Working_Setters

No it isn't, at this stage, to my knowledge, WS. Although I will be checking out further shortly. Thanks Erny - Would be grateful for a PM if you find out anything new. TIA

Cosmolo - do you know if this seminar is being given anywhere else in Oz? TIA

Forgot to add that I think a combination of positive and negative is a completely natural/normal way for all animals to learn about the world. Do something "right" get a reward, food, warmth, companionship etc, do something "wrong" and go hungry, get eaten, some other physical/mental suffering. Think of a wild dog pack, how do those pups learn right and wrong, if not from a combination of positive and negative outcomes. Same with the way balanced trainers train.

Congrats Cosmo, Erny, Jeff and Myszka excellent posts There's probably no need for me to add anything, but here’s a couple of thoughts anyway That would include me, although I prefer the term “balanced trainer”. I think of it this way, as an open minded balanced trainer I have a tool box full of dog training tools and techniques, it includes tasty treats, clickers, praise, body language, NILF, TOT, check chains, e-collars, jealously and pack inclusion/exclusion. As a trainer, why would I want to open that box and toss away everything that wasn't purely positive? How would that make me a better/more effective trainer?? Yes, of course!! Traditional/Balanced trainers use plenty of praise (and possibly treats) in their training. I've also attended a clicker training classes. The classes were good, I learnt a lot and this method suited the young spaniel pup I was training at the time. The instructor had a GSD that was very well behaved, would do all sorts of tricks for the class and looked like a great advert for clicker training. However after awhile I got to know the trainer and her GSD, turns out she couldn't let the GSD off-leash outside her backyard. I was living the USA at the time, there are heaps of deer in rural Virginia and this GSD loved to chase them. The trainer had been working for TWO YEARS to try and build a reliable recall so she could let her dog off leash!! Now she was a way better trainer than me, but I could have cured that dog of deer chasing in two days. That's why I'm a balanced trainer and will use all the tools and techniques in my dog training toolbox, it's just a more effective way to train. B/c they work for me, with my dogs in the environments in which we work. Working gundogs have been trained by traditional methods for a couple of centuries, there's no doubt that these techniques are effective. I monitor the global working gundog world quite closely, I’ve travelled and met with working gundog folk in the USA, Canada and NZ. I read widely and spend time on the net, including moderating a working gundog list, AFAIK nobody anywhere in the world is getting better results from their working gundogs than balanced trainers. Believe me some of these folk are rich, smart and highly motivated, if they thought purely positive training would give their dogs an edge in competition, they'd be onto in a flash, but that just aint the case. I think clicker and purely positive are great for teaching dogs all sorts of stuff in relatively uninteresting environments, where you, the activity you're training and the treat you're offering are the most interesting thing around for the dog. I find these techniques fall over in the face of high distractions (see the deer chasing part of my post). Like Cosmo has stated much depends on the type of dog you're training. Working dogs need drive to do their work and bidability to work as a team, it's somewhat the ying and yang that need to be kept in balance. Working dogs that are so biddable they never leave your side, never get out and do their job are obviously not much use, neither are those that are so driven they wont work as the junior member of the team. I find balanced training works very well on these types of dogs. Pet dogs have no need of any drive to perform their work, they can be made a biddable as breeding can make them. I suspect these dogs are much better suited to purely positive training methods than working dogs. IMO it's no coincidence that the rise in the popularity of purely positive training has mirrored the rise in pet only dogs. It's a technique that works well on these super biddable dogs. To me these two statements are contradictory. To me if I say sit and the dog doesn't sit, then the dog is misbehaving (presuming of course that sit has be trained). If a dog chooses to disobey a known command, then IMO the dog is misbehaving This is incorrect. Scientists have trained rats, monkeys etc to do all sorts of exercises using negative stimulation. You "train" cows, sheep, horses etc not to touch an electric fence in a very short time.

I've got some delicious duck recipes, the one done in the Weber with a bourbon and marmalade glaze is a real treat, if they're interested in taking the dog back. Now that the ducks are half plucked, preparation will be so much the easier. :rolleyes: I agree with everybody else, a tough row to hoe given the breed of the dog and new owners who don’t know much about dog training.

