise it decides not to obey, there will be some unpleasantness. A trained dog ignoring the stop whistle and chasing a rabbit is one such example. Every successful working gundog trainer I'm aware of uses some unpleasantness in their training from time to time. Temptations are extremely high for working gundogs, rabbits and ducks at close range, blood and other exciting scents abound. Yes, working gundog owners want driven, enthusiastic dogs. We want far more energy and enthusiasm than the major of dog owners, so we're very mindful of not being overly physical and sapping that enthusiasm. However, all that energy and enthusiasm needs to be controlled, which in the opinion of every successful gundog trainer I'm aware of requires some unpleasantness from time to time. Again it's not the amount of unpleasantness that's key, but the timing and application appropriate to the dog in question. If you are telling me you can achieve a fully trained, reliable working gundog, a driven dog that goes hard and performs to trial standard without any unpleasantness, then I'll happily part with the $$ for you to teach me. But I have high standards and know a lot of gundog trainers here and in the USA, and as I said, none achieve these results without unpleasantness from time to time.

My dogs (all driven dogs??) don't want to stop to whistle, they stop b/c they know from past experience it will be unpleasant if they ignore the whistle

I agree, dog should fly out and back with equal speed. Flying back means getting to do the next retrieve faster, which is something every good retriever wants. A properly FRed dog will do this. An abused dog will trot back, fearful of returning to the trainer, but this abuse, not correct use of FRing. I'm not knocking your motivational methods, approx half the working gundogs in the world are trained to retrieve along these lines. The other half are FRed. There are pros and cons to both.

Certainly that is a possibility, but IMO it very much depends on the trainer. I have seen many, many dogs that were FRed in this way that were extremely driven/snappy(fast)/happy/determined retrievers. ETA I'm talking about working and trialing gundogs, I have no experience with other breeds and obedience trials etc.

Force retrieving (FR) isn't that common in Oz, our gundog training methods are largely inherited from the British, who traditionally also don't use FR. However the vast majority of working gundogs, working retrievers etc in the USA and parts of Europe (Germany for example) are routinely FR. The advantage of FR? IMO, and in the opinion of the hundreds of thousands of other folk that use this method, it makes a dog a more dependable retriever. Obedience trials etc are one thing, but when you are using a dog to retrieve shot ducks etc, then a dog refusing a retrieve is not acceptable. If you are going to shoot an animal, then you need to make every effort to recover that animal for the table, that includes having a well trained dog. The problem I have with not FRing a dog is this, if you say "FETCH" and the dog doesn't go, how do you enforce the command? If I say "SIT" and the dog's ass doesn't hit the grass, there will be a negative consequence for the dog. If I say "COME" and the dog ignores this command, there will be a negative consequence for the dog. Why should "FETCH" be any different? FR gives you the structure to be able to apply a negative to a dog refusing a "FETCH" command and it's done in such a way that the dog knows to stop/prevent the negative, all it has to do is obey the "FETCH" command. I don't know how to achieve this with any other method of teaching fetch. ETA: I'm talking about applying a negative to trained dog, a dog that knows what the command means, but has decided it would prefer not to obey. Ignoring COME in preference to chasing a rabbit for example. I know there are some barbaric idiots out there, but done correctly (or at least what I consider to be correctly) FR results in minimal discomfort to the dog. Like all other corrections, it's about timing and reading the dog, not causing the maximum amount of pain. That's cruel and pointless in every aspect of training (or at least every aspect of training with which I familiar) and FR is no different.

Hi Rom - Whilst agreeing with your post, I would suggest that DOL is primarily a pet/show forum, with only a limited number of people seriously interested in training dogs to a high level, as such this type of thing is always likely to be a problem. If you'd like to learn about dog training from real trainers without the clueless interjections from people who have never seen, let alone understand how to use, prongs, e-collars or clickers for that matter, then I'd suggest there are a number of better places on the net than DOL.

Ok - I got a bit confused, I thought you were concerned about aggression from your dog toward dog cousins, but re-reading I see the thread has split into dog/dog issues and dog/lizard issues. My original post was in regard to dog/dog issues. Dog/lizard issues when the dogs in question are JRTs, that's a whole different issue..................best of luck with that one!! It's possible to reptile proof your dogs (search for snake proofing), but that seems a little extreme in this case. What I'd probably do is as soon as you arrive and nobody else can see the backyard, is coming dashing into the house and say "I saw a huge kookaburra in the backyard just now and I think he was having a go at your blue tounge". That way if the lizard does go missing, you can always blame the 'burra

I would do whatever it takes to convince the dog it has seriously erred. However I'm unable to give you specific advice as each dog is different. What would crush one dog, another might barely notice. Your response needs to be appropriate to your dog. ETA my response would be physical. Highly agree with comments already made about correct check chain placement, high up the neck, just behind ears, is sooooooo much more effective. It seems to me that it maybe very difficult to proof this behaviour in time for your up coming holiday, particularly as you're planning to leave the dog in the backyard unsupervised for hours on end. Separation seems to me the best short term solution, if you wont kennel the dog, the perhaps a crate or some other means to keep the dogs physically separated.