I use a form of "time out" I guess you'd call it, in my training. Frequently when training in the field, I'll be running one dog and have another on leash. As soon as the dog that's down (running) performs below my expectation level, I pick them up and turn the second dog loose. If the dog that was down failed in a specific way, ie not stopping to whistle, then there will be a more immediate consequence in addition to being picked up. But if the "failure" was less specific, just generally sloppy work and a below average performance, then I know of no better way to correct this than to show that it will not be tolerated and hence picking up the dog (leash it). The pleasure and delights of running in the field are only available to those that do it my way, time out on the end of a leash awaits those that don't play by these rules. I think the time out, or more specifically the jealousy it creates, can be used to good effect, particularly in dogs that need a bit of "firing up". Perhaps some agility people might train in a similar way?

Some of us are better at that than others! LOL Yep you got me there!!

I agree with you the pup isn't fully developed at 8.5 months. But even at that age pups can run, I guess it would depend on how much of an athlete your friend is, are they running 2km everyday or 10km? I'd choose the dog based on which personality I prefered, as you will hopefully be running with the dog until it's 10-12, a few months either way now it's going to make much difference in the long term (was tempted to say long "run" )

I think you can get a pretty good idea from the quality of the info they post. You don't need to know somebodies real name to know whether or not they know what they're talking about. Also this board is the "public face" of DOL and PMs etc are the "private face". I PM people for additional info on topics they posted on the board, and receive PMs requesting info relating to stuff I've posted, often such an info exchange also leads to the exchange of "real names", email addis and where possible meeting in person. The Oz dog world is pretty small, especially when you start competing, either in shows or performance events, somebody on here is likely to recognise your style or your dogs, even without a real name. So if, for example, somebody was to claim they’re a top trainer b/c they'd achieved A,B,C with their dogs, those claims would be easy to confirm.

I guess you need to determine if the racket is b/c of sep anxiety, or jealousy. Like LL, the problem I have with my dogs is definitely jealousy, dogs B and C are pissed that A is out of the pen and having fun and they aren't, so they voice that opinion. Like LL I solve it by correcting dogs B and C for their inappropriate vocal behaviour. Squirt bottles and water bombs are good for this.

Prika's "foot-long" tongue is only evident when she's hot from running, else she's a perfectly normal looking setter LOL. Not all setters have such huge tongues, in Prika's case it runs in the family and she got hers from her Dam, pictured below.

He is a mover I can vouch for that!! LL - I've had much the same sort of trouble with Zach recently, beautiful control and the appearance that all is well. Then introduce the extra excitement of strange dogs in the field, and bang it's like he can't he the whistle anymore. Proofing for realistic trial-like conditions can be a challenge (pain in the a$$ :D )

The ancestors of a good working dog have been selected primarily for their working desire and ability for 1000 generations, the impact of this genetic legacy is enormous, it shapes everything about the dog, from appearance and conformation to behaviour and thought processes. Training and environment can modified this underlying genetic base only so far. If one of my dogs had gone to a non-hunting home would it be happy? If it were a good home with a skilled trainer, and the dog given appropriate mental and physical stimulation, in the form of agility for example, then yes the dog could be happy. But it would never be entirely fulfilled, would never approach agility with the same burning desire and intensity, the same “very reason for its existence” that it brings to hunting. If you selected a less appropriate activity, say Ob for example, giving the dog its mental stimulation, but denying it physical stimulation in the form large amounts of free running, then no I do not believe the dog would be happy. So IMO the activity you select to replace the original work is of huge importance also. Of course many dogs today do not come from strictly working breeding programs, naturally the altered selection criteria of their ancestors alter the dog’s genetic legacy, often taking the edge off the dog’s desire to perform their original work. Such dogs maybe more “plastic” less driven to perform any one activity and more readily satisfied with a properly trained alternative activity?

I doubt there is any activity that could replace hunting birds for my dogs, no matter how you trained it.

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Hi Tangwyn, I've not trialled so far this year as due to the drought no P/S FTs have been held so far this year, however I'm hopeful that with the recent rains to much of SE Oz, we'll be holding trials over the next couple of months. There aren't any Spaniel/Retriever trials in NSW at present as there are too few rabbits to run them on. However there are indications that rabbits have developed a level of resistance to Myxo and Calicivirus, and that it's the drought that's currently holding rabbit numbers in check. With good winter/spring rain we could see an explosion of rabbit numbers, which while terrible for the environment and farmers, would see the return of Spaniel/Retriever trials to NSW (and Vic, SA, Tas, Qld). There is also the possibility that a Spaniel/Retriever trial will again be held on pheasants, as was done in SA last year. Lastly there are plenty of retrieving trials running (with spaniels/retrievers competing) that you could watch if they interest you. Lastly, if you're interested to learn more about Spaniels/Retrievers hunting rabbits, PM your details, including location, I'll see if I can put you in contact with a working Spaniel/Retriever person in your area that might take you out in the paddocks and show you the ropes.

The working IS are smaller and have WAY less coat than the show IS, however it must be said that my bitch, Prika, is a little too finely structured and a light coated, even for a working IS. My male, Zach, has a better conformation and coat, (actually I think he's very good looking). He'll give you an idea of a typical working IS, see a couple of pic of Zach HERE

Mine are working bred. There is (unfortunately) a huge split b/t working and show Irish, much more so in the case of the Irish than in most other gundog breeds. Irish are such good looking dogs, they've starred in films and books, been owned by US presidents and widely used in advertising campaigns. All of which means there was/is a tremendous amount of breeding for looks, with no thought to working ability, a sure fire way to destroy a working breed.

Anybody wishing to view pics of my IS bitch training on wild quail can do so HERE Sorry for the double post, but I figured I'm not the only one who rarely goes to the pic section, and these are training pics after all. Cheers, WS

Working Setters, I am interested. Would the above apply, to the old style- when game was a plenty - field trials? Hi LL, Sorry I'm not sure I fully understand what you're asking me. I was suggesting that other forms of dog trials (with the possible exception of herding - about which I know very little) are more artificial than FTs. They are, IMO, further removed from the dogs' original work, and/or modified for the trial format. RTs for example are a great trialing format, a real test for dog and handler, a lot of fun to prepare for and (I imagine) very satisfying to win. However they are still quite artificial, deviating considerably from a "typical day in the field". FTs (in Oz) are run on wild birds. Some seasons (generally when we have good rain) the birds are very abundant and other seasons (generally when we are in drought) trials are cancelled for lack of birds. As I said in the good years (as we had 2 years ago, thanks to late spring rains) there are abundant birds, too many in fact, with the dogs finding them every minute or two, making it impossible to judge running and stamina. Also coveys of 200 birds running in the grass can make scenting very confusing, and lead to some ugly dog work. So I'm not sure about the "old style" part of your question, in an average year there are a good number of quail in Oz to trial on, in a "good year" there are frequently too many birds, and in the lean years (like this year is shaping up to be) there are too few. As far as I can tell from the literature, FTs in Oz today are much the same as the earliest FTs in the UK. A group of enthusiasts take their dogs (and shotgun) to a paddock/moor containing wild birds, and a judge decides which dog is the best on the day. The rules under which the competition is held are pretty simple and much as they were in trials of yesteryear. Sorry if this rambling has completely missed the point of your question - if you'll rephrase for my simple mind to grasp, I'll be happy to have another crack at it.

For me nothing beats training for field trials, in the paddock with the dogs on wild quail. For me it's the "real world", with other trials being a good deal more artificial. I love the nature and the natural world, which is one of the reasons I get such a buzz out of this type of training, I get to appreciate the natural world not only through my own senses, but also through the dogs - which are much more finely attuned than our own. There is also the unpredictability, I never know what I'll come across during a training session and I'm regularly treated to some very special treats of nature. It's the pinnacle of pointers/setter work and now that the cool weather is arriving I'll be in the paddocks a lot more and on the computer a lot less.

I'm not suggesting you correct your dog for coming, quite the opposite, I'm suggesting you correct your dog for NOT coming. If you call and the dog comes, you can't correct, no matter how many times you call, how long it took the dog to respond or what the dog did on the way back. Once the dog gets to you, he has recalled, and therefore obeyed the command, hence no correction. What I'm suggesting is you call once, a good solid recall so you can be sure the dog heard it, then if the dog doesn't recall, you GO TO the dog and correct. Recall is a command, and like all commands it needs to be obeyed, if not there will be a correction (at least that's how I train). What constitutes an appropriate correction is impossible for me to say, each dog is different. Some dogs will cower with a stern look or a firm word, others will need a more physical approach. The correction must fit the dog, not the crime. Your discussion with Erny has unearthed a serious fault in your pack hierarchy, it's going to be hard to get your dog to recall, or do anything else it doesn't feel like doing until you regain the dog's respect. Your praise is a huge card in the training game, and knowing when to play it (and not over playing it) is an important part of training. Making the dog earn the praise is generally the approach I take. I also would never tolerate a dog snatching a treat and running off with it. I'm sure many consider my training methods out dated and simplistic, but to me they are effective and have stood the test of time. Never give a command you can not, or are not prepared to enforce. Start exercises simply and add distractions and complexity. Set the dog up for success and praise when success is achieved. Correct only when you are sure the dog understands the command and is wilfully ignoring it. So you teach (no corrections), then you proof (corrections when required). I correct firmly, I prefer to correct firmly and infrequently, rather than lightly and continually. Maybe back to some basics like TOT and NILIF to regain some respect?