GREAT WORK SAS Hope it works out for Cobber soon

I think this is it? Agree that is AMAZING dog work, control is BRILLIANT. Does anybody have a dog that will heal like that and if so, how did you do it?

There are moves in parts of the UK to muzzle Mals engaged in this type of work in order to reduce compensation claims for the damage they inflict when biting. Apparently these muzzled dogs are trained to knock over their targets with a "flying head-butt". See article HERE I believe the move to muzzle may have been prompted by an incident in which a Mal severed a man's hand at the wrist. Apparently muzzled Mals still pack quite a punch, with the steel bar in muzzle designed to protect the dogs during the "head-butt", they have broken noses and ribs.

Just like Inspector Rex - well almost These dogs are really wired, notice even the handler copped a bite, but I assume the dog wasn't serious or else this hand would be in far worse shape.

Getting I know, but there seems to be a public perception that e-collar trainers are continually "frying" their dogs, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. The vast majority (99%) of training is done with level of stimulation that is JUST perceptible to the dog, certainly less then even a mild check chain correction. The only time I have used more stimulation was in an attempt to save the dog's life, namely snake proofing. The value of an e-collar lies not in its ability to deliver a powerful correction (I could deliver a more powerful/painful correction with the toe of my boot if I so desired) but to deliver a precise correction over great distances. Dogs that are 200 meters away (as working gundogs regularly are) can be corrected within (literally) a second of a transgression. I would go so far as to say that these mild and precisely timed e-collar corrections enable dogs to learn faster and with far less discomfort than other methods of training.

I agree with K9 about the e-collars on children angle, how interesting that in discussions about e-collars AR groups are so keen to draw a comparison b/t dogs and human children, but when discussing compulsory de-sexing of animals, they don't want to have a bar of any such comparisons Also either those are very old photographs or the collars they have in the UK are very different to those available in the USA and Oz. Could the injuries in the photo be caused by a e-collar or e-collar battery? I guess anything is possible? All I can say is that when living in the USA I trained with large groups of people in which everybody had at least one e-collar, well over 100 people in the 4 years I was in the USA. I saw some e-collars used in what I consider to be an abusive fashion (jst as I've seen leads, hands, feet etc used in an abusive fashion) and I never, ever saw anything that looked remotely like that!! In fact I never saw anything beyond sores at the point of probe contact, but as K9 has already mentioned, those a pressure point sores caused by misusing the e-collars, and nothing to do with electrical stimulation. Why when these type of reports are put together isn’t there are balanced presentation of the facts, the pros and cons of the issue? OK e-collars are not perfect, but have the saved numerous, difficult to train dogs from being PTS when other training methods have failed. You bet they have. I’m always sceptical of such biased accounts, how can you believe anything they say when they are so one sided and outcome driven? For all I know some idiot could have deliberately poured acid onto that poor dog then blamed it on a faulty e-collar to support their case to ban them.

Kavik, I don't know anything about sheepwork, but when teaching my gundogs stop to whistle, I like to have the dogs sit. IMO sitting is a positive action, the dog has to do something, ie stop running and sit, as opposed to standing, which is basically asking the dog to do nothing, but just stop whatever else it was doing. ie just stop running/walking etc. Re-reading the above, that has to be one of the most confusing paragraphs I've ever written Basically I prefer to teach, whistle = stop running and sit (do something) rather than whistle = stop running, but do nothing other than remain standing. Teach the same way you teach every thing else, start in no distraction environment and work up high distractions. Keep sessions short, always end on a positive, plenty of praise for right behaviour and don't punish until you're CERTAIN the dog knew what was required, but choose to not to do it.

Hi Dasha, Personally I don't have a problem with what you did, but just thought you might not be aware that coursing (chasing game, including rabbits), with a dog is illegal in Oz. Personally I think it's a load of bull, but that is the law, so maybe need to be careful on a public forum like DOL. So what you're saying is that your kelpie accidentally slipped out of your grasp and ignored your recall whistle, eventually the dog did obey and the rabbit escaped. On the way back to you the dog found a second, recently deceased rabbit that died of natural causes, and proudly displayed her find before eating the whole thing. You were really amazed because that sort of thing has never happened to you before :D

I get my 'roo through the proper channels also, the same channels humans have been using on this continent for 40,000-60,000 years!!

My dogs were in Euk Performance and I was very happy, except for the price. Tried switching to Bonny Working Dog, wasn't happy, dogs lost coat condition, bigger stools and perhaps not quite as much energy. I'm now trying "Overlander" from the Great Aussie Pet Food Company, as the name suggests it's a local company, I called them up and had a chat, I liked their answers so I'm giving it a go. They also make a lot of food for racing greyhounds, which interested me as I'm looking for superiour athletic preformance from my dogs. At 25% & 12% the Protein/Fat numbers are pretty high, so less active dogs might become over weight on this food. Anyhow will give it a month or two and see how I like it. I also feed lots of RMBs etc. Anybody interested in the Great Aussie Pet Food Company products see HERE

I like my vet as a person, respect him as a professional and absolutely agree with his right to make a profit by running his business. That said, it is a fact that owners can readily source oral worming treatments from supermarkets and over the internet, whilst vaccinations generally mean a trip to the vet. How much profit vets get from these vaccinisations and how this influences their decision to recommend one product over the other I'm unable to say.

I was in NZ earlier this year and had the opportunity to see some retrievers and spaniels in action - enjoyed it a great deal and was particularly impressed by Bob Whitehead and his Cockers. Rick and Ronnie Smith (of the famous Smith Setters kennel, and two of the best known trainers (particularly of pointing breeds) in the USA, following in the foot steps of their famous pro-trainer father Delmar) have visited NZ to give training seminars several times. Their training methods are very evident in the way a number of Kiwis (both retriever and pointing breed people) train. It's pretty country, that unlike Oz still receives regular rain. The locals are very hospitable and they have some fine dogs, I know you'll enjoy it.

Many thanks, highly value your opinion/knowledge on canine health and very much appreciate your candour

Either your Vet handles the truth carelessly, or he lives in a bubble. Nadia, Are you saying that there is widespread knowledge of problems with this product amongst Oz vets?

I forgot to add the follow resources: The Spaniel Journal is a freely available e-magazine of outstanding quality, it has a diverse range of topics relating to all aspects of "spaniels in the field" including trials, training and hunting. The articles are mainly from American and European authors, although there are several by Aussies also. I highly recommend this outstanding free resource to anybody with any interest in spaniels or field work. Spaniel Journal Click on the name of an author at the bottom of the page to see their article in the current e-magazine, and see the ARCHIVES section for a list of articles that have appeared in previous editions. (Of particular note in the archives section is an article entitled "Field Trialing in Australia" by one of Australia's most successful and knowledgeable working ESS breeders, Rachel Greaves). See the bookstore for a great selection of spaniel books including the 3 I've recommended below In addition I would highly recommend the following books HERE1 HERE2 HERE3 HTH

You're welcome, I'm always happy help somebody get a start in working gundogs. Besides as with all sports, the introduction of new people is the key to our long term survival, so don't feel that you've asked any silly questions, or that you're wasting anybodies time, the truth is we (working gundog people) need you (or lots of new people like you) in our sport. Best of luck with your Cocker pup, I'm sure that in time he/she will become the very close friend Rex was during youth childhood. I think your plan to start out with obedience and agility is an excellent idea. All working gundogs require a very high level of obedience, it is the foundation upon which everything else is built, no matter if your hunting, in field trials or retrieving trials, obedience is the key to success. The trick is to obtain that obedience without curbing the dog's desire - I think agility will help in this regard. In addition to which every working cocker needs a very high level of fitness and agility. I hope you do pursue your interest in working gundogs further. Attending a retrieving trial should be quite easy for you, there are a number held in your area. So get along and have a look, ask lots of questions and see if you think it's for you.

So sorry for your loss, it's never easy to part with a loved one. When in the US I had a my 3 dogs treated with the annual heart worm injection, all were working gundogs in excellent physically condition and "pretty tough". My Britt experienced considerable pain from this injection, she ran around in circles attempting to bite the site of the injection for 5 mins after the injection and then developed a rash on the site. The vet in the US said it was common for dogs to get a "bit of a sting" from the injection, but my dog's reaction was the worst he'd seen. Naturally since then I've used the monthly heartworm treatment, rather than the injection. I'm back in Oz now and my vet here asked me recently why I still used monthly treatment when the annual injection was so much more convenient. I told him of my experiences in the USA, he said the US formulation was different the one here in Oz? He was also saying that he used a vaccination (designed to illicit an immune response from the body such as antibodies, rather than the injection itself containing a chemical active agent), rather than the chemical based prevention. However, prompted by your post I searched for heartworm vaccinations and turn up very little info, a few sites mentioning an S12 vaccination, but the vast majority were about the chemical based prevention? I will check back with my vet regarding the heartworm injection (vaccination/prevention??) he uses. I'll be sticking with the monthly chewables. Again, sorry for your loss and thanks for taking the time to warn others.