I never said otherwise. Like everybody else on this thread I simply stated my experiences with my dogs. And for what it's worth, Euk also have a global reputation for excellence, websites that extol the virtues of their products and a satisfied customer base with many thousands more customers than Nutro.

Did you say you do Ob as well as agility, if so, there must be somebody at the Ob club that would help you out. It will only take 10 min of their time after the regular class is over. If you don't do Ob, perhaps approach the head instructor at a couple of local clubs, they are usually "doggy people" and you might find one willing to help you. If no luck with the Ob clubs, where do you live, I know there are a number of DOLers with well trained dogs, maybe one of them lives close enough for you to access. I guess if all else fails, you could pay a pro trainer and use their dogs. (If their dogs aren't reliable enough on recall to be of any use, I'd definitely be finding another trainer). Also try training at the dog park, but with a twist. You walk and train your dog on the outside of the fence. Your dog will be plenty distracted by the smell, sight and sound of his old play buddies through the chain link fence, but you'll be able to train with a long line, treats or whatever without interference from the other dogs. Lastly, IMO there are very few people that can train what I consider a reliable recall with 100% positives and treats. Those that can do so by conditioning the dog from a very early age and for you it's too late for that (again IMO). So I would suggest that +90% of the time your dog should be succeeding and you should be praising/rewarding him. But when that 10% come up, you must be prepared to correct and leave no doubt in your dog's mind about the seriousness of it's transgression. You must also be in a position to administer this correction very quickly, as soon as possible after your dog fails to comply. Other mid level distractions, cats, birds, rabbits, food, toys, it really depends on what your dog values. Anything that will tempt your dog not to recall, but not tempt so strongly that he will fail the test regualrly. If all that fails, see a pro and learn how to use an e-collar.

To clarify my post above (and to partly answer FCs question) recall training (like all training) should be exactly that TRAINING not testing. The dog should succeed +90% of the time and receive generous praise for that success, dogs learn by successful repetitions, if they aren't succeeding +90% of the time, then you've set the training bar too high. Don't jump straight from low level distractions to high level distractions, you must spend a lot of time working your way gradually through the mid level distractions. Every now and then you'll test your dog in trying situations, but do so carefully and infrequently as failure to obey the given command can be costly. FC - I'd work on other non-dog mid-level distractions for awhile first, if your dog isn't recalling +90% of the time, there is little use persisting with the current training as all you're teaching the dog is that recall is optional. I agree there is a huge leap b/t Ob class recalls and dog park recalls. One mid-level distraction you might try is to run your dog in an enclosed space with another extremely well trained dog and their owner, then give recall, the extremely good dog will come, making the required behaviour obvious to your dog, and correction easier to apply as now your dog will be on it's own. A good friend of mine trains this way, she has a pack of extremely well trained dogs, she tells me that each new dog that's introduced to the pack is really trained by the pack, since when she hits the stop whistle, the pack sits, and if the newcomer does not, then the incorrect behaviour is obvious and correction easy. Then you can add a second extremely well trained dog to the mix, what you're trying to achieve is a competition b/t the dogs, who can recall the fastest and get the praise/treats for doing so. Dogs, like humans, can be very jealous and I find this jealousy can be an excellent training tool. Lastly -if you dog is free running in a high level distraction environment and you don’t think your dog will recall, then don't give the command. Wait until the dog has run off that initial burst of energy, chased away that seagull, sniffed that other dog, then when it disengages with the distraction and returns (at least some) attention to you, recall. Recall loud and enthusiastically to give most chance for success and much praise when it comes. Don't let your dog lose in a dangerous situation where you can't afford to wait for the right moment to recall.